International signing scandal force Brave FO resignations

[Mike Sixel]

Drafts are great for teams wanting to control freedom and wages. They suck for employees.

[drjim]

 

Drafts are great for teams wanting to control freedom and wages. They suck for employees.

 

True. But it also helps keep a little bit of competitive balance.

 

Players do seem to be a little more able to control their destination in baseball, and the restriction on wages is a little overstated for anyone who is not a top talent. The high end guys get hosed, most of the other players do just fine.

[bird]

 

I think this is a little overstated (as is the draft). The cap certainly impacts a few guys at the top end, but really doesn't make much of a difference for the vast majority of players. 

 

At least with the International signings they have the freedom to choose their team.

 

 

I guess my viewpoint for years now has been the problem isn't so much with the system as it is with those organizations and individuals cheating and conniving. I'm not sure what can be done to ameliorate the exploitation problem and the self-serving buscones other than to police the process more thoroughly and stop all the enabling behavior on the part of MLB. I think I favor tweaking the current system and then enforcing rules and dishing out severe penalties.

 

I wish I felt certain that the organizations who have been hurt by all the cheaters were in an ideal position to exact proper restitution from the cheaters.

[biggentleben]

 

I am in favor of a draft, but doubt it will happen. 

This does not come as a surprise, Latin America is another area with a lot of corruption, part of the system.  The Braves were just far worse offenders than most of the other clubs.  This will end up being at least 3 organizations and I suspect more will be found in the next year.  

 

The Braves really did nothing other teams don't do. The big issue was leaving paper trails...which is blatantly stupid.

[biggentleben]

 

I really don't know if there is an easy solution to limiting the role of trainers and how they control the flow of talent.

 

...and in the end, not much will change in Latin America until this changes. The Braves got in trouble not because they were talking with players too early and setting deals with players too young (the complaint from MLB actually leaves the Maitan signing clean - which isn't surprising). What was found by the league was that the Braves bundled a player in the 16 y/o market with a player who was not in that market in order to sign the younger player for less money. That should have made the Braves ineligible to sign anyone for more than 300K in 2016, so any guy they did sign for more than 300K in that class was set free. The Braves issue that cost them players was done through a trainer rather than through a player.

[nicksaviking]

The Braves really did nothing other teams don't do. The big issue was leaving paper trails...which is blatantly stupid.

We don't know that. I don't think MLB would be doing this to Atlanta if there was a chance they would later have to slap all 30 teams with the same penalties. The Braves transgressions had to have been perticularly egregious in comparison to other actions taking place.

[Mike Sixel]

The Braves really did nothing other teams don't do. The big issue was leaving paper trails...which is blatantly stupid.

We don't know that at all. No details have come out at all. It could have been much worse than what other teams do.

[drjim]

 

...and in the end, not much will change in Latin America until this changes. The Braves got in trouble not because they were talking with players too early and setting deals with players too young (the complaint from MLB actually leaves the Maitan signing clean - which isn't surprising). What was found by the league was that the Braves bundled a player in the 16 y/o market with a player who was not in that market in order to sign the younger player for less money. That should have made the Braves ineligible to sign anyone for more than 300K in 2016, so any guy they did sign for more than 300K in that class was set free. The Braves issue that cost them players was done through a trainer rather than through a player.

 

I don't think the bundle was for giggles or as a favor to the trainers, it was to blatantly skirt the yearly spending caps. That is why they got so hammered, it was a clear, obvious and egregious violation of the collective bargaining agreement. I don't agree that many other teams did this.

 

The early deals were not the problem.

[drjim]

 

We don't know that. I don't think MLB would be doing this to Atlanta if there was a chance they would later have to slap all 30 teams with the same penalties. The Braves transgressions had to have been perticularly egregious in comparison to other actions taking place.

 

Agree with this. The systematic skirting of spending caps does not seem like it was a common activity of other teams.

[glunn]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2745483-former-braves-gm-john-coppolella-banned-for-life-from-mlb-for-rule-violation?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

 

"Manfred ... announced 13 players the Braves signed illegally during the 2015-17 international free-agent period have been released from their contracts, making them eligible to sign with any team."

 

I hope that the Twins are all over this.

[beckmt]

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2745483-former-braves-gm-john-coppolella-banned-for-life-from-mlb-for-rule-violation?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

 

"Manfred ... announced 13 players the Braves signed illegally during the 2015-17 international free-agent period have been released from their contracts, making them eligible to sign with any team."

 

I hope that the Twins are all over this.

This is a one time chance for a talent upgrade, they are a long ways away, but would be nice to get one of the front line talents set free here.

[Mike Sixel]

Lifetime ban for giving players too much money. Hall of Fame plaque for making sure teams get more money....

[drjim]

Lifetime ban for giving players too much money. Hall of Fame plaque for making sure teams get more money....

Paying the players too much money wasn't the problem.

[Squirrel]

We don't know that at all. No details have come out at all. It could have been much worse than what other teams do.

According to a writer friend of mine it wasn’t that they were doing something no other teams were doing it was the degree to which they did it and the blatant manner in which it was done that basically forced mlb to crack down and hard. Although how hard was it really. He suggested that losing those prospects won’t hurt the Braves too much in the long run but the real message is to FO personnel with Coppollella being banned. Everyone tries to find ways to cheat to get an edge until it goes too far and it can’t be avoided anymore.

[beckmt]

 

According to a writer friend of mine it wasn’t that they were doing something no other teams were doing it was the degree to which they did it and the blatant manner in which it was done that basically forced mlb to crack down and hard. Although how hard was it really. He suggested that losing those prospects won’t hurt the Braves too much in the long run but the real message is to FO personnel with Coppollella being banned. Everyone tries to find ways to cheat to get an edge until it goes too far and it can’t be avoided anymore.

Of those 13 prospects odds are that no more than 1 - 3 become major league ballplayers, so you are correct.  Nice point to bring up.  

The real point is that this will benefit the teams that played by the rules (like I suspect the Twins did). Leveling the playing field is not a bad thing.

[drjim]

According to a writer friend of mine it wasn’t that they were doing something no other teams were doing it was the degree to which they did it and the blatant manner in which it was done that basically forced mlb to crack down and hard. Although how hard was it really. He suggested that losing those prospects won’t hurt the Braves too much in the long run but the real message is to FO personnel with Coppollella being banned. Everyone tries to find ways to cheat to get an edge until it goes too far and it can’t be avoided anymore.

From reading the report, it seems mlb was appropriately surgical in stripping prospects. They declared free agents the prospects they acquired through manipulating the spending caps (and the one draft pick extra benefits) and handcuffed the org for a couple years going forward.

 

Don't know how they could justify stripping away other legitimately acquired prospects.

[Squirrel]

From reading the report, it seems mlb was appropriately surgical in stripping prospects. They declared free agents the prospects they acquired through manipulating the spending caps (and the one draft pick extra benefits) and handcuffed the org for a couple years going forward.

Don't know how they could justify stripping away other legitimately acquired prospects.

I never said they weren’t appropriate, but that in the long run, it isn’t going to hurt the Braves as badly as it could another team given the Braves’ system, that they could absorb the blow a little better. But it is a big message to FOs nonetheless, especially with the banning of Coppellella. My conversation with this friend then segued into Joe Morgan’s statements (on steroids and the HoF) into a more general conversation of cheating and how in some way it’s always prevelant, that some are always looking for that ‘edge’ and then that edge pushes the line until it becomes a wide-spread problem when action is needed. What the Braves did was to push that line too far and MLB was, in some ways, forced to respond to activities that all teams were doing on some level.

[Squirrel]

Of those 13 prospects odds are that no more than 1 - 3 become major league ballplayers, so you are correct. Nice point to bring up.

The real point is that this will benefit the teams that played by the rules (like I suspect the Twins did). Leveling the playing field is not a bad thing.

Yes, exactly. But to be clear, it was more my writer firend’s point. As I mentioned in my most recent post, this friend and I had quite the baseball conversation yesterday, and our conversation eventually segued into the overall of cheating, that some are always looking for that edge and when it starts pushing the line, action is taken. And that’s what this is. It wasn’t, as Ben pointed out many posts ago, that the Braves weren’t doing anything that others weren’t, just that they pushed it too far and too blatantly.

[biggentleben]

 

We don't know that. I don't think MLB would be doing this to Atlanta if there was a chance they would later have to slap all 30 teams with the same penalties. The Braves transgressions had to have been perticularly egregious in comparison to other actions taking place.

 

We do know that. It was stated by sources in Passan's article about the punishment. It's why many are being investigated now. It's why the Red Sox were punished a couple years ago. Bundling is a common practice to skirt signing rules, and when the Braves were doing it, it was also a way to grease a player from Cuba into the organization, and that's exactly what happened with the Braves. If you take a look at the number of $1M or so Cubans that fail badly and wonder how that could be...look at who they share a trainer/agent with, and I'll almost guarantee the biggest Cuban name that guy represents is also on that team. The Dodgers are well-known for this. Paper trails are THE thing that screwed the Braves here.

[biggentleben]

 

From reading the report, it seems mlb was appropriately surgical in stripping prospects. They declared free agents the prospects they acquired through manipulating the spending caps (and the one draft pick extra benefits) and handcuffed the org for a couple years going forward.

Don't know how they could justify stripping away other legitimately acquired prospects.

 

It was easy. The Braves shouldn't have had more than $300K to spend on any prospect for the 2016-2017 IFA market. Every prospect who received even a dollar more than that was released (Antonio Sucre is the one that showed just how close to that they went as he received $305K). What was interesting is that the only guys they found who were actually paid more than what was listed were from the 2017 class (and part of the removed group).

[biggentleben]

 

Of those 13 prospects odds are that no more than 1 - 3 become major league ballplayers, so you are correct.  Nice point to bring up.  

The real point is that this will benefit the teams that played by the rules (like I suspect the Twins did). Leveling the playing field is not a bad thing.

 

Jim Callis did mention that of the 13 (technically 14 if you count the 14 y/o they had an agreement with as there were 12 signed and 2 unsigned named players), nearly all would make most teams' top 30s upon signing, so these are big talent guys for sure, but they're also not sure bets by any means, of course.

[biggentleben]

 

I never said they weren’t appropriate, but that in the long run, it isn’t going to hurt the Braves as badly as it could another team given the Braves’ system, that they could absorb the blow a little better. But it is a big message to FOs nonetheless, especially with the banning of Coppellella. My conversation with this friend then segued into Joe Morgan’s statements (on steroids and the HoF) into a more general conversation of cheating and how in some way it’s always prevelant, that some are always looking for that ‘edge’ and then that edge pushes the line until it becomes a wide-spread problem when action is needed. What the Braves did was to push that line too far and MLB was, in some ways, forced to respond to activities that all teams were doing on some level.

 

I can't say more, but Coppy's ban has to do with stuff that no one else is doing in the game, and it's a darned good thing. How he can go home and look his children in the eye is beyond me.

 

Beyond that, Callis had a great chat with a few other media folks this week where he mentioned that the Braves went from "clear #1" to #2 in his system rankings, though he's still not sure they've not got a better system than the White Sox, who he put #1. Losing 12 signed players that were all quite highly thought of only dropped them to #2 in all of baseball, so that farm system is able to handle it.

[beckmt]

 

Jim Callis did mention that of the 13 (technically 14 if you count the 14 y/o they had an agreement with as there were 12 signed and 2 unsigned named players), nearly all would make most teams' top 30s upon signing, so these are big talent guys for sure, but they're also not sure bets by any means, of course.

Interesting point.  Would be interested in your take as far as top 30 goes, that would depend on the system, for the Brave would it be like 5 out 13 in the top 30 vs the Twins where 8-9 would make the top 30 vs Detroit where all 13 would make the top 30.  How would you rank this.

[biggentleben]

 

Interesting point.  Would be interested in your take as far as top 30 goes, that would depend on the system, for the Brave would it be like 5 out 13 in the top 30 vs the Twins where 8-9 would make the top 30 vs Detroit where all 13 would make the top 30.  How would you rank this.

 

It definitely depends on the system. I didn't rank Bae as he wasn't officially signed, but when I did my top 100 (turned into a top 105 due to computer glitches, but anyway...) for the Braves system, most of them did rank well (Maitan 5, Severino 22, Gutierrez 27a, Del Rosario 28, Pena 39, Contreras 54, Soto 58, Negret 71, Sucre 93). The one that was a 2016 signee that didn't rank in the top 100 that was removed was Zuniga, and that's mainly due to 1) the Braves pitching depth, and 2) early struggles to put stuff to production, but he was definitely in consideration. However, with Zuniga, I did not mention him because I'd heard rumblings early on that there was some fishy stuff with his signing. It turns out that he is the one of the bunch that did get paid more than was reported. I did not rank the 2017 players yet, but both are excellent prospects with upside. The 2017 players would likely take a team like the Cubs or Diamondbacks with terrible depth in their system to rank (the Tigers have moved to a mid-tier system overall, and especially in depth). The first 7 would likely be considered for many systems in the early part of their top 30, probably only the top 5-6 systems wouldn't have a spot for at least 6 in their top 30.

[nicksaviking]

We do know that. It was stated by sources in Passan's article about the punishment. It's why many are being investigated now. It's why the Red Sox were punished a couple years ago. Bundling is a common practice to skirt signing rules, and when the Braves were doing it, it was also a way to grease a player from Cuba into the organization, and that's exactly what happened with the Braves. If you take a look at the number of $1M or so Cubans that fail badly and wonder how that could be...look at who they share a trainer/agent with, and I'll almost guarantee the biggest Cuban name that guy represents is also on that team. The Dodgers are well-known for this. Paper trails are THE thing that screwed the Braves here.

  

I can't say more, but Coppy's ban has to do with stuff that no one else is doing in the game, and it's a darned good thing. How he can go home and look his children in the eye is beyond me.

 

So the Braves were just doing what every other team was doing but Coppolella's actions were unparalleled? Sorry, I know they're your favorite team but Coppolella's sins are the Braves' sins, no one's going to divorce the repercussions just because the team fired him.

 

Also, in regards to bundling, no, every team was not doing it and seeing as the Red Sox got slammed for this offense last year and the Braves still went ahead and flaunted the rules, yes, they should have gotten a harsher penalty. The Red Sox got penalized 7/1/16 the Braves signed Maiten 7/2/16, others probably later.

[beckmt]

 

It definitely depends on the system. I didn't rank Bae as he wasn't officially signed, but when I did my top 100 (turned into a top 105 due to computer glitches, but anyway...) for the Braves system, most of them did rank well (Maitan 5, Severino 22, Gutierrez 27a, Del Rosario 28, Pena 39, Contreras 54, Soto 58, Negret 71, Sucre 93). The one that was a 2016 signee that didn't rank in the top 100 that was removed was Zuniga, and that's mainly due to 1) the Braves pitching depth, and 2) early struggles to put stuff to production, but he was definitely in consideration. However, with Zuniga, I did not mention him because I'd heard rumblings early on that there was some fishy stuff with his signing. It turns out that he is the one of the bunch that did get paid more than was reported. I did not rank the 2017 players yet, but both are excellent prospects with upside. The 2017 players would likely take a team like the Cubs or Diamondbacks with terrible depth in their system to rank (the Tigers have moved to a mid-tier system overall, and especially in depth). The first 7 would likely be considered for many systems in the early part of their top 30, probably only the top 5-6 systems wouldn't have a spot for at least 6 in their top 30.

Interesting comparison.  Twins seem not to have a lot of top prospects, but a great deal of depth.  A few more elite prospects could not hurt. 

[beckmt]

Unless the Twins think they have a real chance at the Japanese pitcher, I feel they should move on some of the prospects.  Twins being a midmarket team, needs to get the farm system to keep pumping out good prospects, so adding more prospects further away will certainly help.

[biggentleben]

 

  
So the Braves were just doing what every other team was doing but Coppolella's actions were unparalleled? Sorry, I know they're your favorite team but Coppolella's sins are the Braves' sins, no one's going to divorce the repercussions just because the team fired him.

Also, in regards to bundling, no, every team was not doing it and seeing as the Red Sox got slammed for this offense last year and the Braves still went ahead and flaunted the rules, yes, they should have gotten a harsher penalty. The Red Sox got penalized 7/1/16 the Braves signed Maiten 7/2/16, others probably later.

 

Bundling has been going on since the new spending caps. Once again, MLB has been clear that the Maitan signing was clean. There was not bundling involved with the 2016 class, and the one contract that has been brought forward from that class as being more than announced was Zuniga. The bundling happened with the 2015 class, which would have made the 2016 class the Braves' first year under 300K penalty without the bundling.

 

Bundling still goes on today. You can deny that all you want, but it's quite prevalent in the marketplace, and that's why the league is using the new powers they have to punish in the new CBA to enact punishments on bundling.

 

Coppy's stuff I'm referring to has nothing to do with bundling or signing early. They are things that he personally did, not even things that Blakely did as the Latin American director. And it wouldn't involve the Braves outside of skimming money from the Braves in order to conduct the activities.

[AZTwin]

Bundling has been going on since the new spending caps. Once again, MLB has been clear that the Maitan signing was clean. There was not bundling involved with the 2016 class, and the one contract that has been brought forward from that class as being more than announced was Zuniga. The bundling happened with the 2015 class, which would have made the 2016 class the Braves' first year under 300K penalty without the bundling.

 

Bundling still goes on today. You can deny that all you want, but it's quite prevalent in the marketplace, and that's why the league is using the new powers they have to punish in the new CBA to enact punishments on bundling.

 

Coppy's stuff I'm referring to has nothing to do with bundling or signing early. They are things that he personally did, not even things that Blakely did as the Latin American director. And it wouldn't involve the Braves outside of skimming money from the Braves in order to conduct the activities.

At first I thought you were referring to Rick Pitino like activities. Now I’m thinking you mean he messed with kids himself.

[biggentleben]

 

Interesting comparison.  Twins seem not to have a lot of top prospects, but a great deal of depth.  A few more elite prospects could not hurt. 

 

That's exactly where I'm at with the Twins. By next summer, the Twins could have a half dozen top 100 guys, but right now, there's not really a top 20 guy in the system, but there are 4-5 guys with legit arguments on the top 100. The big thing is when you sit down to do a top 20, 30, 50, 100 list of the Twins that you actually run into guys with legit major league skills a long way down the line, especially among relievers and middle infielders.

 

With the Twins, Maitan would likely be in the mix of the fun people are having figuring out who is the true #1 is between Lewis and Gordon. He'd likely make a 3-headed monster for that top spot. Severino would probably rank behind Gonsalves and Romero, but not really anyone else in the system, but the interesting thing is that in the Twins system, a guy like Soto may not rank as high due to depth in the system among shortstops. Del Rosario, on the other hand, could rank much higher as he's essentially the flip side of a Graterol coin, with less velo, but more feel for pitches, but both raw in their feel for approach on the mound and consistency in their performance being things that a typical young pitcher needs to grow through.