Article: Twins Acquire Two Prospects For International Bonus Money

[Twins33]

Anybody know when it was voided? The Twins signed him back in July, and international cap numbers were discussed throughout the rest of the season.

i can't find the tweet, but I believe it was Wolfson who said that Marte came for a physical at the end of Sept and that is when he failed. And then later, I think in November, is when it was all of a sudden reported that the Twins had 3+ million and no one questioned why they had so much since they supposedly had signed Marte.

 

Then it was reported that it was voided and someone said it was his vision.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Why all the kindness for the Angels and the Mariners. We got them between the rock and the hard place. They BOTH need international bonus money in the hope of signing Ohtani and the Twins, now out of that contention, have international money to burn. Why didn't we go for the throat and put the squeeze on both of them for a better return? Seems like we could have done much better. I would like to see the ppitch package prepared by the Twins for Ohtani - Could it have been better? Can we sue him for Scandahoovian Discrimination against the Twins?

They literally traded a $1m 2017 draftee for $1m in fake money.

 

Not sure what you think they could have received that would be more significant than that.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I figured there would be an agreement a contract would be subject to a physical.

My understanding is that pretty much all of these contracts have a "pending a physical" stipulation. They get the contract done because that's the hard part. They worry about the physical later because it's a formality the overwhelming majority of the time.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I'm hoping that the Twins didn't **** over Marte on the hopes of getting a better prospect but I think they did. 

Given that Marte claims there's no hard feelings over the voiding of the contract, this seems unlikely.

 

If the Twins were pulling a fast one and trying to get away with something, it seems to me Marte would have a lot of ill will toward the organization, not brush off the voided contract and say he's open to signing at a reduced amount.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Assuming words match feelings. If he's getting good advice, he may understand that the $3M is gone, but high six-figures may be attainable if he doesn't burn bridges. That realization wouldn't erase a feeling of having been squeezed.

 

I don't know either way. I just don't read much into that statement.

The thing is that there are teams with more than high six figures in international money. If the Twins screwed him over, he would have plenty of other suitors. He was a $3m signing. If nothing is wrong with him, he could easily find another team to give him 1/3rd that money or more.

 

Remember that the Twins just dealt $2m to other teams, at least one of which won't get Ohtani and will be sitting on a pile of cash. If Marte is just fine and everything is no big deal, that org would be insane not to offer him everything they have and get him in the organization.

[ashbury]

The thing is that there are teams with more than high six figures in international money. If the Twins screwed him over, he would have plenty of other suitors. He was a $3m signing. If nothing is wrong with him, he could easily find another team to give him 1/3rd that money or more.

 

Remember that the Twins just dealt $2m to other teams, at least one of which won't get Ohtani and will be sitting on a pile of cash. If Marte is just fine and everything is no big deal, that org would be insane not to offer him everything they have and get him in the organization.

Ok, but this is somewhat conflating pool limits with green dollars.

 

In the case previously mentioned where the Cardinals voided a $3M contract due to vision issues, the kid wound up signing for $500K with Arizona. Obviously this doesn't define anything for Marte, but indicates what can happen to teams' forecasts of future value in light of a bad vision report. Pool dollars may get passed around, but when actual dollars are spent there are many things that can spoil the deal.

[Twins33]

I don't know where to put this so I'm putting it here:

 

http://www.startribune.com/twins-just-missed-on-coveted-baseball-prospect-kevin-maitan/462600173/

 

"Multiple sources have confirmed that the Twins were in the hunt for Maitan, considered the top international prospect in 2016 when he signed with the Braves in for $4.25 million. He's a switch hitting shortstop with a strong arm and good power potential. According to MLB.com, some early comparisons were to Miguel Sano.

 

Maitan signed with the Angels for a reported $2.2 million. Indications are that the Twins offered significantly more than Los Angeles. But someone in Maitan's camp, either Maitan, his family, his agents or a combination of all of them, looked at the Twins farm system and decided to go elsewhere."

 

There is also more words on the two new guys under the link.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Twins33

[Tom Froemming]

 

But if I was Maitan I don't think I'd want to come here unless the Twins were able to overpay, given the glut of shortstops in the system. 

La Velle just confirmed that was exactly the case. Maitan took less to go to the Angels. 

[drjim]

LEN3 reports that the Twins actually offered more than the Angels for Maitan:

 

http://www.startribune.com/twins-just-missed-on-coveted-baseball-prospect-kevin-maitan/462600173/

 

Money quote:

 

 

Maitan signed with the Angels for a reported $2.2 million. Indications are that the Twins offered significantly more than Los Angeles. But someone in Maitan's camp, either Maitan, his family, his agents or a combination of all of them, looked at the Twins farm system and decided to go elsewhere.

 

Also, this tease:

 

 

And they are not done. I've been told that they like their chances to of signing one of the former Braves players who were declared free agents recently. Not as highly regarded as Maitan, but someone they like. So stay tuned.

 

[drjim]

And you all beat me to it.

[Twins33]

And you all beat me to it.

We all obviously have nothing better to do, haha.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Ok, but this is somewhat conflating pool limits with green dollars.

 

In the case previously mentioned where the Cardinals voided a $3M contract due to vision issues, the kid wound up signing for $500K with Arizona. Obviously this doesn't define anything for Marte, but indicates what can happen to teams' forecasts of future value in light of a bad vision report.

Yeah, but that kid actually had a vision problem. He floundered in the low minors and bombed out of baseball. The rumors being bandied about in this thread are suggesting Marte's vision problem isn't that big of a deal.

 

And if it's not the big of a deal, it would require very little money to go get an independent physical and send it to 29 MLB teams, attached with a note "I'll sign for half what the Twins offered me". There are literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars at stake here. If the Twins are dealing dirty, it'd be very easy to prove otherwise and make a boatload of money (while the acquiring team still saves millions).

 

This seems like a pretty clear cut example of Occam's Razor. The Twins said he has a vision problem that will hamper his baseball career, he probably has a vision problem that will hamper his baseball career.

[Dman]

 

Well, I don't know how long Marte has been available -- when exactly was the contract voided? And the international market has shrunk/slowed considerably this time of year , so perhaps Marte can take his time deciding. I mean, if he just had a $3 mil deal voided, he may not have much incentive to jump on the first $1 mil offer. (In theory, could he even take his chances next July?)

Sure that is one possibility, but don't you find it strange that no analysts are talking about winning the Jelfry Marte sweepstakes or reporting anything of interest about him other than the voided contract?  Wouldn't there be rumors from his camp that the Twins were jerking him around or the medical was wrong?  Also the Twins have to careful about their reputation or no one will want to sign with them in the future.  I don't think you would want to take a chance like that to get some different prospects.

 

 

[Dman]

 

I don't know where to put this so I'm putting it here:

http://www.startribune.com/twins-just-missed-on-coveted-baseball-prospect-kevin-maitan/462600173/

"Multiple sources have confirmed that the Twins were in the hunt for Maitan, considered the top international prospect in 2016 when he signed with the Braves in for $4.25 million. He's a switch hitting shortstop with a strong arm and good power potential. According to MLB.com, some early comparisons were to Miguel Sano.

Maitan signed with the Angels for a reported $2.2 million. Indications are that the Twins offered significantly more than Los Angeles. But someone in Maitan's camp, either Maitan, his family, his agents or a combination of all of them, looked at the Twins farm system and decided to go elsewhere."

There is also more words on the two new guys under the link.

I think he got good advice.  The Twins are pretty loaded at Short and he has a path of least resistance through the Angels system.  Should give him a faster path to the Majors if he is as good as advertised.

[Otto von Ballpark]

And if it's not the big of a deal, it would require very little money to go get an independent physical and send it to 29 MLB teams, attached with a note "I'll sign for half what the Twins offered me".

Except thanks to MLB rules, only a few of the other 29 teams could even offer him that much right now. I'm not sure the lack of a deal for Marte at the moment is all that meaningful of a data point.

[twinfan]

Why didn't we get a pitcher or two? I'm not impressed with either of these two though they are still babies.

[SF Twins Fan]

 

Except thanks to MLB rules, only a few of the other 29 teams could even offer him that much right now. I'm not sure the lack of a deal for Marte at the moment is all that meaningful of a data point.

 

Neither is a handful of people on here speculating the Twins are being shady with ZERO evidence.

[mikelink45]

Nothing to lose - it makes me wonder how many players go through our system each year.  Without TD most would go without an acknowledgment, but in reality the number that is in the system just looking for a moment in the sun is staggering. 

 

My best answer  250 - 300 https://www.quora.com/How-many-baseball-players-are-there-in-a-Major-League-Baseball-farm-system

 

That means there are 10+ players for every major league roster spot. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

Neither is a handful of people on here speculating the Twins are being shady with ZERO evidence.

Did you see me citing TD posters as a data point?

[snap4birds]

 

That's not quite right. People were pissed that the Astros were using the injury as a way to secure a third player (after Jacob Nix) named Mac Marshall out of Aiken's bonus. The medical issue they saw was similar to other picks and those picks had their bonuses lowered by several hundred thousand dollars, not 1.5m, which coincidentally happened to be Marshall's demand. Nix and Marshall's agreements were therefore locked into a third party (Aiken). Nix filed his grievance against the Astros and won (Astros settled for 1m+ before the arbitrator ruled against them). 

 

I'm hoping that the Twins didn't **** over Marte on the hopes of getting a better prospect but I think they did. 

I thought the deal was that the Astros had an agreement with Aiken for less than slot, they were going to use the extra money for Nix.  But when Aiken's physical came back, they weren't willing to pay as much as agreed upon and they then didn't have any extra money for Nix.  So if they wanted Nix, they essentially were paying for him and a damaged Aiken.  Pretty sticky situation all around....

[gunnarthor]

 

I thought the deal was that the Astros had an agreement with Aiken for less than slot, they were going to use the extra money for Nix.  But when Aiken's physical came back, they weren't willing to pay as much as agreed upon and they then didn't have any extra money for Nix.  So if they wanted Nix, they essentially were paying for him and a damaged Aiken.  Pretty sticky situation all around....

That was the original deal. But when they found an anomaly in his arm, they demanded another pick from Aiken - Mac Marshall. Aiken and his agent said no, stalemate happened and none of the three kids were able to sign. Nix was able to file grievance.

[gagu]

 

Agreed the optics are certainly complicating the matter. If Marte does resign it'll raise more questions. Obviously it's all conjecture at this point but: 

 

Why would the Twins be interested in resigning him if the eye condition is as serious as others are convinced it is? If they're certain he won't be a big league player why waste the remaining money resigning him? 

 

I can't get past the timing; the apparent non release of the contract being voided and the announcement for the availability of the money coinciding with Ohtani making his way to the states just seems odd. 

 

If the Twins are going to resign him doesn't that hint that the eye condition might not have been as disastrous as portrayed? If that's the case can the actions of the Twins be viewed as some sort of tampering? Marte's value clearly would have been affected and potentially the reason other clubs have been hesitant to sign him. It's clearly the most sinister scenario but is it the craziest thing in the world to think a team would sacrifice a player like Marte in order to have a shot at Ohtani? 

 

Another part I can't get past though is that if Ohtani had decided to come to MN this wouldn't have been an issue. Even if the Twins had f***ed this kid over the Ohtani signing would have overshadowed anything done to get him here. I can't I wouldn't have overlooked it myself. 

 

Or you know, it could just be a condition the Twins aren't comfortable with so they decided to move on, i.e. business as usual. 

I think that it's conjecture to the extreme. Has it been reported anywhere that the vision problem rules out a potential MLB career? Is the 100/20 vision report false? Is a physical just a charade? As I see it, until facts prove otherwise, a defect was discovered that lowers his value to something less than $3 million dollars. It doesn't mean that he isn't worth signing at all. It just means that his market value has dropped following a customary physical. Due diligence is a good thing. 

[70charger]

 

I think he got good advice.  The Twins are pretty loaded at Short and he has a path of least resistance through the Angels system.  Should give him a faster path to the Majors if he is as good as advertised.

 

If I were a young shortstop, I'd probably look at Lewis, Gordon, Javier, and Palacios; then take a quick gander at the nobody that the Angels have in their system; then I'd probably pick the Angels too.

 

Though given the Twins' depth and the Angels' propensity for trading prospects for fading veterans, he'll probably be wearing a different uniform by the time he hits the majors anyway.

[tvagle]

After Dee Gordon to Mariners deal it's time to fire up the Falvine HotLine

 

Hello Jon Daniels....$1.2Mil for Yohander Mendez

 

Line 2...Billy Eppler...Jahmai Jones or Jo Adell (the rest of your guys are...um...not worth the Monopoly Money)

 

 

[TL]

If I were a young shortstop, I'd probably look at Lewis, Gordon, Javier, and Palacios; then take a quick gander at the nobody that the Angels have in their system; then I'd probably pick the Angels too.

 

Though given the Twins' depth and the Angels' propensity for trading prospects for fading veterans, he'll probably be wearing a different uniform by the time he hits the majors anyway.

 

I’m glad to hear the Twins aren’t looking at their system and thinking they have enough shortstops. They don’t stick that often and can move almost anywhere. After keeping Braves money and adding another $2MM + I guess he wanted to go where he saw the quickest path. Understandable.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

LEN3 reports that the Twins actually offered more than the Angels for Maitan:

 

http://www.startribune.com/twins-just-missed-on-coveted-baseball-prospect-kevin-maitan/462600173/

 

Money quote:

 

 

Also, this tease:

 

guess you cannot argue with the approach... they didn't get their guy and this is plan B.

[dgwills]

Trading the international signing money is absolutely the right move since it is at a premium right now (to the west coast teams). I do feel that had they waited longer and traded all of it to one team the return would of been much better.

I understand that it cost them nothing, but it really doesn't matter where your assets come from.

At least the new front office seems to make moves that I can understand. That is an improvement. We will know a lot more once we see the prospects they acquired play next year.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I think that it's conjecture to the extreme. Has it been reported anywhere that the vision problem rules out a potential MLB career? Is the 100/20 vision report false? Is a physical just a charade? As I see it, until facts prove otherwise, a defect was discovered that lowers his value to something less than $3 million dollars. It doesn't mean that he isn't worth signing at all. It just means that his market value has dropped following a customary physical. Due diligence is a good thing. 

Yeah man, I said as much...."Obviously it's all conjecture at this point."

 

Have you read a single post that claims anything the Twins have said is false? I haven't. What I've said is the timing of events seems funny. 

 

An unlikely MLB career, the "good relationship," with the team and the lack of noise from other clubs have all been used as evidence the Twins didn't do anything out of the ordinary. That all could be true. However, isn't that speculation as well? It's far from firm evidence. 

 

I don't see any definitive claims that the Twins are "playing dirty," but I do see questions about the circumstances, and I don't think it's wrong to ask them. 

[drjim]

Yeah man, I said as much...."Obviously it's all conjecture at this point."

 

Have you read a single post that claims anything the Twins have said is false? I haven't. What I've said is the timing of events seems funny.

 

An unlikely MLB career, the "good relationship," with the team and the lack of noise from other clubs have all been used as evidence the Twins didn't do anything out of the ordinary. That all could be true. However, isn't that speculation as well? It's far from firm evidence.

 

I don't see any definitive claims that the Twins are "playing dirty," but I do see questions about the circumstances, and I don't think it's wrong to ask them.

Do we actually know the timing of the failed physical though? All we know is when it became public, and that was only found out when a national writer posted available international pools due to Ohtani becoming available.

 

If they voided the contract in August or September, which seems likely, there would be nothing especially fishy about that.

[drivlikejehu]

 

Yeah man, I said as much...."Obviously it's all conjecture at this point."

 

Have you read a single post that claims anything the Twins have said is false? I haven't. What I've said is the timing of events seems funny. 

 

An unlikely MLB career, the "good relationship," with the team and the lack of noise from other clubs have all been used as evidence the Twins didn't do anything out of the ordinary. That all could be true. However, isn't that speculation as well? It's far from firm evidence. 

 

I don't see any definitive claims that the Twins are "playing dirty," but I do see questions about the circumstances, and I don't think it's wrong to ask them. 

 

Sorry but this is ridiculous. 'Asking questions' can be a way to level completely fictitious and unfounded accusations, which is exactly what you are doing here. 'Sure, there's zero evidence of anything amiss, but since I can make up a conspiracy theory out of thin air, it makes sense to discuss it.'

 

I don't understand why this line of inquiry is even being allowed by the mods. It's pretty much the same as accusing Falvey of having a drug problem or any other completely made-up smear.