General politics

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

 

We've had "teams" in politics for as long as there have been societies.  We have had hate and factions.  Perhaps the media is not causing the issues at all, perhaps the issue is within human nature itself.  Media might fan the flames, but it isn't the root cause or the origin.

 

I really can't disagree with this part of your comment, especially as it relates to the U.S. having been split into two sides from the beginning. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

ON TOPIC, WARNING 

 

****, now we're all idiots again thanks to you.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I really can't disagree with this part of your comment, especially as it relates to the U.S. having been split into two sides from the beginning. 

 

Hasn't that largely been the case everywhere?  I imagine it's because both sides benefit from having a sharp dichotomy where you have to choose sides.

[Champuckett]

 

Shouldn't you be able to answer the first question before you make that conclusion?  If media's corrosive impact has always existed, why only now is the problem occurring?

 

We've had "teams" in politics for as long as there have been societies.  We have had hate and factions.  Perhaps the media is not causing the issues at all, perhaps the issue is within human nature itself.  Media might fan the flames, but it isn't the root cause or the origin.

 

If it was, you should be able to show how humanity was humming along nicely until the "media" ruined the party.

 

I don't think so, I don't have every last bit of evidence in front of me, nor does anyone.  And there have always been problems, societal problems, brought on by what the media pushes.

 

And I agree, we have always had teams, but there are more teams now than than previously and they are meant to stand against each other with more ferocity than ever before as well.  If the narrative wants to create more friction between the groups, then it will.  If it doesn't, then it won't.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't think so, I don't have every last bit of evidence in front of me, nor does anyone.  And there have always been problems, societal problems, brought on by what the media pushes.

 

And I agree, we have always had teams, but there are more teams now than than previously and they are meant to stand against each other with more ferocity than ever before as well.  If the narrative wants to create more friction between the groups, then it will.  If it doesn't, then it won't.

 

How are there more teams?  Hasn't your contention been that there are only two teams and that limitation is part of the problem?  I can't make sense of tha tcomment.

 

Factions have existed before there was even anything like what we call "media".  Why is your hang-up on the media if you can't provide any evidence to substantiate that claim?

[Champuckett]

 

****, now we're all idiots again thanks to you.

 

Your words, not mine. 

[Champuckett]

 

 

How are there more teams?  Hasn't your contention been that there are only two teams and that limitation is part of the problem?  I can't make sense of tha tcomment.

 

Factions have existed before there was even anything like what we call "media".  Why is your hang-up on the media if you can't provide any evidence to substantiate that claim?

 

My contention is yes, there are 2 political teams.  But there are more teams now, like black vs white, black vs hispanics, conservatives vs islam, islam vs judiasm, transgender vs conservatives, gays vs conservatives, progressives vs israel, police vs blacks, police vs citizens, government vs citizens, trump vs the people, city folk vs hill billies, conservatives vs hollywood.  There are a ton and many more that I missed that I'm sure others could point out, and these are just a short list of these battles. 

 

Yes some of these battles have existed in the past and have been ongoing for quite sometime, but the media has been pushing all of these at the most intense levels I have personally ever seen.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 

Yes some of these battles have existed in the past and have been ongoing for quite sometime, but the media has been pushing all of these at the most intense levels I have personally ever seen.

 

I don't know if you notice, but I do: your claims continue to retreat. 

 

I don't know what "most intense level" means and I'm not sure your personal range of "seeing" is relevant to the claim you're making.  In fact, you should probably ignore something that subjective altogether when making such an argument.

[Champuckett]

 

I don't know if you notice, but I do: your claims continue to retreat. 

 

I don't know what "most intense level" means and I'm not sure your personal range of "seeing" is relevant to the claim you're making.  In fact, you should probably ignore something that subjective altogether when making such an argument.

 

There are many openly talking about some kind of civil war coming, tensions being high.  Revolutions coming, etc.  Whether or not any of this is true is up to each of us.  But would you agree that racial and political party tensions are higher than they were 10 years ago.

[TheLeviathan]

 

There are many openly talking about some kind of civil war coming, tensions being high.  Revolutions coming, etc.  Whether or not any of this is true is up to each of us.  But would you agree that racial and political party tensions are higher than they were 10 years ago.

 

You know we had an actual civil war at one point right?

[Champuckett]

 

You know we had an actual civil war at one point right?

 

Yes, of course.  But that didn't answer my inquiry.

[TheLeviathan]

 

ON TOPIC, WARNING

 

The leniency of the Manafort sentence, and the Judge's comments, demonstrate how far reaching tribalism goes.   

 

I will join you back on topic.  I raise your Manafort with a Kushner.

[Badsmerf]

I will join you back on topic. I raise your Manafort with a Kushner.

Kushner's methods with Saudi Arabia continue to muddy the waters. The use of American made weapons to target children, the death of the journalist, and the torture of the doctor... among other things.... are reasons we should be critical of Saudi Arabia. I wouldn't go so far to think it is about finances for Kushner, just a reckless methodology.

 

On the Manafort sentencing... Really disappointing a guy can launder and tax evade millions of dollars, but very less time in prison than first time non violent drug offenses. I question the comments the judge has made in the case, and how he justified reducing the suggested time to serve. 20 years would have been excessive, but less than 4 (with 9 already counted as served)?

[TheLeviathan]

 

Kushner's methods with Saudi Arabia continue to muddy the waters. The use of American made weapons to target children, the death of the journalist, and the torture of the doctor... among other things.... are reasons we should be critical of Saudi Arabia. I wouldn't go so far to think it is about finances for Kushner, just a reckless methodology.

 

I wish we were privy to why the CIA didn't want him to have a clearance.  I can't accuse him of wrong doing based on this, but the dude is shady.

[Mike Sixel]

 

ON TOPIC, WARNING

 

The leniency of the Manafort sentence, and the Judge's comments, demonstrate how far reaching tribalism goes.   

 

There is an amazing twitter thread about how minorities and poor people who steal 100 dollars get more time than this....among other crimes that pale.....

[PseudoSABR]

 

There is an amazing twitter thread about how minorities and poor people who steal 100 dollars get more time than this....among other crimes that pale.....

Same judge sentenced a guy to 40 years for a meth possession because that's what the guidelines suggested (due to his priors no doubt), and the judge said something like "although it's excessive, I follow the law"

[TheLeviathan]

I'm sure the outpouring of anger from the right about this activist judge is coming any second....

[Mike Sixel]

 

I'm sure the outpouring of anger from the right about this activist judge is coming any second....

 

soft on crime.....

[LaBombo]

 

I'm sure the outpouring of anger from the right about this activist judge is coming any second....

 

You mean like the unanimous Democrat outrage over Ilhan Omar's despicable and ominous remarks about Israel "hypnotizing" the world and its supporters being disloyal Americans?

 

And the resolution condemning her specifically? And the resulting removal from the Foreign Affairs Committee that she clearly has no business being on now?

 

Is that the kind of outrage you mean?

 

Should Manafort have gotten a longer sentence? Probably, but he's not violent and the deterrence to other offenders is that Manafort was caught, humiliated, and is now and forever a felon. Lack of punishment beyond that is more a failure to sate Democrats' bloodlust than it is a breakdown in the justice system.

 

Meanwhile, the 5th District's Rep is still a rising star in the party who will almost certainly continue to exhibit her appalling attitudes toward Jews.

[Mike Sixel]

 

You mean like the unanimous Democrat outrage over Ilhan Omar's despicable and ominous remarks about Israel "hypnotizing" the world and its supporters being disloyal Americans?

 

And the resolution condemning her specifically? And the resulting removal from the Foreign Affairs Committee that she clearly has no business being on now?

 

Is that the kind of outrage you mean?

 

Should Manafort have gotten a longer sentence? Probably, but he's not violent and the deterrence to other offenders is that Manafort was caught, humiliated, and is now a felon.

 

Meanwhile, the 5th District's Rep is still a rising star in the party who will almost certainly continue to exhibit her hatred of Jews.

 

a: plenty of Jews have stated that she attacked Israel's policies, not Jews. I don't know what her real feelings are, but her words were clearly not about Jews.

 

b: She's no rising star, and I'd bet good money she's one and done. Even if she is re-elected, she's no rising star.

 

c: They did actually condemn her.....unlike the GOP and Rep. King's racist remarks, a man that keeps getting elected (as one example).

[TheLeviathan]

 

You mean like the unanimous Democrat outrage over Ilhan Omar's despicable and ominous remarks about Israel "hypnotizing" the world and its supporters being disloyal Americans?

 

And the resolution condemning her specifically? And the resulting removal from the Foreign Affairs Committee that she clearly has no business being on now?

 

Is that the kind of outrage you mean?

 

Should Manafort have gotten a longer sentence? Probably, but he's not violent and the deterrence to other offenders is that Manafort was caught, humiliated, and is now and forever a felon. Lack of punishment beyond that is more a failure to sate Democrats' bloodlust than it is a breakdown in the justice system.

 

Meanwhile, the 5th District's Rep is still a rising star in the party who will almost certainly continue to exhibit her appalling attitudes toward Jews.

 

My issue is hypocrisy and consistency.  You know full well I hold both sides to that.  

 

Frankly, I think the Dems overreacted to Omar's comments.  I think she said dumb, borderline things.  She should've been scolded privately and waited for something like this when the pattern proved too large.

 

Republicans have said far, far worse and had far, far less attention and scrutiny on it.  I'm not one to tar and feather people for saying stupid things.  (Though...I grant, the left does play that game.  And on that front, they are being hypocrites.  However, the Dems in office are not typically that version of "left".  They tend to be the rational left that, for some reason, we're trying to run out of town)

[Mike Sixel]

 

My issue is hypocrisy and consistency.  You know full well I hold both sides to that.  

 

Frankly, I think the Dems overreacted to Omar's comments.  I think she said dumb, borderline things.  She should've been scolded privately and waited for something like this when the pattern proved too large.

 

Republicans have said far, far worse and had far, far less attention and scrutiny on it.  I'm not one to tar and feather people for saying stupid things.  (Though...I grant, the left does play that game.  And on that front, they are being hypocrites.  However, the Dems in office are not typically that version of "left".  They tend to be the rational left that, for some reason, we're trying to run out of town)

 

I'd guess people are tired of the rational left not actually accomplishing anything at all.....that's a guess, but it's certainly where I am. All they've really done is make things worse, by capitulating to "tough on crime" among other things, and being generally so boring and unable to do things, that they can't control the House even though a huge majority of the population agrees more with left leaning policy than right leaning policy. In sum, they just aren't very good at actually achieving anything meaningful. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'd guess people are tired of the rational left not actually accomplishing anything at all.....that's a guess, but it's certainly where I am. All they've really done is make things worse, by capitulating to "tough on crime" among other things, and being generally so boring and unable to do things, that they can't control the House even though a huge majority of the population agrees more with left leaning policy than right leaning policy. In sum, they just aren't very good at actually achieving anything meaningful. 

 

That's fair.  They are inept.  They're also less prone to being ridiculous.  

 

I despise this "he/she said/did this one thing therefore....banishment".  That's a left-driven thing and I think the case of Omar is the right joining in.  That's the thing in politics, if you weaponize something for you, you better be ready for it to come back the other way eventually.

[LaBombo]

a: plenty of Jews have stated that she attacked Israel's policies, not Jews. I don't know what her real feelings are, but her words were clearly not about Jews.

 

b: She's no rising star, and I'd bet good money she's one and done. Even if she is re-elected, she's no rising star.

 

c: They did actually condemn her.....unlike the GOP and Rep. King's racist remarks, a man that keeps getting elected (as one example).

 

A) Accusing a nation of "hypnotizing the world" is not a policy. Accusing Jewish Americans of dual loyalty is not a policy. Accusing those supporting pro-Israel legislation of being "all about the Benjamins" is not a policy.

 

And it's not just antisemitism, it's a word-for-word recycling of the institutional kind used by actual Fascists to marginalize Jews in the 1930's, and it is indefensible by anyone not acting out of militant partisanship.

 

B} Sure she's not...  she's just an anonymous, everyday freshman handed a spot on an important committee despite dubious qualifications from the start, frequently the subject of pro-Dem media coverage, and already receiving fundraising assistance from AOC for her "defense".

 

C) Where are you getting your news from? Democratic Underground? Republicans unanimously approved the resolution that condemned King SPECIFICALLY, stripped him of all committee seats, and pressured him to resign. And contrary to your false assertion, there is no resolution condemning Ilhan Omar.

[LaBombo]

 

My issue is hypocrisy and consistency.  You know full well I hold both sides to that.  

 

Frankly, I think the Dems overreacted to Omar's comments.  I think she said dumb, borderline things.  She should've been scolded privately and waited for something like this when the pattern proved too large.

 

Republicans have said far, far worse and had far, far less attention and scrutiny on it.  I'm not one to tar and feather people for saying stupid things.  (Though...I grant, the left does play that game.  And on that front, they are being hypocrites.  However, the Dems in office are not typically that version of "left".  They tend to be the rational left that, for some reason, we're trying to run out of town)

 

She has a history predating the specific remarks in question. And she had already been scolded privately. Local Democrats had to sit her down and talk to her at length about anti-Semitism in 2018, for heaven's sake. So what you've heard from her since then is not insensitivity, it's not 'cultural differences', and it's not tone deafness. What you're hearing from her now is how she feels about Jews. And it's ugly.

 

And as much as I respect your efforts to use consistent judgement, the idea that Omar should get a pass because the debt of her transgressions have been (and apparently will continue to be?) prepaid by past Republican comments does a massive disservice to the Jewish constituents of her district.

[TheLeviathan]

 

She has a history predating the specific remarks in question. And she had already been scolded privately. Local Democrats had to sit her down and talk to her at length about anti-Semitism in 2018, for heaven's sake. So if there were any previous question about insensitivity and tone deafness, that excuse is long gone. What you're hearing from her now is how she feels about Jews.

 

And as much as I respect your efforts to use consistent judgement, the idea that Omar should get a pass because her transgressions have been (and apparently will continue to be?) prepaid by past Republican comments does a massive disservice to the Jewish constituents of her district.

 

Look, I think the left's views on Israel are pretty wonky but I'm not 100% sure her comments are anti-semitic.  I keep reading to hear one that jumps out and makes me cringe.  The hypnotizing comment was dumb but not sure it's at that level.

 

What should make me cringe that she's said?  Maybe I missed it.

[Mike Sixel]

 

A) Accusing a nation of "hypnotizing the world" is not a policy. Accusing Jewish Americans of dual loyalty is not a policy. Accusing those supporting pro-Israel legislation of being "all about the Benjamins" is not a policy.

 

And it's not just antisemitism, it's a word-for-word recycling of the institutional kind used by actual Fascists to marginalize Jews in the 1930's, and it is indefensible by anyone not acting out of militant partisanship.

 

B} Sure she's not...  she's just an anonymous, everyday freshman handed a spot on an important committee despite dubious qualifications from the start, frequently the subject of pro-Dem media coverage, and already receiving fundraising assistance from AOC for her "defense".

 

C) Where are you getting your news from? Democratic Underground? Republicans unanimously approved the resolution that condemned King SPECIFICALLY, stripped him of all committee seats, and pressured him to resign. And contrary to your false assertion, there is no resolution condemning Ilhan Omar.

 

I guess I missed the King thing, apologies. It happens.

 

If you don't think that resolution that just passed was done in response to her, I don't know what to say.

 

As for her words, I don't like them, but I can listen to my Jewish friends who have said these words were aimed at policy, not people. That said, I can see how others see more there, and I don't know that I disagree with them. Like I said, I don't actually know her intent here....

 

She accused a nation, not a religion. I think there is a distinction there, you don't. That's fair, but I am looking very specifically at her words. Her past, as you point out, should maybe lead me not to......

 

And, no, she pretty much killed her rising star (if there was one), with these words, and I anticipate it will only get worse for her, not better. I could be wrong about that, of course.....

[TheLeviathan]

Mike is right about that.  She is squarely in the crosshairs of the right - it's only going to get worse for her.  Mistakes or not, she is going to be targeted unfairly.

[LaBombo]

 

Look, I think the left's views on Israel are pretty wonky but I'm not 100% sure her comments are anti-semitic.  I keep reading to hear one that jumps out and makes me cringe.  The hypnotizing comment was dumb but not sure it's at that level.

 

What should make me cringe that she's said?  Maybe I missed it.

 

If you're not familiar with Nazi/Klan conspiracy theories about Jewish manipulation of banking and politics, we've gone as far as we can go on this subject. Sorry, I'm not trying to be dramatic, but we're better off shutting it down right there.

[PseudoSABR]

Israel is not some sacred cow, and we should be able to criticize what has been a right wing regime for decades without inviting antisemitism.