Article: Tunnels And The Hall: Mauer and Santana

[jud6312]

 

Your mean spirited characterization of Mauer certainly hints at your bias. Why is the celery stuff necessary? It distracts from the quality of your argument.

Banks and Mauer were certainly different hitters. The MVPs might matter but voters might realize that there were 8 teams in the NL in Ernie's prime and 14 teams in the AL in Joe’s prime. Ernie never once played in the post season. Though a team thing, it must have weighed on voters.

Relative to their rank at their original position, there is little to distinguish them. Joe still needs to keep putting up league average years through about age 37 to match the longevity of Banks.

Celery is mean-spirited? Really?

 

Actually, there's nothing wrong with celery, it's just pretty bland. Joe is good, but let's face it - he's not exactly charismatic or engaging or memorable outside of Minnesota. People remembered "Let's play two," but will they remember "nobody wants to hear me rap"?

 

Nobody - or very few - beyond our fair borders will care that's he local or played for only one team or his "ah shucks" nature. They'll remember the early brilliance and the decline into a solid defensive and below average offensive corner infielder.

 

As much as we hate to admit that the "antiquated" counting stats don't count, they still do - at least the "big" ones. Joe might have comparable OPS, OPS+, WAR, etc. to several HOFers, but his lack of "glory" numbers, major milestone numbers, and post-season mediocrity is going to outweigh a lot of those more favorable metrics.

 

Celery is a good source of fiber, but when given the option a lot of people are going to choose the burger or slice of pizza instead.

[Doomtints]

Ernie Banks was the face of the Cubs for years. He was an incredibly popular player.

 

Banks's stats check all the boxes for HOF consideration.

 

His career was longer than Mauer's will be.

 

I'm not sure how one could compare Mauer to Banks in any shape or form. One may as well compare Mauer to Babe Ruth.

[jud6312]

 

Ernie Banks was the face of the Cubs for years. He was an incredibly popular player.

 

Banks's stats check all the boxes for HOF consideration.

 

His career was longer than Mauer's will be.

 

I'm not sure how one could compare Mauer to Banks in any shape or form. One may as well compare Mauer to Babe Ruth.

Yeah, but did Ernie Banks have one of these?

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Qp-alJ6_OHg/S9bFbV5bGsI/AAAAAAAAD5Y/oNsO1PD2DJo/s1600/Joe%20Mauer%20Quick%20Swing%20Baseball%20Training%20Machine.jpg

[jmlease1]

 

Any thesis supporting someone for induction to the HOF, which has 'what ifs' as its major arguments, it is a detriment to that player's candidacy.

 

Johan Santana and Joe Mauer were dominant for about 5-6 seasons each.

 

That's not a hall of fame career.    Santana's and Mauer's career kinda mirror Doc Gooden's and Dale Murphy's / Don Mattingly's.  With those guys out of the Hall plus others like Dave Parker, Mike Mussina, etc out of the Hall, Santana and Mauer, just does not deserve it.

 

 

Considering Mauer already has a higher bWAR (53.4 v 46.2) & fWAR (48.1 v 44.3) than Dale Murphy in 4 less seasons, I'm not sure it's a great comp. If Mauer adds another 5-6 WAR in the next 2-3 seasons that's a pretty significant difference.

 

Mattingly played the same number of seasons as Joe (to this point), but Mauer again was better: (53.4 v 42.2 bWAR; 48.1 v 40.7 fWAR). Beyond that Mauer is still likely to keep playing for another few years to add to his total. After last season do you really expect him to put up negatives? 

 

the narrative is different as well: After being the consensus best catcher in the game, Mauer was forced to change positions because of injury and turned himself into a fine defensive 1B while still continuing to get on base at an elite level through walks and line drives. with Murphy the narrative is more like: after being one of the best CF in the game, Murphy turned 31 and went into a rapid and steep decline that he never recovered from. Mattingly: after an amazing start to his career, Mattingly became an average to above average starter in the league before injuries wiped out the real decline phase of his career.

 

remember, mauer was having another outstanding season at catcher in 2013, before the brain injury forced the position change a few years earlier than anyone would have liked. The hardware for them might be pretty similar, but the production really isn't. (and how much extra did Murphy get for playing on TBS and Mattingly for being a goddamn Yankee? That really mattered for awards back then; it's normed out somewhat now.)

 

Mauer had more dominant seasons than Mattingly, about the same as Murphy. Murphy never recovered once he fell from the heights and wasn't a good player at all his last 4 seasons; Mauer is still a productive player. Mattingly wasn't even a player at this point.

 

That said, both Murphy and Mattingly have gotten real consideration for the Hall; both spent 15 years on the ballot. Mauer is better than both and should make the Hall when his time comes. 

 

 

[Doomtints]

 

Yeah, but did Ernie Banks have one of these?

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Qp-alJ6_OHg/S9bFbV5bGsI/AAAAAAAAD5Y/oNsO1PD2DJo/s1600/Joe%20Mauer%20Quick%20Swing%20Baseball%20Training%20Machine.jpg

 

Interesting product. I'm not sure how it would help. If you watch this video, the guy starts his swing before the ball appears. He starts swinging based on the sound. You could literally do this with your eyes closed once you figured out the timing.

Maybe Mauer's shades are just a little too dark?

 

  Edited December 27, 2017 by Doomtints

[AlwaysinModeration]

Phil Miller didn’t vote for Johan.

 

God, I hope LaVelle does. Johan has 3 votes, and is at 2.2%. He really doesn’t deserve to get booted on the first ballot.

[DrNeau]

No HOF for Mauer or Santana.

Edited December 30, 2017 by DrNeau

[KGB]

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mauerjo01.shtml

 

Of the 5 HOF predictors,Mauer is a predicted in only 1. Along with Santana, his best hope is a Veteran's committee. I think it's very difficult to see him getting enough votes from the writers.

[jorgenswest]

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mauerjo01.shtml

Of the 5 HOF predictors,Mauer is a predicted in only 1. Along with Santana, his best hope is a Veteran's committee. I think it's very difficult to see him getting enough votes from the writers.

If that were the standard few catchers would make it. Johnny Bench hits only two on the five predictors and he is the top ranked catcher. Mauer ranks as the number 7 catcher.

[KGB]

If that were the standard few catchers would make it. Johnny Bench hits only two on the five predictors and he is the top ranked catcher. Mauer ranks as the number 7 catcher.

Only a few catchers do make if to the HOF,and Mauer caught less than a 1000 games and will probably end his career playing less than half his games as a catcher. Banking on just the JAWS formula feels like a long shot.

[jorgenswest]

There are 15 catchers in the hall of fame. Mauer is above the median of that group.

[Rhino and Compass]

Ultimately, it's not up to me whether or not he is in the Hall of Fame, but in the case of Joe Mauer, I think Ted boiled it down pretty good. If he is viewed as a catcher first and foremost, it's tough to keep him out.

Of course, I think we have started to learn lately that a good story will get you into the hall of fame, i.e. the argument that the Hall of Fame is a museum that tells the story of baseball. Yes, you have the statistical acumen of your Nolan Ryans and Hank Aarons, but also, Jack Morris and Kirby Puckett are in the hall of fame in large part because of their contribution to a narrative. In that regard, I think Mauer, the face of a franchise for over a decade, also earns some points. Santana? Who knows. There are a lot more good pitchers than good catchers, and it's tough to find the story that would get him in.