General politics

[Champuckett]

 

My god. No.

How do you think Breitbart and DailyKOS started, anyway?

Because you just described how they started and became media empires. Yet I asked how media should be called out for its transgressions and face repercussions.

 

I don't mean to go at you too hard but you really haven't thought this through very well. In fact, I'd say you haven't thought this through at all.

 

You're basically a libertarian right now. All ideology, absolutely no realization of its effects, no care about its repercussions, and then throwing up your hands after things go to hell and saying "YOU DIDN'T TRY HARD ENOUGH".

 

Breitbart and DailyKos are no different than any other media institution at their core, other than being relatively newly formed platforms, and the former acting as nothing more than a honeypot for Trump supporters and for citizens looking for alternatives to legacy corporate media, including Fox News.

 

The media can be rejected by the people, which is something that is well underway, by simply shining a light on the false idea that it is currently existing to serve the people.  Every story, every article, from all political persuasions are written with an intent to direct thought and behavior, and ultimately divide, not to cover newly available information.  The demand for this is increasing and the outcry against traditional media is rising.  The focus of this rejection right now tends to be on the left leaning corporate media, but will greatly expand into alternative news that pretends to have a home for right-leaning, conservative, libertarian and political refugees.

 

The long term repercussions as a result, would be the permanent elimination of these media empires.

 

As to the repercussions on the people, of which there are none, but the release of the shackles on our minds, and the restoration of day to day free thought and will power.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Perhaps the poster is in fact a libertarian, but labeling him/her as such seems to me like an example of the inside-the-box thinking the poster is trying to persuade us out of. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

 

Watch this video as an example.  The video might be instructive for you as to what I said.  Check out the likes compared to the dislikes, look at the comments and listen to what the guy says about Minneapolis in particular.  Uh-huh.

 

 

I dig the guy in the first video, by the way. He's not saying much different that I have been saying (except for the MAGA hat stuff, etc.).

[Craig Arko]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ciVE7s4000

[NumberThree]

Wasn't sure where to put this ... is here okay?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IABRgZH12YA

[biggentleben]

 

The thing I like about Israel is they don't attack Ameican citizens.

 

Not true. Multiple documented such attacks in Palestine of late. Vice News had an excellent piece on it roughly last summer.

[LaBombo]

 

Not true. Multiple documented such attacks in Palestine of late. Vice News had an excellent piece on it roughly last summer.

 

I would definitely be interested in viewing it but I'm not able to find it, or anything in any media, for that matter, about Israel adopting a state policy of targeting American citizens. I'm a bit surprised that the only two vocal supporters of BDS in the House have been silent on said policy.

 

 

[MMMordabito]

 

Sounds like clocking out on consuming news (well except for baseball news and concert tour date news) is probably the way to go. I hear it's actually really good for the psyche. I wonder if my curiosity can be held in check though.

 

 

Sounds about right.  Just addressing it for what it really is, entertainment, is all that needs to be done.  And being aware that we are on a daily basis, made to believe these are the issues we should be focusing on.  Why should we be focusing on them, what about this information over here or over there.  As long as it is consistently questioned and not accepted as the focus, I think it's a healthy start.

 

And yes, dropping 100% of the daily load of negativity and fear consumption, and working on yourself, and your family, and your community, will prove better in the long run, for everyone.

 

So I'm into day 6 of doing this, and I have to say I think it's the way to go.  I heard from others about the Russell Westbrook vs. Jazz fan story, and then my super conservative co-worker comes in and talks trash about Ilian Omar on a daily basis.  That's it though.  I've turned off all notifications from any app that even thinks about sending political news.  I think everyone should try this.  2019 is looking up!!

[biggentleben]

 

I would definitely be interested in viewing it but I'm not able to find it, or anything in any media, for that matter, about Israel adopting a state policy of targeting American citizens. I'm a bit surprised that the only two vocal supporters of BDS in the House have been silent on said policy.

 

Obviously not. The comment was that Israel did not attack American citizens. Israelis have killed Americans in their recent attacks. That used to bring extreme negative reaction, but it's now essentially brushed over.

[ewen21]

 

I would definitely be interested in viewing it but I'm not able to find it, or anything in any media, for that matter, about Israel adopting a state policy of targeting American citizens. I'm a bit surprised that the only two vocal supporters of BDS in the House have been silent on said policy.

I figured this wouldn't need to be explained, but I was wrong

 

There seems to be no distinciton made with regard to intent or modus operandi

[PseudoSABR]

[TheLeviathan]

I do think it would be a tremendously smart thing politically and economically.  

[PseudoSABR]

 

I do think it would be a tremendously smart thing politically and economically.  

I think you have to dovetail this idea with eliminating student loan system altogether and have college paid for for qualified individuals (along with vocation schools etc.). 

 

Forgiving student loans wouldn't cost anything if we eliminate the federal loans altogether.  I'm pretty sure student loan repayment goes back into the pool of money available for such student loans (but I could be misremebering).  

[PseudoSABR]

[Brock Beauchamp]

Honestly, I'm wildly against complete loan forgiveness. I knew loads of people who took absolutely stupid loans while I stayed at a local school and got a good education.

Now, mind you, I'm also cognizant that I did this in the late 90s but the principle still stands: bad decisions lead to bad outcomes.

I am in favor of leniency with loans; should we give a certain amount of forgiveness? Absolutely. But for Christ's sake, we need some sort of personal responsibility factored in here.

I went to a cheap, local school (thanks, California!). My wife had scholarships up the ass to go to all sorts of schools, yet she chose the one that paid *everything* for law school and skipped not only the tuition but also all the boarding fees.

She had a similar student (and friend) who had *worse* grades but so badly wanted to go *explore* that she went to Boston and racked up literally $150k in student loans.

Should I forgive that? HELL ****ING NO. She made that decision, that's on her. She needs to live with that bad decision. This isn't cancer or some unavoidable thing and she was 25 years old when she made that decision. She needs to own at least part of it. Society doesn't need to pick up the slack of her stupidity.

If we want to temper loan forgiveness, sign me up. If we want to forgive rampant stupidity, no, I won't sign up for that.

[Brock Beauchamp]

To a point, if we want to forgive... I'll just throw a number out there. $20k. Maybe $30k. I'd angle more toward percentages, though... maybe 50% up to $50k, then 10% afterward.

 

Whatever. But I am absolutely against these kids running up huge numbers against other, more logical, choices, and then expecting the world to forgive them for their mistakes.

I did not go to an art school I was accepted to because I saw the tuition and said "nope". It was a soul-crushing decision but I did it because literally $22k a year versus $2k a year was a no brainer (and this was late 90s money).

If I could make that decision, so can everyone else. It's not my job to bail them out completely, though I'm certainly open to helping them.

[Mike Sixel]

To a point, if we want to forgive... I'll just throw a number out there. $20k. Maybe $30k. I'd angle more toward percentages, though... maybe 50% up to $50k, then 10% afterward.

 

Whatever. But I am absolutely against these kids running up huge numbers against other, more logical, choices, and then expecting the world to forgive them for their mistakes.

 

I literally did not go to an art school I was accepted to because I saw the tuition and said "nope". It was a soul-crushing decision but I did it because literally $22k a year versus $2k a year was a no brainer (and this was late 90s money).

 

If I could make that decision, so can everyone else. It's not my job to bail them out completely, though I'm certainly open to helping them.

You realize it costs 20000 per year for MN in state tuition, at the less expensive schools, right? So, one year? That schools and loan companies have conspired to raise tuition ridiculously fast? That some kids would get crushed in big schools, so choose smaller, more expensive, schools for good reasons?

 

I could be up for major changes to how school is funded, but I don't know what that is. Just giving students money means schools just raise costs.....

 

I'm in the forgive percentages camp, though what those are is hard to say.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

You realize it costs 20000 per year for MN in state tuition, at the less expensive schools, right? So, one year? That schools and loan companies have conspired to raise tuition ridiculously fast? That some kids would get crushed in big schools, so choose smaller, more expensive, schools for good reasons?

I could be up for major changes to how school is funded, but I don't know what that is. Just giving students money means schools just raise costs.....

I'm in the forgive percentages camp, though what those are is hard to say.

The bolded makes no sense in the greater context of the argument.

There are huge problems in our higher education, that's why I am in favor for a percentage of forgiveness.

 

But I will not be in favor of complete forgiveness because I know too many people who made asinine decisions and I will not be a part of that.

 

Government's role is to help people, not to rescue the dumbest of us, especially if they're middle class and just made the worst decision possible.

[Mike Sixel]

Your argument seemed to be expensive schools are only chosen as a mistake, or that we should reimburse people as if they went to less expensive schools, because going to more expensive ones is just a choice.. when for some kids, it's not a random, priveledged, choice. But maybe I misunderstood your point....

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Your argument seemed to be expensive schools are only chosen as a mistake, or that we should reimburse people as if they went to less expensive schools, because going to more expensive ones is just a choice.. when for some kids, it's not a random, priveledged, choice. But maybe I misunderstood your point....

Or maybe my point is that expensive schools are too expensive for what they deliver.

 

We need to bring down the price of all schools but expensive schools have been the worst offenders of the bunch.

 

And I won't pay for those mistakes, or the people who benefited from (or suffered) said mistakes.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Or maybe my point is that expensive schools are too expensive for what they deliver.

 

We need to bring down the price of all schools but expensive schools have been the worst offenders of the bunch.

 

And I won't pay for those mistakes, or the people who benefited from (or suffered) said mistakes.

 

I'm not going to disagree that there are people that abused the loan system for dumb, frivolous choices.  But not all people.  Some of us just grew up in tiny towns and were given no guidance at all as dumb 17 year olds.  We were told how much money we'd make and never taught to worry about those financials.

 

Now, my wife and I are in no danger with our loans, but they do trample on our lifestyle choices.  You know what I'd do in a heartbeat?  I'd take the credit hit to declare bankruptcy on them, remove my ignorant choices as a know nothing kid, and build back my credit.  Same way we allow all sorts of people to undo dumb or failed choices.  As a responsible adult, I'll have my credit score back up to near perfect in no time and I won't have a yoke around my neck from being stupid, a kid, and forced to make huge,long term financial decisions.

 

The simple truth is that 17/18 year olds should not be making 100k decisions.  Very few of them have the training and understanding of the system for that.  While many kids double-screwed themselves, the system itself has screwed pretty much all of us that went to college.  The system should correct the mistake with massive loan forgiveness, do away with the loan system for but a few, and come down HARD on the universities that have grown fat off of dumb kids.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I'm not going to disagree that there are people that abused the loan system for dumb, frivolous choices.  But not all people.  Some of us just grew up in tiny towns and were given no guidance at all as dumb 17 year olds.  We were told how much money we'd make and never taught to worry about those financials.

 

Now, my wife and I are in no danger with our loans, but they do trample on our lifestyle choices.  You know what I'd do in a heartbeat?  I'd take the credit hit to declare bankruptcy on them, remove my ignorant choices as a know nothing kid, and build back my credit.  Same way we allow all sorts of people to undo dumb or failed choices.  As a responsible adult, I'll have my credit score back up to near perfect in no time and I won't have a yoke around my neck from being stupid, a kid, and forced to make huge,long term financial decisions.

 

The simple truth is that 17/18 year olds should not be making 100k decisions.  Very few of them have the training and understanding of the system for that.  While many kids double-screwed themselves, the system itself has screwed pretty much all of us that went to college.  The system should correct the mistake with massive loan forgiveness, do away with the loan system for but a few, and come down HARD on the universities that have grown fat off of dumb kids.

And I think relieving people like you and your wife is a good idea, which is why I threw out the $20-30k number. I understand that kids are being exploited and the hammer needs to come down on universities for what they're doing.

 

But it hardly seems right that both my wife and I sacrificed things we wanted to do to get through school with little or no debt. We both watched others around us go out of state or go to a private school and come out the other side with six figure debt.

 

Why should those people be absolved of that mistake? Give them relief, sure, but handing them a get out of jail free card on my dime is not something I'm interested in doing. It is not my responsibility to bail people out of their mistakes, though this is such a large problem that I'm certainly open to lending a hand in assistance (along with massive changes to the entire system).

[Badsmerf]

I'm not going to disagree that there are people that abused the loan system for dumb, frivolous choices. But not all people. Some of us just grew up in tiny towns and were given no guidance at all as dumb 17 year olds. We were told how much money we'd make and never taught to worry about those financials.

 

Now, my wife and I are in no danger with our loans, but they do trample on our lifestyle choices. You know what I'd do in a heartbeat? I'd take the credit hit to declare bankruptcy on them, remove my ignorant choices as a know nothing kid, and build back my credit. Same way we allow all sorts of people to undo dumb or failed choices. As a responsible adult, I'll have my credit score back up to near perfect in no time and I won't have a yoke around my neck from being stupid, a kid, and forced to make huge,long term financial decisions.

 

The simple truth is that 17/18 year olds should not be making 100k decisions. Very few of them have the training and understanding of the system for that. While many kids double-screwed themselves, the system itself has screwed pretty much all of us that went to college. The system should correct the mistake with massive loan forgiveness, do away with the loan system for but a few, and come down HARD on the universities that have grown fat off of dumb kids.

Couldn't have said it better. I pay $700 a month for student loans for my wife and I... and she only went to school for 2 years. I've been paying on these loans for 10 years now, and just recently have started making a dent in them (mostly by throwing extra money from my bonus in January at them).

 

I didn't have a firm grasp on what happens after college, nor did either of my parents... and the guidance counselors were absolutely no help for me. I took out the loans, and I'm responsible for that. However, colleges are praying on kids like me... and many don't have the jobs to pay for these loans we were "promised." I graduated in 2008... and couldn't pay to get a job.

 

I'm not sure a complete forgiveness across the board is in order, but I see the merit. The system is broken, and this case of paying to get into college really highlights a problem in this country. I'll likely be paying for these loans another 10 years, while some patents are throwing $500k just to get their kids into school... and I'm doubting that kid will have loans at the end of the day. I will certainly help my kids make more informed decisions than I did, but I hope things are different by then.

[TheLeviathan]

 

And I think relieving people like you and your wife is a good idea, which is why I threw out the $20-30k number. I understand that kids are being exploited and the hammer needs to come down on universities for what they're doing.

 

But it hardly seems right that both my wife and I sacrificed things we wanted to do to get through school with little or no debt. We both watched others around us go out of state or go to a private school and come out the other side with six figure debt.

 

Why should those people be absolved of that mistake? Give them relief, sure, but handing them a get out of jail free card on my dime is not something I'm interested in doing. It is not my responsibility to bail people out of their mistakes, though this is such a large problem that I'm certainly open to lending a hand in assistance (along with massive changes to the entire system).

 

That sucks for you and I appreciate how you did this the right way, but I would have too had I been given the kind of instruction I needed.  My parents were not college graduates, my school was so small we didn't even have a functional guidance counselor, and I had no concept of what was going on.  I was 17.

 

For most people it isn't absolving them of a mistake as much as freeing them from a system they got sucked into.  Unfortunately, I think partial solutions won't work to solve the problem.  

 

Or hell, just let me declare bankruptcy on them.  I'll take responsibility for it, deal with the consequences.  Giving me no options or some partial forgiveness is not a solution.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

That sucks for you and I appreciate how you did this the right way, but I would have too had I been given the kind of instruction I needed.  My parents were not college graduates, my school was so small we didn't even have a functional guidance counselor, and I had no concept of what was going on.  I was 17.

 

For most people it isn't absolving them of a mistake as much as freeing them from a system they got sucked into.  Unfortunately, I think partial solutions won't work to solve the problem.  

 

Or hell, just let me declare bankruptcy on them.  I'll take responsibility for it, deal with the consequences.  Giving me no options or some partial forgiveness is not a solution.

I don't see how offering a household tens of thousands of dollars of relief isn't an option. It seems like the most obvious option to me, the only one that tackles the problem without saddling a large section of America with trillions of dollars of unfair debt they did nothing to "earn".

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't see how offering a household tens of thousands of dollars of relief isn't an option. It seems like the most obvious option to me, the only one that tackles the problem without saddling a large section of America with trillions of dollars of unfair debt they did nothing to "earn".

 

Because the root problem remains.  And 30,000 off of a loan you are only paying the interest on every month doesn't change the day to day problem for anyone either.

[PseudoSABR]

 

And I think relieving people like you and your wife is a good idea, which is why I threw out the $20-30k number. I understand that kids are being exploited and the hammer needs to come down on universities for what they're doing.

 

But it hardly seems right that both my wife and I sacrificed things we wanted to do to get through school with little or no debt. We both watched others around us go out of state or go to a private school and come out the other side with six figure debt.

 

Why should those people be absolved of that mistake? Give them relief, sure, but handing them a get out of jail free card on my dime is not something I'm interested in doing. It is not my responsibility to bail people out of their mistakes, though this is such a large problem that I'm certainly open to lending a hand in assistance (along with massive changes to the entire system).

This is the same kind of argument against raising the minimum wage coming from a person who already makes $15 an hour. 

 

It was never possible for me or my family to get me through undergrad debt free.  I worked, I had scholarships, went to the cheapest state school, and I still needed loans.  Maybe I should have lived at home with my parents, is your point.  Sacrifices and privileges start to blur at some point. 

 

It's great that you and your wife were mature enough to realize the potential costs of having debt from college.  MOST HUMANS ARE NOT THAT MATURE at 17 or 18; that kind of maturity itself is a privilege often one taught by good parents.  I see no good lesson being brought to bear by teaching them personal responsibility for a loan they took out as easily as a candy.   I just don't understand your desire to keep others saddled with debt because you choose the smarter path, you've derived a benefit from that for what the past 20 years?  (In my day, we didn't have health care, we just died!!!)

 

And next time I see some one say "personal responsibility," they better damn well be against limited liability; because we can't be holding the poor to their reckless education decisions and allowing the rich to make reckless business decisions and get off scotch free.

[Mike Sixel]

 

And I think relieving people like you and your wife is a good idea, which is why I threw out the $20-30k number. I understand that kids are being exploited and the hammer needs to come down on universities for what they're doing.

 

But it hardly seems right that both my wife and I sacrificed things we wanted to do to get through school with little or no debt. We both watched others around us go out of state or go to a private school and come out the other side with six figure debt.

 

Why should those people be absolved of that mistake? Give them relief, sure, but handing them a get out of jail free card on my dime is not something I'm interested in doing. It is not my responsibility to bail people out of their mistakes, though this is such a large problem that I'm certainly open to lending a hand in assistance (along with massive changes to the entire system).

 

I like you, and we generally agree, but you sound like grumpy old man here.....why should we help those other people, when I pulled myself up by myself? That's how you sound, whether you mean to or not. 

 

And, you may be right, but I'm with Psuedo.....even my son that chose Morris because of the cost has over 40K in debt, and that's only because I paid a ton for him. If we couldn't have helped him, it would be closer to 100K. To go to a small, public, "inexpensive" school. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

I like you, and we generally agree, but you sound like grumpy old man here.....why should we help those other people, when I pulled myself up by myself? That's how you sound, whether you mean to or not.

 

And, you may be right, but I'm with Psuedo.....even my son that chose Morris because of the cost has over 40K in debt, and that's only because I paid a ton for him. If we couldn't have helped him, it would be closer to 100K. To go to a small, public, "inexpensive" school.

Yeah, I’m grumpy because I believe if someone signs their name to a bad contract, it isn’t my responsibility to bail them out entirely. I had the identical sentiment about the housing crisis. I wanted to see people get assistance but it wasn’t my responsibility to bail out a $60k/yr household that purchased a $500k house on an interest-only loan.

 

I will happily give someone a hand to get off the ground. I won’t pick them up and carry them if they are perfectly capable of walking.

 

We’re literally talking about trillions of dollars here. This kind of program comes at the expense of other programs. Budgets are a zero sum game.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Yeah, I’m grumpy because I believe if someone signs their name to a bad contract, it isn’t my responsibility to bail them out entirely. I had the identical sentiment about the housing crisis. I wanted to see people get assistance but it wasn’t my responsibility to bail out a $60k/yr household that purchased a $500k house on an interest-only loan.

I will happily give someone a hand to get off the ground. I won’t pick them up and carry them if they are perfectly capable of walking.

We’re literally talking about trillions of dollars here. This kind of program comes at the expense of other programs. Budgets are a zero sum game.

 

For some people, on this issue, they aren't capable of walking.  Just to stick with your analogy.

 

We have a system of price gouging, massive loans (which are not possible in anything but this), and no bankruptcy all combined to cause a unique problem.  It's not a solution I love either, but the economic benefit we would get for this cost would be tremendous.

 

Again, there is simply no reason why a 17 year old, with no collateral, should be able to take out 10s of thousands (much less hundreds), and have no recourse later.  That's just not wise.  And for many people 30k off their loans changes nothing on a daily basis.