Article: Expansion Could Alter MLB's Landscape

[DJL44]

"Rays and A's are barely hanging on highly profitable despite bad stadium situations"

 

Fixed that for you.

 

"Indianapolis is a much larger market without a team"

 

In what world is Indianapolis a 'much larger' market than Portland or Montreal? It is smaller than both of them and considerably smaller than Montreal.

 

I think people underestimate how poorly managed the situation in Montreal was before they left. There was the MLB strike, followed by a fire sale of a contending roster. They repeatedly screwed up the marketing and then sold to Jeffery Loria so he could actively sabotage things to the point where he could relocate.

[Mike Sixel]

 

1) After 1983, they were generally near the bottom of the league in attendance.

2) Didn't the owners get the Marlins, and the league took over the team for a while? So it wasn't just one capricious ownership group.

 

They literally did not offer salary arbitration to Cliff Lee and 4-6 other good players, and let them all walk. That's when the attendance plummeted, and rightly.

 

Yes, the league ran them the year after the league voted to contract Montreal and MN, and literally had to hire a manager a few weeks before the season, because the FO had fired everyone making money. They also took all the computer equipment and most everything else to Miami, leaving the team with almost no FO, scouts, etc....

 

It wasn't the fans that betrayed the city/team....

Edited October 18, 2017 by Mike Sixel

[Squirrel]

To a point. Baseball is very popular in Central America, and there are huge cities that could support teams. I agree on travel/safety (depending on where they go), but those west coast trips are long too. I just don't see Portland/Montreal being a success. Montreal already failed once, and did so miserably. Portland isn't big enough. Indianapolis is a much larger market without a team (and I don't see one here either).

 

and yes... expansion without fixing revenue inequality will kill the sport.

One point the article made was that the lost revenue in going to 156 games would be made up in lower travel costs because of realignment. Thats why everyone is emphasizing locations as they are. It’s not just about being viable in community and financial support, but is also viable in location.

[ashbury]

They literally did not offer salary arbitration to Cliff Lee and 4-6 other good players, and let them all walk. That's when the attendance plummeted, and rightly.

Not sure what Cliff Lee has to do with 1983-97. Some highly-presentable teams were put on the field, including that phantom championship team of 1994 due to the strike. Top-half performance on the field many years, bottom-half attendance consistently. They did not have a long run of losing seasons until the late 90s. I agree we should not to judge the city once the bottom fell out with the team.

 

You and I have different ideas on what makes a good baseball town.

[nicksaviking]

How about Vancouver instead? Then you'd get your Pacific Northwest team and your Canadian team all in one package. Then you can do whatever is the biggest market lacking a team.

 

But I vote no on all of this business. I'm not against change, but I am against my team getting shafted and nothing in this proposal looks beneficial to the Twins. Is rather go the relocation route as sad as I'd feel for some of those fans.

[nicksaviking]

One point the article made was that the lost revenue in going to 156 games would be made up in travel costs with realignment. Thats why everyone is emphasizing locations as they are.

Except for the Twins who lose the game revenue and have way more travel. That's a recipe for having the lowest payroll in baseball.

[Squirrel]

Except for the Twins who lose the game revenue and have way more travel. That's a recipe for having the lowest payroll in baseball.

Exactly. That’s why I think the article is kind of ... not well thought out and why everyone is proposing their own realignment. And I even mentioned that in previous posts. I even went so far as to compare actual mileage with some to try and put the best workable solution to that.

[bizaff]

Thinking about 4 division winners and 8 wildcards.. what if it were 4 division winners and 4 wildcards.. the wild card series are 2 or 3 game series where the wild card team has to sweep a division winner to advance?

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

"Rays and A's are barely hanging on highly profitable despite bad stadium situations"

 

Fixed that for you.

 

"Indianapolis is a much larger market without a team"

 

In what world is Indianapolis a 'much larger' market than Portland or Montreal? It is smaller than both of them and considerably smaller than Montreal.

 

I think people underestimate how poorly managed the situation in Montreal was before they left. There was the MLB strike, followed by a fire sale of a contending roster. They repeatedly screwed up the marketing and then sold to Jeffery Loria so he could actively sabotage things to the point where he could relocate.

 

OK... went and looked it up.   You're right on Montreal. It's quite a bit bigger than both. Indy and Portland are very comparable for the record.

[Mike Sixel]

They didn't have an English language broadcast for several years also....

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Not sure what Cliff Lee has to do with 1983-97. Some highly-presentable teams were put on the field, including that phantom championship team of 1994 due to the strike. Top-half performance on the field many years, bottom-half attendance consistently. They did not have a long run of losing seasons until the late 90s. I agree we should not to judge the city once the bottom fell out with the team.

 

You and I have different ideas on what makes a good baseball town.

 

I wonder if Montreal is to MLB as LA is to the NFL. LA is a huge market that should have been able to support two football teams, but could not. Now you have two teams going there and they still have problems with attendance.

[cholm1976]

I think this is how I'd go. Colorado is kind of misplaced but they don't really fit anywhere. Maybe adding a team in Charlotte or Nashville instead of Portland would make more geographic sense and then Colorado could slide west.

I'd also allow teams to set their own ground rules as it regards DH / pitcher batting. Must be declared for entirety of season and then maybe required 2 years to change.

 

NORTHEAST
NY Mets
NY Yankees
Boston
Philadelphia
Montreal
Pittsburgh
Washington
Baltimore

 

GREAT LAKES
Detroit
Cleveland
Milwaukee
Minnesota
Toronto
Cincinnati
Chicago Cubs
Chicago WS

 

SOUTH
Texas
Houston
Colorado
Kansas City
Saint Louis
Atlanta
Miami
Tampa

 

WEST
Seattle
San Francisco
Oakland
LA Dodgers
LA Angels
San Diego
Arizona
Portland

[cholm1976]

 

Charlotte is booming again. As someone who has lived in DC, Cincy, Nashville, Buffalo, Twin Cities and now Charlotte i can honestly say that they could support a team. Charlotte is hungry for baseball. The banking sector is BOOMING in Charlotte and they have scores of other business now. The AAA Knights have ranked #1 in attendance since 2014 after BB&T ballpark opened downtown. The AAA Nashville Sounds also have high attendance numbers and Nashville has a vibrant growing downtown and is a central distribution center for companies in the midwest. Both cities are ripe for MLB baseball in my opinion.

 

Also, North Carolina loves baseball more than any other place I've lived or at least that was the case 15 years ago and The Triangle and Piedmont Triad are both pretty decent sized in-state metro areas within easy driving distance.

[snap4birds]

 

Baseball had about a 10 billion dollar revenue stream. Dropping 6 games would be a 3.7% drop in revenue, about 370 million. I do not think that mlb would save that much in travel costs, I doubt players will want to give up their per game income. A home and home series against a rotating team would likely be added to keep up the revenue. 

The players union would push strongly for this, even if the players existing contracts were reduced by 3.7%.  Reason being the addition of 2 teams automatically turns 25 AAAA-type players into major-leaguers, with the accompanying higher salaries.  

And I'm guessing most players would welcome the reduction in games, even if they took a slight hit in the pocketbook.

[Squirrel]

Also, North Carolina loves baseball more than any other place I've lived or at least that was the case 15 years ago and The Triangle and Piedmont Triad are both pretty decent sized in-state metro areas within easy driving distance.

I think the Carolinas (maybe even just North?) have a lot of minor league teams around. Both Charlotte and Durham have AAA teams.

[laloesch]

 

expansion won't solve the revenue problem. If anything, it makes it worse. Only way to use expansion to do this is to put another team in NY and LA, and even then, I'm not sure it solves anything.

 

Honestly, if baseball wanted to expand, I'd think there would be much better markets in central America than Portland or Montreal.

 

But central America for the most part is dirt and i mean DIRT poor.  How could any of those countries down there possibly sustain a major league team with comparative payrolls to US teams? 

 

Panama and Costa Rica have yearly average incomes of $2740.   Honduras $760 and Nicaragua less than $500 a year! 

 

If you jump over to the island of Hispaniola it doesn't get any better with Haiti at $460 and Domincan Republic is not much better. Just south of our border Mexico averages $4,400 a year.

Edited October 18, 2017 by laloesch

[nicksaviking]

They didn't have an English language broadcast for several years also....

How's the baseball temperature in Portland Mike?

 

Portland bumping Colorado for the eighth slot in the west looks to be screwing all the realignment attempts. Sorry to stereotype, but are all those young hipsters really into baseball?

[SweetOne69]

"I doubt players will want to give up their per game income."

 

The players per game income would actually increase if the number of games decreased.  Their salaries are determined by the year not by the number of games in the season.

[Shaitan]

 

But central America for the most part is dirt and i mean DIRT poor.  How could any of those countries down there possibly sustain a major league team with comparative payrolls to US teams? 

 

Panama and Costa Rica have yearly average incomes of $2740.   Honduras $760 and Nicaragua less than $500 a year! 

 

If you jump over to the island of Hispaniola it doesn't get any better with Haiti at $460 and Domincan Republic is not much better. Just south of our border Mexico averages $4,400 a year.

 

I'd love Central American expansion, but it won't happen. Canadian teams already have a harder time signing free agents because of different currency, culture, etc.

 

I don't think Central America is unrealistic though. The rich in these countries are still rich. It's everyday folk who can't afford the luxuries like MLB.

[notoriousgod71]

Bud and the boys had it right. Contraction is the better option.

 

Too many watered down teams and pitching staffs makes for mostly unwatchable baseball.

[Mike Sixel]

 

How's the baseball temperature in Portland Mike?

Portland bumping Colorado for the eighth slot in the west looks to be screwing all the realignment attempts. Sorry to stereotype, but are all those young hipsters really into baseball?

 

No chance, imo, there are enough businesses here to buy suites, nor do I think the tv market is big enough. Seattle would be bummed for sure, to lose this market, they would want to be compensated.

 

I think Vancouver, BC is actually a good idea. LOTS of money there, LOTS.

 

However, a report came out yesterday that there is a Portland money group working on this.....

 

The stadium would be tough. No one in the city likes going west to the burbs, no one in the far out burbs likes the hippy dippy city. Traffic is awful to the one suburb spot you could do (Hillsboro), and even worse in the city. Supposedly there is a site in the city. It will either be Amazon HQ2 (hahahahaha) or a baseball stadium (hahaha), or condos/apartments/park space.

 

Frankly, this city will have to ban cars in the center part of the city at some point....

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

But central America for the most part is dirt and i mean DIRT poor.  How could any of those countries down there possibly sustain a major league team with comparative payrolls to US teams? 

 

Panama and Costa Rica have yearly average incomes of $2740.   Honduras $760 and Nicaragua less than $500 a year! 

 

If you jump over to the island of Hispaniola it doesn't get any better with Haiti at $460 and Domincan Republic is not much better. Just south of our border Mexico averages $4,400 a year.

 

I agree with this, but I'm not sure median income is necessarily the best way to look at it. There are some very large cities in central America. The question is whether there is enough of a middle class to sustain baseball in one or more of them. Given just how much they love baseball there, I wouldn't throw it out either.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

How about Vancouver instead? Then you'd get your Pacific Northwest team and your Canadian team all in one package. Then you can do whatever is the biggest market lacking a team.

But I vote no on all of this business. I'm not against change, but I am against my team getting shafted and nothing in this proposal looks beneficial to the Twins. Is rather go the relocation route as sad as I'd feel for some of those fans.

I am lockstep with you *high five*

 

I think in a perfect world, a west Canada city and Havana and Puerto Rico are considered for new franchises. There are a couple of franchises that should relocate at this point (looking at you, Tampa). But maybe Nashville is a good candidate market for a new southern team as others said up thread. Don't know. But mostly I'm a No to expansion.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I think this is how I'd go. Colorado is kind of misplaced but they don't really fit anywhere. Maybe adding a team in Charlotte or Nashville instead of Portland would make more geographic sense and then Colorado could slide west.

I'd also allow teams to set their own ground rules as it regards DH / pitcher batting. Must be declared for entirety of season and then maybe required 2 years to change.

 

NORTHEAST

NY Mets

NY Yankees

Boston

Philadelphia

Montreal

Pittsburgh

Washington

Baltimore

 

GREAT LAKES

Detroit

Cleveland

Milwaukee

Minnesota

Toronto

Cincinnati

Chicago Cubs

Chicago WS

 

SOUTH

Texas

Houston

Colorado

Kansas City

Saint Louis

Atlanta

Miami

Tampa

 

WEST

Seattle

San Francisco

Oakland

LA Dodgers

LA Angels

San Diego

Arizona

Portland

I love the idea of four 8-team divisions. It harkens back to the true pennant races which I am not old enough to remember. the top team could be the winner with four wildcards per league (two one game playoffs to determine 1-4 2-3 seed second round matchups). Alas it will never happen, because $$$$$

[old nurse]

 

One point the article made was that the lost revenue in going to 156 games would be made up in lower travel costs because of realignment. Thats why everyone is emphasizing locations as they are. It’s not just about being viable in community and financial support, but is also viable in location.

84 games vs 76 games now with teams regionally close.  Losing 1 short flight between cities on a road trip and 1 shorter flight  with a division rival along with 3 nights of hotel costs is not going to make up  for the loss of revenue from full season ticket packages, suite revenue and loss from 6 games from broadcast  rights fees

[old nurse]

 

No chance, imo, there are enough businesses here to buy suites, nor do I think the tv market is big enough. Seattle would be bummed for sure, to lose this market, they would want to be compensated.

 

I think Vancouver, BC is actually a good idea. LOTS of money there, LOTS.

 

However, a report came out yesterday that there is a Portland money group working on this.....

 

The stadium would be tough. No one in the city likes going west to the burbs, no one in the far out burbs likes the hippy dippy city. Traffic is awful to the one suburb spot you could do (Hillsboro), and even worse in the city. Supposedly there is a site in the city. It will either be Amazon HQ2 (hahahahaha) or a baseball stadium (hahaha), or condos/apartments/park space.

 

Frankly, this city will have to ban cars in the center part of the city at some point....

No mention of a retractable dome as monsoon season begins in September and doesn't let up until the middle of June.

[Squirrel]

84 games vs 76 games now with teams regionally close. Losing 1 short flight between cities on a road trip and 1 shorter flight with a division rival along with 3 nights of hotel costs is not going to make up for the loss of revenue from full season ticket packages, suite revenue and loss from 6 games from broadcast rights fees

I’m not agreeing with the article merely restating it’s premise. I don’t see the savings either, particularly how the article has aligned the teams.

[laloesch]

 

I agree with this, but I'm not sure median income is necessarily the best way to look at it. There are some very large cities in central America. The question is whether there is enough of a middle class to sustain baseball in one or more of them. Given just how much they love baseball there, I wouldn't throw it out either.

 

It would certainly be worth looking into but carefully studied the numbers may not work. Then there is the safety factor that know one wants to talk about particularly El Salvador and Guatemala.

Edited October 19, 2017 by laloesch

[Mike Sixel]

 

No mention of a retractable dome as monsoon season begins in September and doesn't let up until the middle of June.

 

mostly myth. The weather here is nicer than MN, until about now. Post season would be a potential issue, but no more so than Denver.

 

though, I'd bet they would build a retractable roof, yes.

 

Also, politically, I don't see how this government puts money into a stadium with all the other stuff going on here.....so unless Phil Knight decides he cares about Portland....

[spinowner]

Central America? Absolutely no way. The only place in Latin America that has any chance whatsoever would be Mexico City, and I think the currency exchange and livability issues would make it difficult to make things work. I know I wouldn't want to play 81 games there.