General politics

[Squirrel]

 

I'm against cash reparations but guilt doesn't have anything to do with it in my eyes. 

 

This is about a community that massively underperforms white Americans in every facet of life. When you boil that down to its essence, you are literally left with two options:

 

1. So much damage was done and is being done to the black community that they are incapable of pulling themselves out of that hole by themselves

 

2. Black people are inferior to white people

 

It's obviously the former, so let's do something about it. Giving poor people cash is a bad solution, as poor people often lack the skills and knowledge to effectively manage money, especially a big pile of it given in one go.

 

So how do we invest in black communities through education, business loans, infrastructure, etc? And how much would it take to get things back on track and do we have the collective stomach to see this through over decades, not years? Because that's what it will take. This isn't a "one and done" situation, it will take generations of concentrated effort.

This ... over and over and over again. I was listening to ... I think NPR ... the other day. I don't even know who the speaker was or what the topic was, and it was only for the time I was in the car ... but they were talking about investing in black communities. (It might have been specific to Chicago, now that I think of it, but I think it applies many places.) The one thing I found interesting was that most people think that gun violence is the #1 killer in black communities. It's not. It's disease ... heart disease, cancer and infant mortality are leading causes of death in black communities. These communities have no access to anything and they've been starved on many levels. There aren't good grocery stores, there aren't jobs, there is no access to health care, they have the worst schools, there aren't gyms, the transit system doesn't even serve them in the best ways it could, when the interstates were built, those communities were cut apart and divided and ruined ... there is nothing because we don't make the commitment to these neighborhoods and the people in them. Some of the basic things many take for granted simply aren't there. So, if we want to talk reparations, put money into these communities to give opportunity for an equal life.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

This ... over and over and over again. I was listening to ... I think NPR ... the other day. I don't even know who the speaker was or what the topic was, and it was only for the time I was in the car ... but they were talking about investing in black communities. (It might have been specific to Chicago, now that I think of it, but I think it applies many places.) The one thing I found interesting was that most people think that gun violence is the #1 killer in black communities. It's not. It's disease ... heart disease, cancer and infant mortality are leading causes of death in black communities. These communities have no access to anything and they've been starved on many levels. There aren't good grocery stores, there aren't jobs, there is no access to health care, they have the worst schools, there aren't gyms, the transit system doesn't even serve them in the best ways it could, when the interstates were built, those communities were cut apart and divided and ruined ... there is nothing because we don't make the commitment to these neighborhoods and the people in them. Some of the basic things many take for granted simply aren't there. So, if we want to talk reparations, put money into these communities to give opportunity for an equal life.

Yep. Since most of us are familiar with Minneapolis, just look at the damage done to north for the past 50 years and they're still not getting it right today.

 

The city basically redlined north Minneapolis into being a black community. Then they starved it of resources. Then, to add the killing blow, they chose to level a big chunk of the community to run the I-94 right along the river when the path that is now the I-394 was readily available. Instead of using mostly open land where I-394 runs today, they plowed through an entire neighborhood, suffocating access to the river in the process.

 

Today, that lack of access to the river is still crippling the area. Given the layout and amenities of modern cities, that river access could be a goldmine (just look at how the east side of the river is blossoming in NE). But nope, that freeway will always be there and it will continue to be a blight of north.

 

And even today, city planners still can't get it right. Did they try to extend the blue line through the heavily-trafficked Broadway (full of businesses), just like they did on University? Nope, go **** yourself, north Minneapolis, we're putting the blue line extension through the middle of EFFING NOWHERE and bypassing north entirely.

 

These are the types of decisions that continue to undermine black neighborhoods while white America just turns a blind eye and yawns.

 

Take a look at what they rejected (the green dotted line) in favor of running the Bottineau line through a huge swath of unoccupied land.

 

[Squirrel]

I'm hoping ... I think there is a glimmer of hope with the new mayor here ... but the bureaucracy morass she has to slog through ... I'm not sure anyone can get through it. But, Lori Lightfoot gives me a sliver of a glimmer of hope.

[Doomtints]

Gun violence is a problem in Chicago because people who live in those neighborhoods feel like no one gives a **** about them, especially the police and politicians. They feel they have to protect themselves because no one else will. The shootings eventually snowballed.

 

In the 70s, the mayor got an apartment in one of those areas and was so frightened he ended up only being there for two weeks, in spite of the fact that the apartment was remodeled to having metal walls and metal doors. It was impenetrable. After the mayor left, this became one of the worst areas as the fortified apartment became a home base for drug activity.

 

Southerners love the wild west myth but seem to be uncomfortable about it when it actually happens.

[Squirrel]

Gun violence is a problem in Chicago because people who live in those neighborhoods feel like no one gives a **** about them, especially the police and politicians. They feel they have to protect themselves because no one else will. The shootings eventually snowballed.

 

In the 70s, the mayor got an apartment in one of those areas and was so frightened he ended up only being there for two weeks, in spite of the fact that the apartment was remodeled to having metal walls and metal doors. It was impenetrable. After the mayor left, this became one of the worst areas as the fortified apartment became a home base for drug activity.

 

Southerners love the wild west myth but seem to be uncomfortable about it when it actually happens.

This isn’t a discussion on gun violence in Chicago, which is, without a doubt, bad, and especially in the poorest neighborhoods, which also happen to be predominantly black neighborhoods. My only mention of it was because many believe it’s the leading cause of death in those communities and it isn’t. The poor neighborhoods have little access to anything that sustain and help create life longevity. No doubt gun violence is all wrapped up in this, but the point was it is well past due time to invest in those areas and bring the quality and standards of living on par with other areas.

[LaBombo]

 

Race is such a beacon to some eyes, that to them blackness was the defining characteristic of the Obama presidency.

 

He'd get indignant if someone called him racist, and yet McConnell sees events through exactly such a prism, and he gives it away in off-hand comments like that.

 

It's an empirical and easily verifiable fact that race WAS the defining characteristic of the Obama presidency. That is, unless you want to contend that Biography.com, WhiteHouseHistory.org, and practically every other reputable source of presidential thumbnail bios are racist as well:

 

White House History.org:  "When Barack Obama was elected president in 2008, he became the first African American to hold the office."

 

Biography.com:  "Barack Obama was the 44th president of the United States, and the first African American to serve in the office."

 

The Miller Center: "Barack Obama was inaugurated as the 44th president of the United States—becoming the first African American to serve in that office—on January 20, 2009.

 

And so on. And if your fallback position is "Defining Obama's presidency foremost by his race is only racist if you're a Republican", please allow me to suggest the possibility that you're seeing morality through the prism of your political beliefs.

 

That aside, McConnell deserves whatever pushback he gets from his comments. I'm surprised that he didn't simply parrot the generic 2020 Dem candidate position and say that he's 'in favor of having a conversation about reparations'.

 

A call for a conversation is not an endorsement of the concept, and it would force Dem candidates to elevate the reparations issue to a meaningful level involving policy instead of moral standing, lest they be "in line with Mitch McConnell" on the issue.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I'm against cash reparations but guilt doesn't have anything to do with it in my eyes. 

 

This is about a community that massively underperforms white Americans in every facet of life. When you boil that down to its essence, you are literally left with two options:

 

1. So much damage was done and is being done to the black community that they are incapable of pulling themselves out of that hole by themselves

 

2. Black people are inferior to white people

 

It's obviously the former, so let's do something about it. Giving poor people cash is a bad solution, as poor people often lack the skills and knowledge to effectively manage money, especially a big pile of it given in one go.

 

So how do we invest in black communities through education, business loans, infrastructure, etc? And how much would it take to get things back on track and do we have the collective stomach to see this through over decades, not years? Because that's what it will take. This isn't a "one and done" situation, it will take generations of concentrated effort.

This is somewhat redundant to Brock's post, but reparations that I could live with are tuition free state universities, community colleges and trade schools.  Work training programs for adults.  Invest in the development of black neighborhoods without gentrification--perhaps a freeze on rent in such areas, or a grandfathered increase.  Funded child care. Access to health and mental health services.  Etc.  

 

I'm likewise against cash reparations.  The whole you can teach a man to fish v. giving him a fish thing. 

[ewen21]

 

I'm against cash reparations but guilt doesn't have anything to do with it in my eyes. 

 

This is about a community that massively underperforms white Americans in every facet of life. When you boil that down to its essence, you are literally left with two options:

 

1. So much damage was done and is being done to the black community that they are incapable of pulling themselves out of that hole by themselves

 

2. Black people are inferior to white people

 

It's obviously the former, so let's do something about it. Giving poor people cash is a bad solution, as poor people often lack the skills and knowledge to effectively manage money, especially a big pile of it given in one go.

 

So how do we invest in black communities through education, business loans, infrastructure, etc? And how much would it take to get things back on track and do we have the collective stomach to see this through over decades, not years? Because that's what it will take. This isn't a "one and done" situation, it will take generations of concentrated effort.

 

You are 100% correct.  This is not a one and done thing on any level.  I believe very strongly in young black men learning trades.  Heck, not only young black men, but young men PERIOD.  Our education system preaches far too much about college being THE path to take and it simply isn't for everyone.  I live near Poughkeepsie and there is a small poor section that consists of century old Victorians that are mostly in disrepair.  These are homes built by European immigrants and they are old.  I think that it is important to institute policies attract more private sector capital to places like this. I would like to see black construction firms come to prominence.  I think this would be wonderful for not only impoverished areas, but ANYWHERE.  So many opportunities are in this field and we now have a great deal of immigrants doing these jobs.  Blue collar work is something that shouldn't be marginalized and I think getting into the trades is a terrific way for young black men to earn a living.  I think with that comes pride in your neighborhood.

 

Think about it...…..

If we can do something about inadequate housing and get rid of as much as we can in urban areas and replace it with housing built by African American owned firms it is a win/win.  This would not only provide jobs and income, but also a neighborhood pride that doesn't exist.  This isn't something I have seen ever before and I think Trump is trying to actualize this kind of thing through his executive order on opportunity zones.  He has a background in real estate and knows a thing or two about it.  Not only should we encourage/incentivize young black men to get into the trades, but we should also encourage them to sell real estate, do mortgage banking, etc....

I think this would do a great deal to change things.

 

With regards to the old crime bill and criminalizing marijuana, forget it.  Make it legal and don't let us make the same mistakes we did.  The Crime Bill instituted during the Clinton era was absolutely horrendous for African Americans and poor people.

 

Incentivize (big time) small business ownership in African American communities.  This is something happening now with Trump's opportunity zones.  Just how successful it is so far isn't yet evident to me, but people with big money are TRYING to invest in opportunity zones and there isn't an immediate payoff beyond a tax break.  They have to be in it more long term than in the past and this I believe is a positive thing.

 

I don't see where reparations is a feasible option.  How in the world does it even work?  No one can even explain it and yet many democratic candidates have this on their platform.  They are also saying all the right things, but talk is cheap and I find it very patronizing for candidates to talk this talk about reparations when they haven't a clue how to make it get off the ground.  What McConnell said was not racist, in my opinion.  I respect the fact that people feel he was out of line and are calling him out, but I fail to see where this kind of thing is constructive.  We have gotten way WAY out of hand when it comes to making the accusation or "RACISM"

It's become a silly word to me where white people drop it like a bomb on rational discussions.  We could have a rational discussion about other solutions beyond reparations to help African Americans, but spare me this bit on racism please.  Also, a great part of the responsibility is on them.  We can blame slavery and racism until the cows come home, but violent crime, out of wedlock child birth, promiscuity and this unfortunate disdain for 'acting white' in school in black communities is something we are not going to fix.  Those not problems white people gave them.  I am sorry.

[PseudoSABR]

 

 What McConnell said was not racist, in my opinion.  I respect the fact that people feel he was out of line and are calling him out, but I fail to see where this kind of thing is constructive.  We have gotten way WAY out of hand when it comes to making the accusation or "RACISM"

It's become a silly word to me where white people drop it like a bomb on rational discussions.  We could have a rational discussion about other solutions beyond reparations to help African Americans, but spare me this bit on racism please.  Also, a great part of the responsibility is on them.  We can blame slavery and racism until the cows come home, but violent crime, out of wedlock child birth, promiscuity and this unfortunate disdain for 'acting white' in school in black communities is something we are not going to fix.  Those not problems white people gave them.  I am sorry.

The suggestion that a black president should be enough to wash the sins of slavery is pretty messed up, and whether we want to call it racist or not, we should be able to point out that it is messed up and irresponsible because of its implications about race.  In my mind, tokenism (and that's how I'd characterize McConnell's position) is a form of racism, though more subtle than its other forms. 

[ewen21]

 

The suggestion that a black president should be enough to wash the sins of slavery is pretty messed up, and whether we want to call it racist or not, we should be able to point out that it is messed up and irresponsible because of its implications about race.  In my mind, tokenism (and that's how I'd characterize McConnell's position) is a form of racism, though more subtle than its other forms. 

This is precisely what we need to stop talking about.  I contributed a whole lot of stuff in an attempt to answer Brock (during a very busy time) and you want to focus on this?  Why?

[PseudoSABR]

 

This is precisely what we need to stop talking about.  I contributed a whole lot of stuff in an attempt to answer Brock (during a very busy time) and you want to focus on this?  Why?

I also addressed Brock's post, and we largely agree on his post, so I didn't see anything else to add on those points.  

 

And why did I focus on that? Well, because you consistently whine about people being called racist, but refuse to acknowledge racism in its subtle forms, this was a perfect opportunity to get you to see what was problematic about McConnell's message, and why I feel calling him out was appropriate.  If you don't like discussing this issue, feel free to opt out.

[ashbury]

It's an empirical and easily verifiable fact that race WAS the defining characteristic of the Obama presidency. That is, unless you want to contend that Biography.com, WhiteHouseHistory.org, and practically every other reputable source of presidential thumbnail bios are racist as well:

It would be irresponsible for a historian to not highlight race when discussing Obama.

 

Mitch McConnell is not a historian, and he was asked about reparations. Free-association is a time-tested means for getting a look inside someone's thought processes.

[ewen21]

 

It would be irresponsible for a historian to not highlight race when discussing Obama.

 

Mitch McConnell is not a historian, and he was asked about reparations. Free-association is a time-tested means for getting a look inside someone's thought processes.

OK so what have we uncovered here?

 

Mitch McConnell is a racist

 

I believe the discussion was about reparations.  That would be the takeaway from yesterday for me. Not can we find a "racist comment" somewhere to attack.  I think what he said was ignorant because he said it in front of cameras.  No way in the world is it 100% racist when you zero in on everything he said.  I know some have designated themselves "race cops" (Kyle Korver comes to mind), but the issue is far more important than off the cuff words from a tool Mitch McConnell.  

 

[Squirrel]

OK so what have we uncovered here?

 

Mitch McConnell is a racist

 

I believe the discussion was about reparations. That would be the takeaway from yesterday for me. Not can we find a "racist comment" somewhere to attack. I think what he said was ignorant because he said it in front of cameras. No way in the world is it 100% racist when you zero in on everything he said. I know some have designated themselves "race cops" (Kyle Korver comes to mind), but the issue is far more important than off the cuff words from a tool Mitch McConnell.

 

You are incorrect in what you think this is about. This is about exactly what Mitch McConnell said, how he said it and all the words in which he chose to say it. And because it is about ALL of what he said and how he said it, it is not solely and only about reparations. That you want to make it only about that, too bad. This is an open discussion. That was what was brought to the forum. He made a comment about reparations in a very inappropriate manner. That’s what it is. He’s a high ranking elected official, so ALL his words are fair game, and we will not exclude the words that contain inappropriate or racial overtones to suit you. I’m sorry that makes for an uncomfortable discussion for you, but you do have a choice not to participate, You are the one who wants to extract part of what he said as if the other didn’t exist and only discuss half of the comment, while others want to discuss and have discussed the entire comment. Then you resort to things that no one said ... the world is 100% racist. Now you are characterizing people as ‘race cops’ because they dare to make claims about a very improper statement. It is fair for some to claim McConnell’s statement is racist. It is fair for you to rebut that opinion. I really don’t know what’s worse ... someone who thinks the world is 100% racist or you who thinks nothing is racist. People here have bent over backwards to try and accommodate you because this forum needs other voices. Maybe some here think there is racism in a lot of what is said and done in the world. And it’s fine for you to think otherwise. But telling people what and how they can bring topics to the table is not how these forum discussion work.

[PseudoSABR]

 

 But telling people what and how they can bring topics to the table is not how these forum discussion work.

Amen!

[LaBombo]

It would be irresponsible for a historian to not highlight race when discussing Obama.

 

Mitch McConnell is not a historian, and he was asked about reparations. Free-association is a time-tested means for getting a look inside someone's thought processes.

Dump on McConnell all you want. As I tried to made clear in my post, I'm not defending his comments or arguing with your interpretation, which is probably one of the milder condemnations of McConnell that I can remember seeing in the forum.

 

I'm simply saying that your post started out with what looks to me like a universal yardstick of racism: That people are racist if they see President Obama's race as the defining characteristic of his presidency. My only question is whether I'm reading it wrong or it's not so universal of a yardstick after all.

[Craig Arko]

I’m shocked by all y’all. Senator Mitch has been known forever as a protector of the United States Constitution he swore to uphold.

 

[LaBombo]

 

I’m shocked by all y’all. Senator Mitch has been known forever as a protector of the United States Constitution he swore to uphold.

B703E893-A78C-44EE-A86C-591937B6BA01.jpeg

 

One wonders whether the President Pro Tem of the Senate at the time of the photo might not have been inclined to rebuke McConnell for his choice of photo ops if his resume did not include the job description "Exalted Cyclops".

 

http://blogs.wvgazette.com/coaltattoo/files/2009/02/byrd12.jpg

[Badsmerf]

I’m shocked by all y’all. Senator Mitch has been known forever as a protector of the United States Constitution he swore to uphold.

 

B703E893-A78C-44EE-A86C-591937B6BA01.jpeg

Looks like a cozy little country club Confederate party.

[Badsmerf]

Watching this Iran issue with the drone closely. They claim it was in Iranian airspace, our guys say it was in international airspace.... As much as Iran lies, there is still a sliver of doubt that our military is telling the truth. However, they did release a pretty specific map of where they say it was shot down.

[Craig Arko]

Watching this Iran issue with the drone closely. They claim it was in Iranian airspace, our guys say it was in international airspace.... As much as Iran lies, there is still a sliver of doubt that our military is telling the truth. However, they did release a pretty specific map of where they say it was shot down.

Gulf of Tonkin?

[LaBombo]

 

Gulf of Tonkin?

 

There may never be enough info to rule that out, but in a historical context it's hard to see how a drone shootdown can generate the kind of outrage necessary to sway US public opinion.

 

Trump supporters are likely to back his play already, and those who oppose him will condemn military action no matter what. That leaves undecideds, who are unlikely to be moved by the loss of a drone given that more than a hundred US Cold War aircrew died in shootdowns that drew no more retaliation than diplomatic rebukes and occasional military exercises.

 

Then there's the other problem, which is that provoking an attack to justify military action and then speculating that said attack might have been an accident seems a bit random even for Trump.

[Badsmerf]

Then there's the other problem, which is that provoking an attack to justify military action and then speculating that said attack might have been an accident seems a bit random even for Trump.

For Trump, but not necessarily our military. Let's not pretend they are innocent snowflakes... If we can prove it was over international airspace, and they we didn't cross into Iran... it gives us ammo to go harder against Iran. Since nobody lost their life, I really hope we don't respond with retaliation that escalates the situation.

 

This administration has really had it out for Iran since the beginning. Odd to me considering Trump's relationship with every other bad player in the world.

[ewen21]

 

You are incorrect in what you think this is about. This is about exactly what Mitch McConnell said, how he said it and all the words in which he chose to say it. And because it is about ALL of what he said and how he said it, it is not solely and only about reparations. That you want to make it only about that, too bad. This is an open discussion. That was what was brought to the forum. He made a comment about reparations in a very inappropriate manner. That’s what it is. He’s a high ranking elected official, so ALL his words are fair game, and we will not exclude the words that contain inappropriate or racial overtones to suit you. I’m sorry that makes for an uncomfortable discussion for you, but you do have a choice not to participate, You are the one who wants to extract part of what he said as if the other didn’t exist and only discuss half of the comment, while others want to discuss and have discussed the entire comment. Then you resort to things that no one said ... the world is 100% racist. Now you are characterizing people as ‘race cops’ because they dare to make claims about a very improper statement. It is fair for some to claim McConnell’s statement is racist. It is fair for you to rebut that opinion. I really don’t know what’s worse ... someone who thinks the world is 100% racist or you who thinks nothing is racist. People here have bent over backwards to try and accommodate you because this forum needs other voices. Maybe some here think there is racism in a lot of what is said and done in the world. And it’s fine for you to think otherwise. But telling people what and how they can bring topics to the table is not how these forum discussion work.

 

The underlined part.  Really?

I don't have administrative clearance, Carole.

 

You and John are the ones control how these discussions go.  I certainly don't

[PseudoSABR]

 

Watching this Iran issue with the drone closely. They claim it was in Iranian airspace, our guys say it was in international airspace.... As much as Iran lies, there is still a sliver of doubt that our military is telling the truth. However, they did release a pretty specific map of where they say it was shot down.

The timing is fishy what with Trump's supposed desire for war...

[PseudoSABR]

 

The underlined part.  Really?

I don't have administrative clearance, Carole.

 

You and John are the ones control how these discussions go.  I certainly don't

Okay, so will you kindly stop telling people what the topic is or is not?

[PseudoSABR]

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I’m in favor of shooting down all drones, including the privately-owned ones flying over your homes and filming what’s happening in your back yards.

[Squirrel]

I’m in favor of shooting down all drones, especially the privately-owned ones flying over your homes and filming what’s happening in your back yards.

Ftfy

[ashbury]

Did you listen to the audio of that interview? Her guest broadened the subject to conquered peoples, and she responded to that tangent.