OFFICIAL (UNOFFICIAL) OFFICIAL PHILLY MINNESOTA VIKINGS PRE GAME MEET UP

[howeda7]

 

  On 1/22/2018 at 2:28 AM, Mr. Brooks said:

Laying an egg in the playoffs means you go home. It's not acceptable to me that they laid an egg. And, it's not just tonight. This is an almost exact continuation of the second half last week.
Elite defenses don't lay an egg in the postseason.
13-3 just doesn't do anything for me, nothing at all. I look at regular season like the qualifiers leading up to the Olympics. Sure, you have to do well to get in, but nobody knows Michael Phelps name if he just has a bunch of awesome qualifiers and does nothing when it matters.

That's just me. I realize many don't agree. Been down this road before. Zero disrespect for those who enjoy the regular season results.

What are you proposing? A tear down of this defense? 

[one_eyed_jack]

 

  On 1/22/2018 at 2:32 AM, howeda7 said:

What are you proposing? A tear down of this defense? 

 

Tearing it down would be drastic, but the fact that they got steamrolled for 6 consecutive quarters in the playoffs cannot be casually dismissed as an anomaly either.  There are issues to be addressed here.

 

It's one thing to get shredded by Brees, but another to get shredded by Nick Foles.

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

The pass rush completely disappeared.  I have no explanation for that but that was putrid how much time they gave Foles.

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/22/2018 at 2:32 AM, howeda7 said:

What are you proposing? A tear down of this defense?

I'm not necessarily proposing anything. Just stating my opinion that this isn't a SB caliber defense.

I don't accept that it's ordinary for a supposedly elite defense to be this awful once the postseason comes. In fact, I'd bet my life savings that Nick Foles won't carve up the Patriots defense like this in 2 weeks, and they have less talent than the Vikings defense does. Talent alone only gets you so far.

Some guys have too much pride to play this far below their talent level on the biggest stage. Some coaches wouldn't accept it.

As for changes? I'd start by upgrading the other safety spot. Sendejo misses far too many routine tackles for me.

I'd let Barr walk too, before he gets expensive. One of the more overrated players, IMO. He was a beast his first 2 years. Then, I don't know if injuries, or complacency, or both got him, but he's an ordinary player now.

I'd like to see them add a second good CB. I actually thought Waynes improved this year, but I'm still not sure he's an every snap caliber corner. And, Alexander is awful. He'll be out of football shortly. Adding another good CB would allow Waynes to take Alexander's snaps.

Finally, I'd try to add a pass rush threat on the interior of the line.

We all hoped Floyd would have been that guy, but that ship sailed a long time ago. Griffen is great, Hunter has talent, but disappears for long stretches. More pressure up the middle would take some pressure off those two guys.

Finally, and I can't know who from the outside, but some of these guys clearly quit, and/ or didn't show up at all today.

I'd think the coaching staff knows who those guys are, and I hope they have the guts to move a talented player or two if they know they quit in big games.

[howeda7]

 

  On 1/22/2018 at 2:55 AM, Mr. Brooks said:

I'm not necessarily proposing anything. Just stating my opinion that this isn't a SB caliber defense.
I don't accept that it's ordinary for a supposedly elite defense to be this awful once the postseason comes. In fact, I'd bet my life savings that Nick Foles won't carve up the Patriots defense like this in 2 weeks, and they have less talent than the Vikings defense does. Talent alone only gets you so far.
Some guys have too much pride to play this far below their talent level on the biggest stage. Some coaches wouldn't accept it.
As for changes? I'd start by upgrading the other safety spot. Sendejo misses far too many routine tackles for me.
I'd let Barr walk too, before he gets expensive. One of the more overrated players, IMO. He was a beast his first 2 years. Then, I don't know if injuries, or complacency, or both got him, but he's an ordinary player now.
I'd like to see them add a second good CB. I actually thought Waynes improved this year, but I'm still not sure he's an every snap caliber corner. And, Alexander is awful. He'll be out of football shortly. Adding another good CB would allow Waynes to take Alexander's snaps.
Finally, I'd try to add a pass rush threat on the interior of the line.
We all hoped Floyd would have been that guy, but that ship sailed a long time ago. Griffen is great, Hunter has talent, but disappears for long stretches. More pressure up the middle would take some pressure off those two guys.
Finally, and I can't know who from the outside, but some of these guys clearly quit, and/ or didn't show up at all today.
I'd think the coaching staff knows who those guys are, and I hope they have the guts to move a talented player or two if they know they quit in big games.

There's certainly tweaks to be made. Barr is invisible too often. Rhodes can't stay on the field. But I think Hunter, Joseph, Kenricks, Smith is a pretty good core. 

[Mr. Brooks]

Zimmer declines to talk to the media. Way to stand up and face the music. Embarassing. He seemed more than happy to talk to the media last week after a win.

[TheLeviathan]

Barr has been a RB and TE neutralizer all year.  Waynes has been good for most of the season.  

 

I don't know what happened the last 6 quarters, but the defense the first 16 games was absolutely elite, SB caliber. 

[Vanimal46]

  On 1/22/2018 at 2:59 AM, Mr. Brooks said:

Zimmer declines to talk to the media. Way to stand up and face the music. Embarassing. He seemed more than happy to talk to the media last week after a win.

He's speaking to Greg Coleman on KFAN right now.

[gunnarthor]

The team has a good core to build around, no need to over-react to one bad loss. They need to get a good offensive line though. It'll be nice to see the team with Cook back.

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/22/2018 at 3:00 AM, Vanimal46 said:

He's speaking to Greg Coleman on KFAN right now.

Should have been more specific. Declines to talk to Fox.

[Vanimal46]

  On 1/22/2018 at 3:02 AM, gunnarthor said:

The team has a good core to build around, no need to over-react to one bad loss. They need to get a good offensive line though. It'll be nice to see the team with Cook back.

Yep. Need upgrades at both guard positions. And they need to make the right decision at QB.

 

After tonight I don't know what to do.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 1/22/2018 at 3:02 AM, gunnarthor said:

The team has a good core to build around, no need to over-react to one bad loss. They need to get a good offensive line though. It'll be nice to see the team with Cook back.

 

The team will have a lot of money to spend.

 

I say go get Cousins.

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/22/2018 at 3:00 AM, TheLeviathan said:

Barr has been a RB and TE neutralizer all year. Waynes has been good for most of the season.

 

I don't know what happened the last 6 quarters, but the defense the first 16 games was absolutely elite, SB caliber.

Well unfortunately, the SB isn't played in the first 16 weeks.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 1/22/2018 at 3:04 AM, Mr. Brooks said:

Well unfortunately, the SB isn't played in the first 16 weeks.

 

All of the points you made in support of your point involved the entire season, if you want to talk specific failures the last 6 quarters we can.  Or we can use the entire season...which would you like to do?

 

If it's the whole season, most of your post was just flat mistaken.  If it was the last 6 quarters you could've saved 200 words and said "They all stunk"

[gunnarthor]

 

  On 1/22/2018 at 3:03 AM, TheLeviathan said:

The team will have a lot of money to spend.

 

I say go get Cousins.

I like that idea but I think they go with a cheaper option at QB - maybe bring back Keenum or Bradford or Teddy - and spend money on the rest of the roster. But if they don't improve the OL, they better get a mobile QB.

 

I'm hoping Hunter makes a big jump next year. He has all the talent in the world, he could be a huge force if he was more consistent.

[Mike Sixel]

OL, DL, DB....I go with Teddy. Keenum is Trent Dilfer, maybe, at best.

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/22/2018 at 3:05 AM, TheLeviathan said:

All of the points you made in support of your point involved the entire season, if you want to talk specific failures the last 6 quarters we can. Or we can use the entire season...which would you like to do?

 

If it's the whole season, most of your post was just flat mistaken. If it was the last 6 quarters you could've saved 200 words and said "They all stunk"

Well I'm sorry that opinions can be "mistaken". I certainly wouldn't say that about another posters opinions, but whatever.

I don't get paid to evaluate players, so I don't really care if my opinions on specific players are accurate or not. The only thing I care is that the people in the organization who do get paid to evaluate the players get it straightened out.

This self evidently isn't a SB caliber defense. A great regular season defense sure, but clearly not even close to competing deep into the playoffs.

 

I agree with the poster above who thinks this can't just be casually dismissed as some random anomaly. Others disagree, that's fine. I'm not trying to disparage that opinion, I just don't feel the same way.

Barr disappeared today, Waynes was awful, and the pass rush was non-existent, so I disagree that those points only regarded the 16 regular season games. Yes, so did most others, but i was asked specifically if that means blow it all up, and I don't think that's realistic, so I chose the players who I thought were the worst offenders.

[TheLeviathan]

Players can have bad games. They didnt play well at all, but over reactions to any one game are almost always mistaken.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 1/22/2018 at 3:11 AM, gunnarthor said:

I like that idea but I think they go with a cheaper option at QB - maybe bring back Keenum or Bradford or Teddy - and spend money on the rest of the roster. But if they don't improve the OL, they better get a mobile QB.

 

I'm hoping Hunter makes a big jump next year. He has all the talent in the world, he could be a huge force if he was more consistent.

 

Hunter took a step back this season and that did surprise me.  

 

We have the money to go out and add to the offensive line and I'd be ok with that, but at this point I'd rather let Keenum, Bradford, and Teddy go and roll with a QB like Cousins.  This is a SB caliber defense, the win-it-all move is to get the best available QB and go for it.

[ashbury]

  On 1/22/2018 at 3:15 AM, Mike Sixel said:

OL, DL, DB....I go with Teddy. Keenum is Trent Dilfer, maybe, at best.

Oh great. So we get to hear him pontificate for years and years after his career is over, about the human element or whatever it was that Dilfer was always blathering about?

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/22/2018 at 3:20 AM, TheLeviathan said:

Players can have bad games. They didnt play well at all, but over reactions to any one game are almost always mistaken.

I get that, but one bad game is all it takes to end your season. So, playoffs are often going to end from one bad game.

The playoffs are not the same as the regular season, IMO. The other side of the coin is that you risk not reacting at all. I think it would be a mistake for the FO to conclude that there is no evaluation to be taken away from these last 2 games.

 

Maybe they bring back the same defense, and next year they lock it down in the playoffs. Could happen. I'll be the first one in here to say I was wrong and give all kinds of credit if it happens.

[D. Hocking]

Damn - forgot about 99 year old Millie.  Now I am depressed.  At least she saw an exciting game last week.

 

.http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2018/01/21/millie-wall-still-a-fan/

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 1/22/2018 at 3:38 AM, Mr. Brooks said:

I get that, but one bad game is all it takes to end your season. So, playoffs are often going to end from one bad game.
The playoffs are not the same as the regular season, IMO. The other side of the coin is that you risk not reacting at all. I think it would be a mistake for the FO to conclude that there is no evaluation to be taken away from these last 2 games.

Maybe they bring back the same defense, and next year they lock it down in the playoffs. Could happen. I'll be the first one in here to say I was wrong and give all kinds of credit if it happens.

 

I think there are changes to be made, but only one of your suggestions is one I'd agree with.  Just to take them one at a time:

 

Barr appears to "disappear" because he isn't making splash plays.  Yeah, it'd be nice if he had more, but he is the guy (along with Kendricks) in charge of shutting down backs and tight ends.  And the two of them were flat out amazing at that this year.  

 

Waynes was really good for one of the most targeted players in the NFL.  

 

But you are right that the teams needs more push on pass rushes up the middle.  That is an area I hope they look at.  

 

After that I don't think there is an explanation for today but this: they were flat.  They stunk.  It unfortunately happens, even to the best.

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/22/2018 at 3:43 AM, TheLeviathan said:

I think there are changes to be made, but only one of your suggestions is one I'd agree with. Just to take them one at a time:

 

Barr appears to "disappear" because he isn't making splash plays. Yeah, it'd be nice if he had more, but he is the guy (along with Kendricks) in charge of shutting down backs and tight ends. And the two of them were flat out amazing at that this year.

 

Waynes was really good for one of the most targeted players in the NFL.

 

But you are right that the teams needs more push on pass rushes up the middle. That is an area I hope they look at.

 

After that I don't think there is an explanation for today but this: they were flat. They stunk. It unfortunately happens, even to the best.

Well to my eye, Kendricks gets the credit for that. He's a beast.

I don't see what you do regarding Barr. I see him out of position all the time. I also don't think it's fair to discount the splash plays. Splash plays matter too. They change games. A couple splash plays early on defense might have changed the tone of this game.

 

I admitted that Waynes improved, and maybe he'll continue to. I just don't agree that he was really good, only compared to how bad he was last year at times.

I don't think he's a bad corner, just think this team would be a lot better if he was covering the third option instead of the second.

 

You didn't address Sendejo, but I think he's awful, and I think that'll be one of the first positions they upgrade this off-season. And I predict that Sendejo will struggle to make a 53 man roster as a special team/ depth contributor.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 1/22/2018 at 4:07 AM, Mr. Brooks said:

Well to my eye, Kendricks gets the credit for that. He's a beast.
I don't see what you do regarding Barr. I see him out of position all the time. I also don't think it's fair to discount the splash plays. Splash plays matter too. They change games. A couple splash plays early on defense might have changed the tone of this game.

I admitted that Waynes improved, and maybe he'll continue to. I just don't agree that he was really good, only compared to how bad he was last year at times.
I don't think he's a bad corner, just think this team would be a lot better if he was covering the third option instead of the second.

You didn't address Sendejo, but I think he's awful, and I think that'll be one of the first positions they upgrade this off-season. And I predict that Sendejo will struggle to make a 53 man roster as a special team/ depth contributor.

 

I think you saw how much Sendejo mattered last week.  When he went out, the secondary took a big step backward.  

 

You are way, way off in your evaluation of him.  He's far exceed expectations and is an understated part of the pass defense.  

 

The defense needs a better 3 technique and to work on creating turnovers.  But I'm more worried about the offense next year, we need a QB.

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/22/2018 at 4:10 AM, TheLeviathan said:

I think you saw how much Sendejo mattered last week. When he went out, the secondary took a big step backward.

 

You are way, way off in your evaluation of him. He's far exceed expectations and is an understated part of the pass defense.

 

The defense needs a better 3 technique and to work on creating turnovers. But I'm more worried about the offense next year, we need a QB.

You may be right, we'll see.

Smith and Rhodes are both future HOF, so if Sendejo and Waynes are as great as you suggest, then it seems like we should have a historically good pass defense, and it shouldn't matter what our offense is doing.

[TheLeviathan]

  On 1/22/2018 at 4:17 AM, Mr. Brooks said:

You may be right, we'll see.

Smith and Rhodes are both future HOF, so if Sendejo and Waynes are as great as you suggest, then it seems like we should have a historically good pass defense, and it shouldn't matter what our offense is doing.

By virtually every metric, in an era of offensive domination, we were historically good.

[Badsmerf]

  On 1/22/2018 at 2:55 AM, Mr. Brooks said:

I'm not necessarily proposing anything. Just stating my opinion that this isn't a SB caliber defense.

I don't accept that it's ordinary for a supposedly elite defense to be this awful once the postseason comes. In fact, I'd bet my life savings that Nick Foles won't carve up the Patriots defense like this in 2 weeks, and they have less talent than the Vikings defense does. Talent alone only gets you so far.

Some guys have too much pride to play this far below their talent level on the biggest stage. Some coaches wouldn't accept it.

As for changes? I'd start by upgrading the other safety spot. Sendejo misses far too many routine tackles for me.

I'd let Barr walk too, before he gets expensive. One of the more overrated players, IMO. He was a beast his first 2 years. Then, I don't know if injuries, or complacency, or both got him, but he's an ordinary player now.

I'd like to see them add a second good CB. I actually thought Waynes improved this year, but I'm still not sure he's an every snap caliber corner. And, Alexander is awful. He'll be out of football shortly. Adding another good CB would allow Waynes to take Alexander's snaps.

Finally, I'd try to add a pass rush threat on the interior of the line.

We all hoped Floyd would have been that guy, but that ship sailed a long time ago. Griffen is great, Hunter has talent, but disappears for long stretches. More pressure up the middle would take some pressure off those two guys.

Finally, and I can't know who from the outside, but some of these guys clearly quit, and/ or didn't show up at all today.

I'd think the coaching staff knows who those guys are, and I hope they have the guts to move a talented player or two if they know they quit in big games.

Exactly my take. This is a good defense, but Sandejo has been bad all year, regardless what Paul Allen says. Between him and Waynes, plays are always made in them. Smith even took a step back.

 

Regardless, I put this big of a loss on Zimmer. This doesn't happen to elite coaches. Look what happened when they Steelers, Patriots, Saints got down by a lot... They stopped the bleeding and pulled the game into reach. This was a flat out disaster for this defense. 38 unanswered points. The defense has some soft spots, but putting your offense down big against an equally solid defense is a death sentence.

 

See what they do with the qb situation. I want no part of teddy or Bradford. Go with keenum or find someone else. Keenum was one of the top qbs this year, and won a bunch of games. Sticky spot for Spielman.

[DaveW]

This one Hurt.

 

I really thought this would be the one year we would make the super bowl in my life.

 

The NFL will fold (or be a shell of what it was) within the next 20-25 years

 

This team will never win a super bowl.

 

****

[h2oface]

The good news? There will be NO five time Super Bowl Loser ....this year! And.... the Vikings won't be pressed to make the foolish decision to franchise Case Keenum.