Miguel Sano accused of assault by photographer

[bunsen82]

 

The whole point is to believe the victims version and not the people in the position of power. The victims don't want to ruin careers or lives but get justice for their assaults.

What is she going to do? Call up Falvine and lodge a complaint? Perpetrators of sexual assault deserve the publics scorn because their actions are vile. If there are no public repercussions, what's to stop Sano from continuing on?

That is exactly what I am saying- not Falvine but Twins who would then direct to the corporate compliance officer.  Or call the police go through that route. The Twins have a public phone number.  Phone Number: (612) 659-3400 (right on there website).  Most companies also have a hotline number. 

 

Your on a slippery slope though Comrade.  If someone makes a false or lets say incorrect allegation against you, it is put out on the public, you are stating it is okay for you to potentially lose your job, have public ridicule, have your kids harassed based on your your opinion all individuals who have a claim against them are vile, and that there is no variability in the severity of the claim or whether it is actually true - everyone gets the same punishment.  The problem is this kind of occurred while she is employed.  My guess is she has some type of contract that states any type of greivances should go through corporate compliance.  That is standard.  I understand what a lot of you are saying but this isnt as black and white as we would like it to be. 

[bunsen82]

 

She isn't suing him or pressing charges.

 

An investigation in MLB has already started, I am guessing a criminal case is already started and they are going to go question her and see if she is willing to cooperate.  She has some potential liability of a lawsuit from not only Sano but the 1st base coach - she negatively affected both of their reputations.  Her biggest chip is to have a lawyer possibly file a lawsuit and both sides dismiss their claims.  Her life is going to be upside down based on her decision to go this way.   Yes she technically has the right to do this, but there could be some ramifications. A lawyer may also talk her into a lawsuit saying this has caused your reputation to also take a hit and your possible future employment opportunities will not be great.  She made the claim nothing further will occur, yet in actuality I bet it all occurs. 

[Doomtints]

 

An investigation in MLB has already started, I am guessing a criminal case is already started and they are going to go question her and see if she is willing to cooperate.  She has some potential liability of a lawsuit from not only Sano but the 1st base coach - she negatively affected both of their reputations.  Her biggest chip is to have a lawyer possibly file a lawsuit and both sides dismiss their claims.  Her life is going to be upside down based on her decision to go this way.   Yes she technically has the right to do this, but there could be some ramifications. A lawyer may also talk her into a lawsuit saying this has caused your reputation to also take a hit and your possible future employment opportunities will not be great.  She made the claim nothing further will occur, yet in actuality I bet it all occurs. 

 

Sigh.

 

[Comrade Bork]

That is exactly what I am saying- not Falvine but Twins who would then direct to the corporate compliance officer. Or call the police go through that route. The Twins have a public phone number. Phone Number: (612) 659-3400 (right on there website). Most companies also have a hotline number.

 

Your on a slippery slope though Comrade. If someone makes a false or lets say incorrect allegation against you, it is put out on the public, you are stating it is okay for you to potentially lose your job, have public ridicule, have your kids harassed based on your your opinion all individuals who have a claim against them are vile, and that there is no variability in the severity of the claim or whether it is actually true - everyone gets the same punishment. The problem is this kind of occurred while she is employed. My guess is she has some type of contract that states any type of greivances should go through corporate compliance. That is standard. I understand what a lot of you are saying but this isnt as black and white as we would like it to be.

 

I think believing the victim is more about not dismissing their claims out of hand in order to open a dialog rather than using their statements as judge jury and executioner.

 

Edit: I get what you are saying. Why do you think she chose not to go through regular grievance procedures at the time?

[bunsen82]

Do

 

Sigh.

Lets look at this a different way.  Doomtints, she has now had to put privacy on her twitter and facebooks accounts.  She has been hassled, She has people questioning her and probably has received some threats.  She got this off her chest she says to "free herself" of this incident.  She is not free, her life is going to be a roller coaster ride for the near future, and anytime anyone googles her name this is going to pop up.  For future employment, background check ect.  I doubt she will want to be reminded of this 10, 15 20 years down the road and my guess is she regrets the way she did this, maybe not necessarily that people will see what she thinks Sano actually is. He may be a monster, or he may have been an entitled 21 year old who needs a really big wake up call. 

 

My biggest concern is I feel like the opinion on this board is he is a rapist or a physical abuser.  He very well may be but this story, alone and on the information provided does not get near those levels.  At worst he has a misdemeanor assault which is less than an OWI. 

[bunsen82]

 

I think believing the victim is more about not dismissing their claims out of hand in order to open a dialog rather than using their statements as judge jury and executioner.

Edit: I get what you are saying. Why do you think she chose not to go through regular grievance procedures at the time?

Comrade, honestly she was probably scared, intimidated and likely confused.  The issue is over time ones perception of an incident changes whether she becomes more confident in herself or she began to really see this as an issue.  I believe one of her quotes was she thought this could affect her employment as a photographer at Twins events and other sporting events. 

 

I fully think something occurred, I want to make that clear.  I just don't think it is near what was described yesterday.  I am not the judge and jury on that though. 

[PseudoSABR]

 

I'm not an expert in law, but I suspect that is true. And punches are looked at differently yhan grabs.

There's no time limit or harm threshold.  Those factors are considerations in sentencing.

 

If we accept the facts of her account, regardless of the time limit, he's probably guilty of misdemeanor assault and kidnapping (I don't know Minn. state law, but generally the caselaw is pretty permissive in terms of constitutes confinement (such as chocking).  Typically attempts of a crime are charged as the crime themselves.

 

609.224 ASSAULT IN THE FIFTH DEGREE.
§Subdivision 1.Misdemeanor. Whoever does any of the following commits an assault and is guilty of a misdemeanor:
(1) commits an act with intent to cause fear in another of immediate bodily harm or death; or

(2) intentionally inflicts or attempts to inflict bodily harm upon another.

 

609.25 KIDNAPPING.
Subdivision 1.Acts constituting. Whoever, for any of the following purposes, confines or removes from one place to another, any person without the person's consent or, if the person is under the age of 16 years, without the consent of the person's parents or other legal custodian, is guilty of kidnapping

 

--

Ten minutes may seem like a long time for a single act to occur, but I think we need to stop seeing this as one act by Sano, but rather a serious of acts, where he used a variety of methods to get her to go with him--pulling, pleading, kissing her, mere restraint, joking, smiling, kissing some more, pleading, more pulling, come on babe, just this way, no, no, no, come on, it will be fun etc. etc.--all while holding on to her wrists.  Again, he didn't want to force her to go (he could have simply done that), he wanted to break her will, and for her to relent -- to come with him, to allow the kissing, and god knows what else. 

 

Sano's physical acts are beyond reproach, no matter how we might minimize them--but, I think more importantly, is that those physical acts were executed to wear Betsy down.  He didn't want to hurt her-per se, he wanted to forcibly shape her will to his desires, which, at least for my part, is it's own separate harm aside from the physical injuries she may or may not have received.   I will continue to harp that we need to measure our demand for hard evidence with the reality that abusers operate in such a way that they leave none and only the word of some one whom you wouldn't believe, left traumatized and unreliable.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Do

 

Lets look at this a different way.  Doomtints, she has now had to put privacy on her twitter and facebooks accounts.  She has been hassled, She has people questioning her and probably has received some threats.  She got this off her chest she says to "free herself" of this incident.  She is not free, her life is going to be a roller coaster ride for the near future, and anytime anyone googles her name this is going to pop up.  For future employment, background check ect.  I doubt she will want to be reminded of this 10, 15 20 years down the road and my guess is she regrets the way she did this, maybe not necessarily that people will see what she thinks Sano actually is. He may be a monster, or he may have been an entitled 21 year old who needs a really big wake up call. 

What advice would you give her? Keep it to herself?  If she doesn't desire Sano to be formally punished but rather to share her story because it happened to her (and indeed warn other women about him), she just should have stayed quite?  

 

Her motive isn't simply to get it off her chest (I'm sure she's done that with friends and loved ones) but to contribute to the ongoing effort to stymie the systematic abuse done by men in power. 

 

As you suggest, she shared her story at great personal risk; why not see that as something heroic, that lends itself to the veracity of her account, rather than as a means of criticism?

[Intramural Legend]

 

What advice would you give her? Keep it to herself?  If she doesn't desire Sano to be formally punished but rather to share her story because it happened to her (and indeed warn other women about him), she just should have stayed quite?  

 

Her motive isn't simply to get it off her chest (I'm sure she's done that with friends and loved ones) but to contribute to the ongoing effort to stymie the systematic abuse done by men in power. 

 

As you suggest, she shared her story at great personal risk; why not see that as something heroic, that lends itself to the veracity of her account, rather than as a means of criticism?

 

 

Thank you! The whole point of the #metoo campaign is that it is changing the power dynamics in the world when it comes to treatment of women.  These are going public because that is causing change.  Look at how many people have turned a blind eye on the issue for decades, and it is finally stopping.

 

Work environments, especially those with a strong power dynamic (sports, Hollywood, Politics) need to change.  There is so much money involved that people and organizations will make excuses or ignore the problem. That is finally stopping, and that is a good thing.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I won't comment on her desire for attention, but I do agree with your last point that the method of the accusation was not wise.

She has every right to bring it up on her own time, but she probably should have approached someone in the Twins org, or left the player anonymous in the post. It would have created pressure without creating the instant mess.

If no other evidence comes up or no other accusers emerge, this is going to be ugly.

I think people are conflating their need for punishment with what her desires were in sharing.  She clearly says she doesn't any kind of justice--rather she shared it along with many other women who have in the #metoo campaign.  I think her goal was social awareness, and perhaps to warn people about Sano, not to punish him.  

[drjim]

I think people are conflating their need for punishment with what her desires were in sharing. She clearly says she doesn't any kind of justice--rather she shared it along with many other women who have in the #metoo campaign. I think her goal was social awareness, and perhaps to warn people about Sano, not to punish him.

That's certainly possible, probably likely.

 

My concern with her sharing it in this manner was the blowback she would receive, not what happens to Sano. But she certainly has the right to do things on her own timeline and in her own way.

[bunsen82]

 

What advice would you give her? Keep it to herself?  If she doesn't desire Sano to be formally punished but rather to share her story because it happened to her (and indeed warn other women about him), she just should have stayed quite?  

 

Her motive isn't simply to get it off her chest (I'm sure she's done that with friends and loved ones) but to contribute to the ongoing effort to stymie the systematic abuse done by men in power. 

 

As you suggest, she shared her story at great personal risk; why not see that as something heroic, that lends itself to the veracity of her account, rather than as a means of criticism?

This is what I struggle with, was the demon within herself that she wanted to set free or was it telling the world this happened to her or to let the world know Sano is a slimeball including the 1st base coach.  If it was to say something happened to her state everything she did, leave Sano's name out of it, If she truly wanted nothing to happen to Sano.  I think she wanted to inflict pain, or have him punished for doing something inappropriate.  She should of followed her contract and filed a grievance with the twins, hired a lawyer maybe to guide her through the process, or file a police complaint.  Most likely the statute of limitations is over (1 year), 3 years for a felony charge.  But if you had a zealous public attorney they could try a felony account - even though I don't think there is enough evidence to support.  I understand being afraid but if this was to protect other women, you gave him 2 more years of free reign.  

 

As a note, I am more concerned on the 1st base coach.  He deserves no mention in a Metoo post. She gives enough information to decipher who it is.  Nothing he did falls in that category in my mind.  Why mention him? 

[adorduan]

 

Whether it was 10 minutes or 1 minute, does it matter?

yes, it absolutely matters. if that was an exaggeration, what else might she have exaggerated in the story?  DETAILS MATTER,  and it's why these things should be reported immediately.

[Twins33]

6. If the story as told is basically true, and I want to give Sano some benefit of his actions, it is not a huge stretch to see this as mostly a cultural misunderstanding, albeit an aggressive one that caused trauma. Young male Latinos can be aggressive, there is a language barrier, and he might not have understood societal cues. I'm not sure what to do with that.

This is the part I have a problem with that makes Sano seem dumber than he actually is just because he's not from here.

 

Saying no and pulling away means the same thing in any language. No means the same thing in Spanish as it does in English so that's where this starts to fall apart. And how can trying to get away mean anything other than "trying to get away or "stop" or "get away from me"? How can that be interpreted in any culture as "please, do it more. I like it."

 

 

 

As a note, I am more concerned on the 1st base coach.  He deserves no mention in a Metoo post. She gives enough information to decipher who it is.  Nothing he did falls in that category in my mind.  Why mention him?

 

If you hit on a woman constantly and she does not reciprocate then you are harassing her. Whether it's sexual harassment or regular harassment, it is still harassment. This isn't a "hi, how are you." She said he hit on her many times. This was unwanted. That is harassment. Men need to learn to stop doing this. It's not okay.

[one_eyed_jack]

 

I think people are conflating their needfor punishment with what her desires were in sharing.  She clearly says she doesn't any kind of justice--rather she shared it along with many other women who have in the #metoo campaign.  I think her goal was social awareness, and perhaps to warn people about Sano, not to punish him.  

 

When you choose to go to Twitter with something like that, you have to accept that you don't have control over the outcome, and your motives for coming forward aren't really relevant.  The Twitterverse will do with it what it wants, it does not ask why and it is unconcerned with what you want out of it.   I'm sorry if this sounds insensitive, I don't mean it as a criticism of Betsy,, and I take no position on whether this was a good or bad way for her to share her story.   I'm just pointing out the realities of going directly to social media.

[drjim]

When you choose to go to Twitter with something like that, you have to accept that you don't have control over the outcome, and your motives for coming forward aren't really relevant. The Twitterverse will do with it what it wants, it does not ask why and it is unconcerned with what you want out of it. I'm sorry if this sounds insensitive, I don't mean it as a criticism of Betsy,, and I take no position on whether this was a good or bad way for her to share her story. I'm just pointing out the realities of going directly to social media.

I agree with this. Once she posted on social media and named names, she lost control.

[drjim]

This is the part I have a problem with that makes Sano seem dumber than he actually is just because he's not from here.

 

Saying no and pulling away means the same thing in any language. No means the same thing in Spanish as it does in English so that's where this starts to fall apart. And how can trying to get away mean anything other than "trying to get away or "stop" or "get away from me"? How can that be interpreted in any culture as "please, do it more. I like it."

 

 

 

If you hit on a woman constantly and she does not reciprocate then you are harassing her. Whether it's sexual harassment or regular harassment, it is still harassment. This isn't a "hi, how are you." She said he hit on her many times. This was unwanted. That is harassment. Men need to learn to stop doing this. It's not okay.

I don't think we know exactly what was said.

 

And a 22 year old embodiment of machismo is probably going to interpret things different than you. It has little to do with intelligence.

[Twins33]

I don't think we know exactly what was said.

And a 22 year old embodiment of machismo is probably going to interpret things different than you. It has little to do with intelligence.

No we don't know what all was said, but she said that she said no. And if Sano, or anyone who does this kind of thing, interprets no as meaning yes then there is something wrong with them. And the way they interact with people needs to change.

[drjim]

No we don't know what all was said, but she said that she said no. And if Sano, or anyone who does this kind of thing, interprets no as meaning yes then there is something wrong with them. And the way they interact with people needs to change.

It absolutely needs to change. I would hope that, if nothing else, this situation will inspire him to take a long look at how he treats people, and ideally inspire change in the rest of baseball and beyond.

[Vanimal46]

We've been dissecting the Sano account to death so far... Very little has been discussed about the first base coach. That account should certainly have MULTIPLE eye witnesses if it happened while she was in the photo well.

 

No Twins players have stepped up yet to confirm that story. There would certainly be Twins players and other photographers seeing this happen. Why is this part of the story silent?

[Jerr]

 

We've been dissecting the Sano account to death so far... Very little has been discussed about the first base coach. That account should certainly have MULTIPLE eye witnesses if it happened while she was in the photo well.

No Twins players have stepped up yet to confirm that story. There would certainly be Twins players and other photographers seeing this happen. Why is this part of the story silent?

I would say because Sano is the big name, but I'm sure the investigation will involve her reports on that coach. Long ways to go with this, as nothing is "factual" now. It is one of the he said/she said scenarios for the time being.

 

[ashbury]

I would say because Sano is the big name, but I'm sure the investigation will involve her reports on that coach. Long ways to go with this, as nothing is "factual" now. It is one of the he said/she said scenarios for the time being.

Also the coach has been gone for a season now, while the player is still employed by the team. It would be great for it to come out that this kind of malarkey factored in any way to his being replaced. OTOH it only would spell out that capable coaches are somewhat a dime a dozen, while a top tier talent can't be so easily replaced if there are character issues dogging him.

 

I hope the investigation looks into all these troubling aspects of the organization. The Chattanooga ushers' pragmatic approach to handling the situation (and I don't fault them entirely for resorting to it) suggests the culture runs deep. I bet the same could be said for 29 other organizations. Time to clean house. Which means baseball gets another black eye while other equally culpable sports quietly clean their own houses too. (Perhaps.)

[AZTwin]

The comparisons to the President in this thread is a joke. It’s like people don’t think of the actual situation:

 

1) I’ve flown first class. It’s not like it’s some groping section. It would have been a pretty big deal on a flight. Especially if it was someone famous. Did he buy everyone else off?

 

2) what are the chances that the person he sat next to and harassed just so happened to work for the Clinton foundation, is best friends with Hillary Clinton, and decides to come out right before a presidential election against Hillary Clinton?

 

3). This point is more of an honest question... but it’s kind of funny imaging Donald Trump flying commercial. Did companies not charter private jets back then?

[yarnivek1972]

A lot of people are noting that any potential suspension would need to go through the MLBPA. That is true, but if the allegations hold enough truth, I don’t suspect the Union will put up a fight. They have smart people over there. Smart enough to pick their battles. I suspect this is one battle they want nothing to do with.

 

One other thing, Sano is now in a position where he needs to maximize his baseball salary. He has zero value to any company to promote their product.

[jsteve96]

 

A lawyer may also talk her into a lawsuit saying this has caused your reputation to also take a hit and your possible future employment opportunities will not be great.  She made the claim nothing further will occur, yet in actuality I bet it all occurs. 

No Lawyer is going to talk her into a lawsuit for her reputation. Thats an automatic loss. She came out on twitter on her own.

[laloesch]

 

That's certainly possible, probably likely.

My concern with her sharing it in this manner was the blowback she would receive, not what happens to Sano. But she certainly has the right to do things on her own timeline and in her own way.

 

Actually that's not true if she is seeking criminal or civil action for assault.  The statue of limitation is 2 years from the date of the accusation.

[laloesch]

 

We've been dissecting the Sano account to death so far... Very little has been discussed about the first base coach. That account should certainly have MULTIPLE eye witnesses if it happened while she was in the photo well.

No Twins players have stepped up yet to confirm that story. There would certainly be Twins players and other photographers seeing this happen. Why is this part of the story silent?

 

Not only that with all the media, security and staff around if she was truly screaming at the top of her lungs for ten minutes while fighting him outside a public restroom as she claims there is NO WAY in hell that someone didn't hear this taking place and didn't respond. On top of that if Sano did try and assault her and rough housed her trying to get her into a bathroom why didn't she file a criminal report with police the day the alleged event occurred?  I'm sorry if some guy assaults you and attempts to rape you in a public restroom you call the police and report him.  I don't care what anyone says I just don't buy this story the way it's currently being told.  

[SweetOne69]

 

Actually that's not true if she is seeking criminal or civil action for assault.  The statue of limitation is 2 years from the date of the accusation.

 

I'm not sure what the statute of limitations are,but I'm positive it is from the date of the "crime" not the accusation.

[laloesch]

 

I'm not sure what the statute of limitations are,but I'm positive it is from the date of the "crime" not the accusation.

 

That is incorrect. 

 

For statute-of-limitations purposes, the clock normally starts to tick when the claim arises. Courts sometimes refer to this starting point as the “accrual” of the “cause of action”; it’s the moment at which the plaintiff has a basis to sue. (Certain events and circumstances can delay or “toll” statutes of limitations, essentially lengthening the time period for bringing a claim.)

[Squirrel]

 

Actually that's not true if she is seeking criminal or civil action for assault.  The statue of limitation is 2 years from the date of the accusation.

She made it very clear she was seeking neither. She was just telling her story.