General politics

[biggentleben]

 

I would say they rely on us more than they do all the other NATO countries combined

 

....and therein lies why it's a toxic relationship.

[biggentleben]

 

Are there any other NATO countries with a neighbor that has vowed to erase them from the planet?

 

Let's look at exactly why and how the nation of Israel came to be...

[ewen21]

 

Those sorts of comments can just have you go F straight off.

 

I did not say Israel as a government targeted Americans. Israelis at the border have. Believe it or not, not every act by every person in a country speaks for the entire belief set and behavior of that entire country. I can put that separation there. Apparently, that is more difficult on the other side of this conversation.

What incidents are you referring to?  Pull up some examples and let's discuss this please.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Oh, this is fun. So now we're in a conversation where we support the prince of a country after he pretty obviously killed a journalist and his government is now putting protestors on trial... and also a nation that continues to drift to the right and has recently started imposing restrictions on native citizens that don't match a specified religion.

 

This sounds like something I super want to be on board with, where do I sign up?

 

Seriously, get the **** out. We can tepidly support any nation in the middle east but **** all these clowns. To move behind any individual nation, especially as fervently as we have some, causes as many problems as it fixes.

Stop selling arms to the middle east. If it comes to war, let them figure it out. For about 20 years, this is a large part of the reason why I thought green energy was so important to pursue. If you don't need oil, the Middle East becomes Africa.

 

Yes, still a tragedy. Yes, we should still intervene during the worst atrocities. No, we shouldn't run their countries because that has caused most of the strife for the past millennia. Let those bastards scrap it out amongst themselves, they have massive cultural conflicts we cannot resolve as outsiders.

[biggentleben]

 

What incidents are you referring to?  Pull up some examples and let's discuss this please.

 

I'm trying to find the Vice piece on it that interviewed people from both sides, but it was based around this: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/world/middleeast/gaza-protests-palestinians-us-embassy.html

[TheLeviathan]

 

 

Yes, still a tragedy. Yes, we should still intervene during the worst atrocities. No, we shouldn't run their countries because that has caused most of the strife for the past millennia. Let those bastards scrap it out amongst themselves, they have massive cultural conflicts we cannot resolve as outsiders.

 

The problem is, would the rest of the world sit it out?  I think that's part of the problem, it's absurdly complex.

 

I don't support the shifts in Israel, I think they need to reverse those actions.  The sooner the better.  That said, to paraphrase another poster here - if you offered disarming the region for peaceful coexistence of all nations, I believe Israel accepts that offer. 

 

I also believe they may be the only nation that accepts that offer.  Now, they keep going the way they're going and we may have no one who accepts it, but I believe that's still true.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Let's look at exactly why and how the nation of Israel came to be...

 

I guess I'd like to hear you expand on that. 

 

[LaBombo]

 

I guess I'd like to hear you expand on that. 

 

[biggentleben]

 

I guess I'd like to hear you expand on that. 

 

European countries did not want to take in Jews that were being persecuted and seeking shelter. Britain stepped forward and at least offered a controlled territory near the home of the Jewish faith, their controlled territory of Palestine.

 

However, a big reason that the large European Jewish contingent ended up in Israel in the first place had to do with a rejection of the Jewish people not just in Europe, but worldwide. Those same countries in large part also saw the re-establishment of Israel as a potential step toward the end of days in their view of the Christian religion, especially a hard-right evangelical movement taking root in America at the time.(a very, very strong belief of the most ardent supporters of the country of Israel currently, which is a big reason why many want America "on the side" of Israel). America was a very, very loud voice in favor of the creation of the state of Israel by the UN after WWII.

 

The official numbers vary by what source you use, but to accommodate roughly 500K original Jewish immigrants (nearly 700K eventually migrated before the territory was officially named a state) to the newly created country, between 600K and 850K civilians were forced out of their home (the number would reach over a million before the official declaration of Israel's statehood). While the UN had proposed roughly a 55/45 split for Jews and native Palestinians, but Israelis have pushed to the point of now possessing roughly 75-80% of the original British land that was divided. That Palestinians are fighting back and wanting to reclaim at least their due 30% of the country's land should not be surprising.

 

The initial war is still referred to as the "war of independence" by Jews/Israelites. By Palestinians/Arabs, it's referred to as "the catastrophe". The forced state of Isreal has set up the defiance of the UN in the Middle East that continues to this day.

[TheLeviathan]

 

While the UN had proposed roughly a 55/45 split for Jews and native Palestinians, but Israelis have pushed to the point of now possessing roughly 75-80% of the original British land that was divided. That Palestinians are fighting back and wanting to reclaim at least their due 30% of the country's land should not be surprising.

 

The initial war is still referred to as the "war of independence" by Jews/Israelites. By Palestinians/Arabs, it's referred to as "the catastrophe". The forced state of Isreal has set up the defiance of the UN in the Middle East that continues to this day.

 

I don't know why Israel is the bad guy for most of this post.  Europe sucks and sucked big time on this issue, I'm not sure anyone would disagree about that.

 

But this part struck me.....you're aware of how that war started right?  It wasn't some aggressive act by Israel bent on land acquisition.  Now, as time as gone on the results of that war have caused major complications and for many bad acts by Israel.  But I feel like if you were being truly open and honest about this issue you wouldn't have framed these two paragraphs like this.  It betrays you a bit I think.

 

For the record....I feel for the Palestinians - they are (mostly) unwilling pawns for larger countries in the region.  If anyone truly cared about them on the Arab side we may not be where we are today.

[biggentleben]

 

I don't know why Israel is the bad guy for most of this post.  Europe sucks and sucked big time on this issue, I'm not sure anyone would disagree about that.

 

But this part struck me.....you're aware of how that war started right?  It wasn't some aggressive act by Israel bent on land acquisition.  Now, as time as gone on the results of that war have caused major complications and for many bad acts by Israel.  But I feel like if you were being truly open and honest about this issue you wouldn't have framed these two paragraphs like this.  It betrays you a bit I think.

 

For the record....I feel for the Palestinians - they are (mostly) unwilling pawns for larger countries in the region.  If anyone truly cared about them on the Arab side we may not be where we are today.

 

Europe sucked. The UN sucked. The US sucked for having a President ignore his best advisors on the issue who told him that US support for an Israeli state would lead to years of war and thousands, if not millions, of dead.

 

I know how the war started. It was a war that was threatened in defense of holy ground and Arab brothers by nearly every other country in the Middle East, but it fell on deaf ears in the White House and the U.N. That war led to even more displacement and now entitled Israelis who are not willing to even consider going back to the original 55/45 split.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Europe sucked. The UN sucked. The US sucked for having a President ignore his best advisors on the issue who told him that US support for an Israeli state would lead to years of war and thousands, if not millions, of dead.

 

I know how the war started. It was a war that was threatened in defense of holy ground and Arab brothers by nearly every other country in the Middle East, but it fell on deaf ears in the White House and the U.N. That war led to even more displacement and now entitled Israelis who are not willing to even consider going back to the original 55/45 split.

 

None of that sounds like Israel's fault either.  I think it's important to put yourself in the shoes of both groups.  They've both largely been failed by everyone around them and pitted to fight in place of larger conflicts. 

 

However, as it stands today, there is still only one side of that conflict that believes in annihilation of the other.  To me, that still matters. 

[biggentleben]

 

None of that sounds like Israel's fault either.  I think it's important to put yourself in the shoes of both groups.  They've both largely been failed by everyone around them and pitted to fight in place of larger conflicts. 

 

However, as it stands today, there is still only one side of that conflict that believes in annihilation of the other.  To me, that still matters. 

 

In large part, most of the Palestineans that are fighting simply want their land back.

 

Other Arab countries absolutely want to root out Israel. However, it's hard not to understand why they would feel that way.

 

Consider it this way. Minnesota is its own functioning state within the United States. Suddenly, the man in orange gets a great offer from his election-influencing friends, and he dedicates 55% of all Minnesotan land to Russians. No integration into the culture or any such thing. This will now be the 51st state of the Union (FU Puerto Rico!), Russia at the United States Expense, aka RUSE.

 

Give it 70 years of those Russians being in Minneapolis. You think those who lost their beloved Twins, Vikings, Wild, Timberwolves, Lynx, etc. would have forgiven the Russians by then? Let alone anyone who actually was displaced, forced from a home that had been handed down for generations or a farm that had been similarly passed down.

 

Then you start to get an idea of where the Palestineans are at...I just have trouble feeling bad for Israel. You don't want to feel threatened from all angles? Don't put yourself in the midst of dozens of countries who completely oppose your very existence. No, Israel didn't choose to be exiles, but there were active movements among the exiles for Zionism.

 

Just imagine the reaction of that country anywhere else in the world, taking land out of the hands of those who had lived there for multiple generations.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 

Then you start to get an idea of where the Palestineans are at...I just have trouble feeling bad for Israel. You don't want to feel threatened from all angles? Don't put yourself in the midst of dozens of countries who completely oppose your very existence. No, Israel didn't choose to be exiles, but there were active movements among the exiles for Zionism.

 

Yeah, you sorta lose me completely here.  I'll leave it at that.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

In large part, most of the Palestineans that are fighting simply want their land back.

 

Other Arab countries absolutely want to root out Israel. However, it's hard not to understand why they would feel that way.

 

Consider it this way. Minnesota is its own functioning state within the United States. Suddenly, the man in orange gets a great offer from his election-influencing friends, and he dedicates 55% of all Minnesotan land to Russians. No integration into the culture or any such thing. This will now be the 51st state of the Union (FU Puerto Rico!), Russia at the United States Expense, aka RUSE.

 

Give it 70 years of those Russians being in Minneapolis. You think those who lost their beloved Twins, Vikings, Wild, Timberwolves, Lynx, etc. would have forgiven the Russians by then? Let alone anyone who actually was displaced, forced from a home that had been handed down for generations or a farm that had been similarly passed down.

 

Then you start to get an idea of where the Palestineans are at...I just have trouble feeling bad for Israel. You don't want to feel threatened from all angles? Don't put yourself in the midst of dozens of countries who completely oppose your very existence. No, Israel didn't choose to be exiles, but there were active movements among the exiles for Zionism.

 

Just imagine the reaction of that country anywhere else in the world, taking land out of the hands of those who had lived there for multiple generations.

I don't understand how it's so difficult to understand that the formation of Israel was one of the worst decisions the western countries made after the war.

So now what do we do about that awful decision?

[glunn]

Moderator note -- I see valid arguments on both sides of this, but not enough respect for people who disagree. Please argue with as much passion as you feel, but be respectful of people who disagree.

 

 

[Mr. Brooks]

European countries did not want to take in Jews that were being persecuted and seeking shelter. Britain stepped forward and at least offered a controlled territory near the home of the Jewish faith, their controlled territory of Palestine.

 

However, a big reason that the large European Jewish contingent ended up in Israel in the first place had to do with a rejection of the Jewish people not just in Europe, but worldwide. Those same countries in large part also saw the re-establishment of Israel as a potential step toward the end of days in their view of the Christian religion, especially a hard-right evangelical movement taking root in America at the time.(a very, very strong belief of the most ardent supporters of the country of Israel currently, which is a big reason why many want America "on the side" of Israel). America was a very, very loud voice in favor of the creation of the state of Israel by the UN after WWII.

 

The official numbers vary by what source you use, but to accommodate roughly 500K original Jewish immigrants (nearly 700K eventually migrated before the territory was officially named a state) to the newly created country, between 600K and 850K civilians were forced out of their home (the number would reach over a million before the official declaration of Israel's statehood). While the UN had proposed roughly a 55/45 split for Jews and native Palestinians, but Israelis have pushed to the point of now possessing roughly 75-80% of the original British land that was divided. That Palestinians are fighting back and wanting to reclaim at least their due 30% of the country's land should not be surprising.

 

The initial war is still referred to as the "war of independence" by Jews/Israelites. By Palestinians/Arabs, it's referred to as "the catastrophe". The forced state of Isreal has set up the defiance of the UN in the Middle East that continues to this day.

Can you name a single nation in the world that didn't, at some point in history, acquire their land at the expense of others?

 

Would you have trouble feeling sorry for me if a Native American reservation announced they wanted to eradicate me and my family from the face of the earth, then made near daily attempts to do so?

[Craig Arko]

Can you name a single nation in the world that didn't, at some point in history, acquire their land at the expense of others?

Would you have trouble feeling sorry for me if a Native American reservation announced they wanted to eradicate me and my family from the face of the earth, then made near daily attempts to do so?

I know, they might build an oil pipeline through your home.

[ewen21]

 

I don't understand how it's so difficult to understand that the formation of Israel was one of the worst decisions the western countries made after the war.

So now what do we do about that awful decision?

That really isn't the discussion and it is hindsight.  Nothing we can do about it now, but honestly, after suffering through the Holocaust the free world decided something must be done and Israel has been a sovereign state since.  That is a whole lot more than anyone can say about the other countries in the Middle East.  Since some want to look back on the "mistake" made in 1947 with regret, I must ask......what should have been done?  Honestly.  Would it be a better policy to just have given them asylum here?  Like we have done with Somalians and other Muslim nations?  Is that answer?  Or should we be more like Sweden?  I know some are pretty fond of that government.  I would suggest anyone who thinks Sweden is so awesome go ask someone who has been there recently so they can tell you what an effect Muslim immigration has had in their cities (and the insane amount of rape and violent crime perpetrated by that segment of their population is responsible for)

 

I am not seeing Israeli folks posing safety threats to Americans.  Israel doesn't play, though.  You mess with them and they will fight back.  

 

 

And that really is the end of the discussion as to why we support Israel.  

 

My initial statement: "I like the fact that Israel doesn't target Americans" is the one that I am centering the discussion around.  Let me add, I also like the fact that Israel citizens have not mass-emigrated to the US fleeing tyranny, strife and war only to land on US soil unwilling to assimilate, all the while collecting benefits for doing nothing.  Lest we now forget, Islam is a religion centered on the worship of a warrior prophet.  It's most fanatical elements are an overt threat to western society.  Israel is not.  They target civilians around the globe and gladly take credit for it.  Israel does not.

 

 

[Craig Arko]

Simple and obvious solution: relocate the State of Israel. Someplace where the people will be welcoming and neighborly. I suggest Texas.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

If anyone cares to educate themselves on the reference to Sweden earlier:

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/crime-sweden-rape-capital-europe/

[ewen21]

 

If anyone cares to educate themselves on the reference to Sweden earlier:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/crime-sweden-rape-capital-europe/

 

And of course, anyone can do their own search and register a whole lot more than this one source

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

And of course, anyone can do their own search and register a whole lot more than this one source

Go for it. Show your work. Post in thread or PM me. Please be mindful of your sources (“well Trump said...” won’t cut it). Also feel free to re-engage my question to you on that other thread.

[ewen21]

 

Go for it. Show your work. Post in thread or PM me. Please be mindful of your sources (“well Trump said...” won’t cut it). Also feel free to re-engage my question to you on that other thread.

I did not get this from the Trump statement.  I totally knew that assumption was going to be made.

 

I don't have the time right now, since I work I brought home this weekend and family stuff later, but I will gladly explain that your assumption about my source is off the charts wrong.  

[PseudoSABR]

 

Would you have trouble feeling sorry for me if a Native American reservation announced they wanted to eradicate me and my family from the face of the earth, then made near daily attempts to do so?

Not really honestly.  Especially if you can use Native American genocide as some part of pro-Israel argument.  

 

Yes, violent Palestinians are awful.  But the whole concept of Israel is unethical and just like Native American reservations.  That people respond violently to unethical treatment is an obvious consequence.

 

Maybe Israel should stop settlements, before crying the victim.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

Maybe Israel should stop settlements, before crying the victim.  

 

They should.  They also should not have been attacked for being put into existence.

 

I dislike when either side simplifies this.  It was a stupid decision to put Israel there and the victims of that stupid decision were Israel and the Palestinians.  We have to stop framing either side as purely evil or good.

 

And we should remember that if there is a real bad guy in this, it's probably the Arab nations that hate Israel and use the Palestinian lives as political fodder.  The two sides we keep trying to pick between are not the real issue.  It's the meddling of the West and the ill-intents of the other Arab nations.

[PseudoSABR]

 

They should.  They also should not have been attacked for being put into existence.

 

I dislike when either side simplifies this.  It was a stupid decision to put Israel there and the victims of that stupid decision were Israel and the Palestinians.  We have to stop framing either side as purely evil or good.

 

And we should remember that if there is a real bad guy in this, it's probably the Arab nations that hate Israel and use the Palestinian lives as political fodder.  The two sides we keep trying to pick between are not the real issue.  It's the meddling of the West and the ill-intents of the other Arab nations.

That's fair.  But your if we rained muffins nothing would change slogan is disingenuous, stopping settlement would be meaningful step, and one worth taking.

 

As long as the Israels continue to dilute the Palestinian population through settlement, I won't shed one tear for them.  

 

Imagine if we were actively, moving white people on to Reservations (as crappy as that land is); do you think it would go over well among the Native Americans.

 

It's one thing to say that the formation of Israel was so long ago, but it's another to ignore that the Israels are actively working against two-state solution through settlement.  It's not unlike what China has done to Tibet.  

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I did not get this from the Trump statement.  I totally knew that assumption was going to be made.

 

I don't have the time right now, since I work I brought home this weekend and family stuff later, but I will gladly explain that your assumption about my source is off the charts wrong.

 

Yes I was assuming it, so I’m glad I typed it out explicitly to remove all doubt

 

However, I doubt I would trust (why should I?) anything any hate-stoking politician would say on this subject, regardless of what country they are from. But I know nothing about Sweden so am open to learning something.

[TheLeviathan]

 

That's fair.  But your if we rained muffins nothing would change slogan is disingenuous, stopping settlement would be meaningful step, and one worth taking.

 

Except I'm not sure it would.  Israel has offered concessions in the past as part of peace deals.  So have the Palestinians.  And both sides, at various times, have botched finalizing those or had side-intentions that hindered those moves.

 

Everyone agrees offering to roll back settlements is part of the road map to peace, the problem is getting both sides to offer meaningful concessions towards peace.  Expecting the side that is being threatened with genocide to give in as the first step probably isn't the right move.

 

Maybe we should all agree genocide is wrong and the existence of all states is legitimate first.  That might make concessions easier for all.  I can't imagine any concession moves the needle so long as there are still multiple nations declaring Israel's genocide a goal.  (And let's avoid bad analogies...they don't help)

[TheLeviathan]

Rest assured though....we found the real villain.

 

(Posted more for absurdity...right down to the Venmo link)