General politics

[ewen21]

Who knows what the reasons were that she waited to get her degree.  It's especially impressive for any one to go back to school as a non-traditional student and earn their degrees.  That you minimize her education demonstrates your out-sized bias here, and as such, it's pointless to discuss this further with you.

I don't care if she's the CEO of Amazon or stocks shelves at Target. She's the one who said "some people did something" on 9-11, she made those bizarre comments on that video about Al Qaeda and it isn't limited to just that. She half-heatedly defends Al Qaeda and talks junk about Israel. This "taken out of context" stuff doesn't wash. She's on record

 

When it comes to 9-11 I am the wrong guy to talk to. I was teaching in a NY public school abut 75 miles from Ground Zero when it happened. I personally know (knew) people who lost loved ones. i don't want to hear her or anyone else brush off what happened and act like people who were affected by it are intolerant because they don't like Al Qaeda.

 

If she keeps talking she might help Trump take New York

[Badsmerf]

So you don't see it for what it is. She is defending Muslims, and pointing out the way western culture has stigmatized a huge group of people based on the actions of a few.

[biggentleben]

 

Honest question. What was the goal here? If you were intending to foster discussion go after a certain position and explain why you don’t think it’s feasible or you disagree with it. If your intent was to rile them up, then carry on.

A couple of other things that bother me. It almost sounds as if you are saying most blacks don’t think for themselves. It’s offensive in the same way that some liberals insinuate the evangelical right don’t think for themselves. We can and should do better. Also referring to the Democratic Party as a plantation seems like the same ilk as calling detention facilities concentration camps. If you want to have a discussion here you will likely need to pick your words better. Otherwise you kind of kill the chance for discussion with your tone/style.

 

...and this is why USMC is getting much better response with a differing point of view than a number on the board. You come to the table and shirk your use of trigger words while knowing your own trigger words and encouraging the removal of those trigger words from the folks you are talking to - and show a willingness to adapt conversation to focus on the subject at hand while leaving the periphery where it belongs - and productive conversation can happen.

 

For many, the experience of their race is very different. I get incredibly frustrated with people trying to tell me what is racist toward Native Americans. While not Native, I've lived very close with Native people for many years, now have adopted (or plan to adopt) 5 Native children, and my wife and I have received compliments for our ability to understand and "get" a Native view after hours of conversations and mentorship with elders. When Native issues are addressed, and I'm approached as any other white guy, it's not the same. I don't intend to speak as a Native, but I can speak as a parent of Native children. I cannot speak as a woman, but I can speak as a father raising 4 beautiful daughters of multiple races and their experience traveling this world.

 

We can have tremendous discourse here while still addressing difficult issues. In my own experience, a strong negative response to being termed a racist has to do strongly with either 1) underlying racism or 2) guilt for not doing more to address racism in the world. We can all approach this world with open eyes and open arms, but only if we allow ourselves to. Otherwise, approaches looking for a fight, looking for someone to blame, and looking to establish ourselves as being "over" another due to race, religion, sex, or any other host of things will be dominant...as we've seen.

[Craig Arko]

Just a brief reminder.

 

[PseudoSABR]

Sinema, in conjunction with a bipartisan group, developed a practical idea to streamline the asylum process by deporting those claiming only economic hardship within 15 days.

 

Although, I personally feel that economic hardship ought to be a consideration in the asylum process it currently is not.

 

Deportation can seem cruel, but it's certainly not as cruel as the conditions of these deportation centers.

[ewen21]

I'm interested to hear Craig comment (in his own words) about my post on Ilhan Omar.

[Badsmerf]

I'm interested to hear Craig comment (in his own words) about my post on Ilhan Omar.

* Crowd makes loud "Uuuhhhhhooo" sound*

[PseudoSABR]

 

* Crowd makes loud "Uuuhhhhhooo" sound*

I didn't want to respond to ewen, but I hope Craig doesn't take the bait.  Ewen's not interested in having an honest conversation.  Notice how the "using the term racist is totally unwarranted" complaint has fell to the wayside. Like Trump, why not embrace it.

[Badsmerf]

I didn't want to respond to ewen, but I hope Craig doesn't take the bait. Ewen's not interested in having an honest conversation. Notice how the "using the term racist is totally unwarranted" complaint has fell to the wayside. Like Trump, why not embrace it.

* The crowd sighs "Aaaaahhhhoooooo" *

[Craig Arko]

Well, sorry to disappoint the crowd, but I haven’t read the post in question and don’t plan on doing so.

 

Speaking for my own experience, being raised in an all-white suburb in the 50’s and 60’s, it was impossible not to be exposed and ingrained in bigotry and tribalisms of many kinds. Black, Asian, Arab, Indians, Mexican, Jew, Gay; all these people were dehumanized and treated not just as animals but as enemy animals.

 

So, what happened? We grew up, kept our eyes and ears opened, and learned. My parents, and to some degree my older siblings, never really completely overcame this indoctrination. And I”d be lying if I said I have completely overcome it, too. But I work at it every g-d day. So if you call me a racist, my answer would be “You’re right, how can I do better?”

 

Because one of the things I’ve learned is that demonization of the Other is a weakness of humanity, and it’s something that holds us back and is basically a form of cultural insanity.

 

I choose to remain sane. You can, too.

[ewen21]

I didn't want to respond to ewen, but I hope Craig doesn't take the bait.  Ewen's not interested in having an honest conversation.  Notice how the "using the term racist is totally unwarranted" complaint has fell to the wayside. Like Trump, why not embrace it.

Asking Craig to actually speak up is further proof that I would like to have a conversation. He's done very little but quote other people, toss out articles and post memes. I wanted to see him actually form a thought because he had not for quite some time. I see that he has responded and good for him.

 

As far as me saying "using the term racist is totally unwarranted" I've never once said that unless we are talking about a singular instance. I would never say that in general, but I would say it in response to a silly claim.

 

And we can take Trump out of the equation when it comes to Ilhan Onar. Her quotes/Tweets/interviews regarding 9-11, Al Qaeda and Isreal are what they are with or without Donald Trump.

[ewen21]

Well, sorry to disappoint the crowd, but I haven’t read the post in question and don’t plan on doing so.

Speaking for my own experience, being raised in an all-white suburb in the 50’s and 60’s, it was impossible not to be exposed and ingrained in bigotry and tribalisms of many kinds. Black, Asian, Arab, Indians, Mexican, Jew, Gay; all these people were dehumanized and treated not just as animals but as enemy animals.

So, what happened? We grew up, kept our eyes and ears opened, and learned. My parents, and to some degree my older siblings, never really completely overcame this indoctrination. And I”d be lying if I said I have completely overcome it, too. But I work at it every g-d day. So if you call me a racist, my answer would be “You’re right, how can I do better?”

Because one of the things I’ve learned is that demonization of the Other is a weakness of humanity, and it’s something that holds us back and is basically a form of cultural insanity.

I choose to remain sane. You can, too.

I was born in 1966 so my generation followed yours. One think I learned from your generation was to question authority. That was huge with your generation.

 

I see here you assume a guilty stance when some calls you a racist even though you do everything in your power to not lean that way ever. I've not ever been called one outside of here and I don't have to take it. I can question it because the term RACIST is used quite liberally here. Wherever the accusation is made its automatically supported. I don't understand this. This dogma you've adopted assumes that the claim is 100% valid 100% of the time. You've stopped questioning things and you've compromised your principles. Since when did this become the case anywhere else but on this topic? I can call you a racist for humming "Camptown Races" and you'd just assume that you are if this claim were made by a brown person? I'm sorry. I understand that people can do things that are unwittingly insensitive, but as with anything it can be taken too far. You don't acknowledge that at all?

[Squirrel]

I was born in 1966 so my generation followed yours. One think I learned from your generation was to question authority. That was huge with your generation.

I see here you assume a guilty stance when some calls you a racist even though you do everything in your power to not lean that way ever. I've not ever been called one outside of here and I don't have to take it. I can question it because the term RACIST is used quite liberally here. Wherever the accusation is made its automatically supported. I don't understand this. This dogma you've adopted assumes that the claim is 100% valid 100% of the time. You've stopped questioning things and you've compromised your principles. Since when did this become the case anywhere else but on this topic? I can call you a racist for humming "Camptown Races" and you'd just assume that you are if this claim were made by a brown person? I'm sorry. I understand that people can do things that are unwittingly insensitive, but as with anything it can be taken too far. You don't acknowledge that at all?

We come down to a very basic difference of thought between many of us here:

 

Is there racism without intent to be so? Is it racism if it’s not in its most egregious and obvious form?

 

In my opinion, yes, there is and yes it is. It’s the unintentional that is much more difficult to recognize and thus alter because ‘I didn’t mean it that way’ or ‘There are laws that protect against that’ or ‘I have black friends’ become standard, defensive, go-to lines for many of us, and all it is is a failure to examine further and to be really thoughtful of all we say and do, and just how and why it might be. And in many of those cases, I think it’s very obvious when others don’t think so. And, just so we’re clear here, I include myself when I say this. I am not innocent.

 

I’ll agree that some see racism in many actions. And maybe it’s overdone, and maybe in some cases it’s not. But I do feel that in many more instances than not we allow our defensiveness to deny any possibility and all culpability and nothing changes. I know that I’m still a work in progress.

[ewen21]

I engage in some heated discussions here, but that stuff completely confined to this forum. It doesn't bleed into my world because it can't. Much of me is like Craig whether anyone can believe it. I constantly question myself on the topic of race and have for great long while. Things have shifted over the last ten years or so, however.

 

Unfortunately racism has become a hollow charge in a lot of cases and that's only because people are finding racism in EVERYTHING. The insinuation fronted up by AOC that ICE workers at the border are carying some kind of racist agenda is utterly absurd to me. For starters, a great many of those workers are of Hispanic descent for starters. The other thing is they cannot accomodate the mass of humanity at the border. How is it their fault? The broad charges of racial insensitivity bothers me. Worse still, when charges are made by people of color congress it becomes an impossible discussion and it's a damn shame.

 

Another thing that bothers me is that a person like Craig (who has consciously and thoughtfully) tried his entire adult life to not do anything perceived as even remotely racist can be labeled as such and forced into a defensive posture by any accuser. His response is limited to "what can I do better?"

 

My answer for Craig there would be "nothing" He already is earnestly trying so what more is he supposed to do if it's assumed white people have no idea what racism is? The assumption that whites aren't even aware of their own racism asserts hope is futile. Is there a point where a guy like Craig ever will see the evils that lurk inside of him or does being white doom you to ignorance on the topic of race?

 

I don't believe that and when I see accusations of "racism" thrown around in a cavalier manner I'm going to question it. I understand that stance is appalling to some people reading this and it is why we need to have a conversation. I appreciate Craig's input and I totally feel what he's saying. I just don't think he needs to go into default mode since he's already doing all he can. If anyone here thinks he's capable of racism then I need to hear how that notion was acquired.

 

I do want to have a conversation, but then I haven't set the terms on how it's going to happen here. I appreciate the mods for not silencing me even if most can't agree with me a lot of the time in this forum.

[ewen21]

Sorry for the typos and errors. I have bad vision, I'm using my phone and I'm on vacation. I try to clean it up later

[ewen21]

Mueller is getting butchered like a hog. I hope Nadler is happy.

[MMMordabito]

 

Mueller is getting butchered like a hog. I hope Nadler is happy.

 

Well, if he isn't happy, he can just call a bunch of people racists.  That seems to be the default these days.

[ewen21]

 

Well, if he isn't happy, he can just call a bunch of people racists.  That seems to be the default these days.

Mueller is probably a racist.  We just don't know it yet.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Mueller is getting butchered like a hog. I hope Nadler is happy.

You see what you want to see.

[howeda7]

 

You see what you want to see.

Certainly the case. We didn't learn much new, but at least he killed a couple GOP talking points. He didn't indict on obstruction because he felt he was bound by the OLC memo that he couldn't no matter what Barr spins. He also pretty much said Trump wasn't truthful in his written answers, which I didn't expect.

[Badsmerf]

Pretty much as expected imo. Republicans crying about Hillary Clinton and the Steele document.... Democrats trying to paint Trump as a criminal. Mueller a answering questions to avoid a bipartisan bias. Waste of time. Anyone that pays attention, already knew his answers.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Pretty much as expected imo. Republicans crying about Hillary Clinton and the Steele document.... Democrats trying to paint Trump as a criminal. Mueller a answering questions to avoid a bipartisan bias. Waste of time. Anyone that pays attention, already knew his answers.

It's not so much a waste of time as creating a better record (video, sound bytes, things that can be plugged into commercials and referred to by candidates with memorable reference) for the 2020 campaign.

 

He unequivocally said he did not exonerate the President, that Trump could be indicted after leaving office, that the Russian threat is ongoing and dire, among many other things.  We're in the spin zone, so it all seems a bit partisan and therefore meaningless but there was real news today. 

 

Schiff's questioning of Mueller was expert, in and of itself creates a startling record of the seriousness of what happened during 2016. 

 

All that said, in the current news cycle, as you say for those who pay attention, our biases will only be confirmed. I think this is better fodder for the Democratic candidates than Trump himself. 

[Badsmerf]

It's not so much a waste of time as creating a better record (video, sound bytes, things that can be plugged into commercials and referred to by candidates with memorable reference) for the 2020 campaign.

 

He unequivocally said he did not exonerate the President, that Trump could be indicted after leaving office, that the Russian threat is ongoing and dire, among many other things. We're in the spin zone, so it all seems a bit partisan and therefore meaningless but there was real news today.

 

Schiff's questioning of Mueller was expert, in and of itself creates a startling record of the seriousness of what happened during 2016.

 

All that said, in the current news cycle, as you say for those who pay attention, our biases will only be confirmed. I think this is better fodder for the Democratic candidates than Trump himself.

Why? Who does it convince? I don't think it moves the needle. Those whom care about the president following the law already are against Trump. Honestly, only extreme bias can see it any other way. We saw it today with Republicans saying Hillary Clinton was an adversary... even after she lost the election!

 

I'm so disappointed in the Republican party with how they've lined up behind a terrible person like Trump. Either they are gutless cowards, or unable to think for themselves. My hunch is the former, since Justin Amash said he was thanked behind closed doors for his pro impeachment stance.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Why? Who does it convince? I don't think it moves the needle. Those whom care about the president following the law already are against Trump. Honestly, only extreme bias can see it any other way. We saw it today with Republicans saying Hillary Clinton was an adversary... even after she lost the election!

There's people in the middle that are wary of Trump, but don't have enough reason to vote against him. Those people.  

 

There's only like 40% or less that is part of Trump's cult (crazy that it is even that high), but that leaves 60%, many of which need to be persuaded, and could be on these grounds--the Trump colluded with Russia, though not quite enough for a conviction. There's a persuadable middle there, with what already 45% approve impeachment.

[howeda7]

 

There's people in the middle that are wary of Trump, but don't have enough reason to vote against him. Those people.  

 

There's only like 40% or less that is part of Trump's cult (crazy that it is even that high), but that leaves 60%, many of which need to be persuaded, and could be on these grounds--the Trump colluded with Russia, though not quite enough for a conviction. There's a persuadable middle there, with what already 45% approve impeachment.

+1. I think Pelosi is being pretty gutless on the impeachment. The idea that it will "fire up" Trump's base is dumb. It might, but who cares? They're going to vote regardless. The Kavanaugh hearings "fired them up" too and they still lost 40 seats in the House.

 

I think as long as they keep the inquiry away from personal issues like Stormy Daniels there will not be a backlash for at least having the inquiry. Keep it focused on the obstruction Mueller laid out and his financial dealings and secrecy. The Clinton impeachment backfired because it was purely personal.