General politics

[Doomtints]

 

That really isn't the discussion and it is hindsight.  Nothing we can do about it now, but honestly, after suffering through the Holocaust the free world decided something must be done and Israel has been a sovereign state since. 

 

Not so fast. Yes that's the narrative as most of us understand it today, but the reality is European countries decided to dump off their worldwide lands and rather than simply hand them off, they decided to make these arbitrary new nations.

 

The plan to create Israel predated WW2. Israel was created around the time England created Pakistan out of thin air, too. Most of Africa was carved up in bizarre ways as Europe pulled back.

 

All of these areas now suffer from the same strife.

[Craig Arko]

The Balfour Declaration, 1917.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

[ewen21]

 

Not so fast. Yes that's the narrative as most of us understand it today, but the reality is European countries decided to dump off their worldwide lands and rather than simply hand them off, they decided to make these arbitrary new nations.

 

The plan to create Israel predated WW2. Israel was created around the time England created Pakistan out of thin air, too. Most of Africa was carved up in bizarre ways as Europe pulled back.

 

All of these areas now suffer from the same strife.

What made you think I had no knowledge of what Craig posted just after you?

 

The notion existed, but the state wasn't formed until 1947.  Why are we going backwards?  What is the discussion about?

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

That really isn't the discussion and it is hindsight.  Nothing we can do about it now, but honestly, after suffering through the Holocaust the free world decided something must be done and Israel has been a sovereign state since.  That is a whole lot more than anyone can say about the other countries in the Middle East.  Since some want to look back on the "mistake" made in 1947 with regret, I must ask......what should have been done?  Honestly.

Oh, it's a hard decision. Honestly, I'm not even saying it shouldn't have happened. Given what was done to the Jews in the 30s and 40s, they deserved a refuge.

 

But maybe putting their new country in a populated area (that would need to be displaced) that happens to be the nexus of all Abrahamic religions wasn't such a hot idea.

 

That isn't really a radical statement.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Oh, it's a hard decision. Honestly, I'm not even saying it shouldn't have happened. Given what was done to the Jews in the 30s and 40s, they deserved a refuge.

A refuge carved out of the offending countries. I can think of a few better countries than Palestine. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

A refuge carved out of the offending countries. I can think of a few better countries than Palestine. 

Isn't that what I implied with the paragraphs you cut out of my post?

[ewen21]

Ok, but again....what can we do now?  Israel has its state and it has persevered against heavy odds They also aren't showing up all over globe emigrating to other nations (while not even attempting to assimilate).

 

The extreme Islamic sects have literally rendered the peaceful ones irrelevant.  Say what you will about Israel, Catholics, "right wing Christianity" or any religion for that matter.  Islam presents problems for the Western World.  If you want to reject that notion then go ahead and keep trying to ignore it.

 

What is the motive of these Islamists?  Why are they emigrating to the US, Canada and European nations in large numbers only to not assimilate and keep to themselves?  Seems to me their objective is to inhabit the entire world and outnumber over else.  

[ewen21]

 

Yes I was assuming it, so I’m glad I typed it out explicitly to remove all doubt

However, I doubt I would trust (why should I?) anything any hate-stoking politician would say on this subject, regardless of what country they are from. But I know nothing about Sweden so am open to learning something.

I would say some of the most honest appraisals I have heard and read about Islam have come from Sam Harris and Douglas Murray.  I cannot say they shaped by opinion, but rather affirmed it.

 

My curiousity and concerns about the Middle East began in the 1970s when I was a paperboy,  The Camp David peace treaty, the Iran hostage situation, Libya, etc.....all of really was very stunning to me.  I clipped out news articles from the Times and Newsweek and summarized them for my social studies teacher Mr. Poznick.  What struck me was how tribal, oppressive, violent and backward their leaders were.  As Americans, we don't need to inherit the blame for that.

[Craig Arko]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi

[ewen21]

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi

Please develop your thought.

Not sure what you are doing with these little drive by posts.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

What is the motive of these Islamists?  Why are they emigrating to the US, Canada and European nations in large numbers only to not assimilate and keep to themselves?  Seems to me their objective is to inhabit the entire world and outnumber over else.  

 

How is this different than any other insular sect?  Many Jewish communities, Mormons, etc.

 

All major religions have this trait, it's not unusual about Islam.  Or "wrong" per se.  Plus, in my anecdotal experience working with Mormons and Somali people, I was FAR more likely to be proselytized by the Mormons and found them far less welcoming of my lifestyle differences from them.

 

Nice people, but isolating as all hell.  So your conclusions on this seem way off to me.

[ewen21]

 

How is this different than any other insular sect?  Many Jewish communities, Mormons, etc.

 

I don't see Mormons or any other "insular sect" of any religion declaring Jihad while mass emigrating around the world.

 

It's as simple as that.

[ewen21]

In addition to that, Mormons have an almost patriotic view of their role in American society:

https://mormonbeliefs.org/2017/11/10/patriotism-service-sacrifice/

 

So I don't get what you are talking about Leviathan

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't see Mormons or any other "insular sect" of any religion declaring Jihad while mass emigrating around the world.

 

It's as simple as that.

 

Do most of the immigrants here do that?  You said, because they don't assimilate, that you drew your conclusions.  I'm simply saying that many devout religions don't assimilate.

 

It's poor evidence for your conclusion.

[ewen21]

 

Do most of the immigrants here do that?  You said, because they don't assimilate, that you drew your conclusions.  I'm simply saying that many devout religions don't assimilate.

 

It's poor evidence for your conclusion.

We aren't going to do this.  .  

 

Comment on my last two posts rather than harping on an earlier post that has since been clarified.

 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

We aren't going to do this.  .  

 

Comment on my last two posts rather than harping on an earlier post that has since been clarified.

 

By "clarified" are you saying it was a bad argument?  Because we are going to do this.  This is about the 6th time you've pulled some poorly articulated argument out of your rear end and then got huffy when you got called out for it. 

 

Maybe if you don't want people "harping" you should make better arguments. 

[ewen21]

Look man.  You can talk to yourself if you want.

 

You want to go with this "poorly articulated" stuff again?  Honestly man. How about ask for clarification for once before you jump all over a post?  I'm done with you unless you have a rebuttal for 1182 or 1183.

 

I said they don't assimilate.  YOu said others don't either and that you don't see how they are any different other groups.  I responded by showing you how they are different (as if I need to actually explain it to you).

Enough.  Have a beer or something.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Look man.  You can talk to yourself if you want.

 

You want to go with this "poorly articulated" stuff again?  Honestly man. How about ask for clarification for once before you jump all over a post?  I'm done with you unless you have a rebuttal for 1182 or 1183.

 

I said they don't assimilate.  YOu said others don't either and that you don't see how they are any different other groups.  I responded by showing you how they are different (as if I need to actually explain it to you).

Enough.  Have a beer or something.

 

 People ask you for clarification and you rant about being clear.  Why would I ask when you have demonstrated no interest in honoring that request?

 

If assimilation is not what matters....why bring it up?  Yes, factions of Islam are uniquely dangerous.  That does not mean all people who practice Islam should be feared or distrusted by you, an average citizen.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I don't see Mormons or any other "insular sect" of any religion declaring Jihad while mass emigrating around the world.

 

It's as simple as that.

Well you do see white conservative males murder people by the dozens, do you color all white conservative males with that same brush?  Or does that kind of thinking only apply to Muslims?

[PseudoSABR]

 

Look man.  You can talk to yourself if you want.

 

You want to go with this "poorly articulated" stuff again?  Honestly man. How about ask for clarification for once before you jump all over a post?  I'm done with you unless you have a rebuttal for 1182 or 1183.

 

I said they don't assimilate.  YOu said others don't either and that you don't see how they are any different other groups.  I responded by showing you how they are different (as if I need to actually explain it to you).

Enough.  Have a beer or something.

Assimilate to what? White values? Christian values?  And what does that mean, give up their religion, their head gear?  Start eating pork?  

 

The whole notion of assimilation kind of makes me nauseous.  

[ewen21]

 

Well you do see white conservative males murder people by the dozens, do you color all white conservative males with that same brush?  Or does that kind of thinking only apply to Muslims?

White conservative males are murdering people by the dozens. When and where does this occur in America?

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

White conservative males are murdering people by the dozens. When and where does this occur in America?

Is that an actual question? Nearly every mass murder is by a white male.

[LaBombo]

 

Is that an actual question? Nearly every mass murder is by a white male.

 

You're under the impression that scores of terrorist murders are committed in the name of being white and male? And that there is world-wide respect for its infamous perpetrators?

[Mr. Brooks]

You're under the impression that scores of terrorist murders are committed in the name of being white and male?

Would you agree that that's exactly what Dylann Roof was doing?

[LaBombo]

 

Would you agree that that's exactly what Dylann Roof was doing?

 

Sure sounds like it, at least based on what he said. That's one.  A terrible one, but one. It looks like you're arguing that the majority of mass murderers are motivated by white supremacy, and I don't think that's true. 

 

And I'm interested in why you edited my post to exclude my question about approval. I take it you're admitting by that edit that there's at least one massive functional difference between radical Islamic terrorism and white supremacist hate crimes.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm not sure comparing terrorism to the violence of white males is analogous.  At least not in this particular conversation.  Certainly white racism/nationalism is rising and white males in America have committed many horrible crimes, but still not sure the analogy applies.

 

It's also ok to have concerns about Islamic terrorism and the practice of Islam abroad (by men, mostly), but know that the vast majority of practicing Muslims in America are good, moderate, honorable, peace-loving people.

[Craig Arko]

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/why-are-white-men-stockpiling-guns/

[ewen21]

Yes, white males are responsible for more mass shootings but it's disproportionate.

 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/10/what-the-white-mass-shooter-myth-gets-right-and-wrong-about-killers-demographics.html

 

Funny one can make a blanket statement about white makes doing all the mass shootings. Make a statement about Muslim groups bombing public places around the world and watch all the SJWs pop up.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I'm not sure comparing terrorism to the violence of white males is analogous.  At least not in this particular conversation.  Certainly white racism/nationalism is rising and white males in America have committed many horrible crimes, but still not sure the analogy applies.

 

It's also ok to have concerns about Islamic terrorism and the practice of Islam abroad (by men, mostly), but know that the vast majority of practicing Muslims in America are good, moderate, honorable, peace-loving people.

It may not be analogous, but it's something to keep in mind when we ask a group to assimilate away from their own culture b/c that culture might have more violent imperative.   There's plenty violent already about American identity, that I think calls for assimilation based on some supposed threat are made in bad faith. 

[PseudoSABR]

 

Yes, white males are responsible for more mass shootings but it's disproportionate.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/10/what-the-white-mass-shooter-myth-gets-right-and-wrong-about-killers-demographics.html

Funny one can make a blanket statement about white makes doing all the mass shootings. Make a statement about Muslim groups bombing public places around the world and watch all the SJWs pop up.

It was in reply to your blanked statement jihad/Islam/assimilation to show how faulty blanket statements are.  I don't think there's anything about maleness or whiteness or consertiveness that makes for violence, even though they happen to be ones carrying out most mass murder.   We might be able to carve sections of white/male/conservative such as supremacist who are violent, just like we can make the same carve out among Muslims who believe in jihad.