Sano

[biggentleben]

 

A lot of tears were shed over not using any direct quotes from Twins management in the last Strib.  Well, here they are, albeit from a year ago.  Maybe at some point we can get past the denial that this is a big-time issue for the organization, and get past the notion that players' physical condition is a taboo topic.  I think LaVelle's column is interesting, even more so now that we have some perspective since it was written.  Could pretty much the exact same column be written again today, a year later?

 

The closer we get to the Twins having a chance of making the playoffs, the more it bothers me that they'll likely be without their most dangerous hitter.  Especially as the Twins limp out of New York, having scored 6 runs in 3 games against their likely playoff opponent.  

 

You obviously mistook my comment about direct quotes. Sano was quoted throughout the offseason about his workouts, put in a very strong offseason of work (which was documented on a few different IG and Twitter spots), and reported to camp quite fat-trim, albeit who knows what the exact weight number was. He had worked throughout the offseason on his flexibility and agility as well as his defense to improve his defensive play this season. He was quoted throughout the offseason, spring, and early season locally and nationally on his weight. The topic was something he was very open about and very willing to discuss, yet there wasn't a single direct quote about the concerns the front office was having AT THAT MOMENT for Souhan's original article of issue. That was where I was making plenty of noise about Sano quotes needing to be in that article. Others asking for quotes, I'm not sure, but I can certainly tell you that I was more than aware of this piece from LENIII as one of the numerous articles done from the point he ended 2016 injured and the point of Souhan's article where Sano was directly quoted about his own weight, often even giving a number.

[Otto von Ballpark]

He lost 1 year due to a throwing injury and has yet to play more than 116 games in a season.

144 games played in 2015 (despite the AA season starting a few days late, and Sano had 2 all-star breaks too). 2012-2013 were full seasons as well.

 

Outside the TJ surgery, 2016-2017 have been the first seasons where Sano has missed time / hit the DL. Could be the start of a bad trend, but it's not really a long history at this point.

[Major League Ready]

 

yeah, I'm so tired of people implying that he's out of shape, or lazy, or whatever and using only his weight to justify it. He's built like a football player, and all the pictures posted of him this spring certainly say that his weight "issues" aren't due to him consuming too many Twinkies.

 

As for him DHing for this year (if he returns), that's fine. For his career, not yet.

 

I just hope he can make it back for the playoffs. Sano at DH would be a pretty substantial upgrade to an already good lineup.

 

Let's be careful not to generalize all of the comments.  Many, including myself, believe there are two simple constructs in play.  One, he was full-grown 4 years ago when he was considerably lighter.  It's not as if he has 7% body fat.  He could certainly shed 20-30lbs.  What type of effort is required for Sano, none of us knows.  It varies considerably.

 

Two, it would be advantageous to his performance  and health if he were 25 lbs lighter.

 

The dual standard is interesting.  We expect the organization to do EVERYTHING possible to win.  Is this not the general expectation.  Then, when someone expects an athlete to manage the weight it's an unfair expectation.  Is the expectation of managing one's diet sufficient to maintain a slightly lower playing weight that demanding?

[biggentleben]

 

144 games played in 2015 (despite the AA season starting a few days late, and Sano had 2 all-star breaks too). 2012-2013 were full seasons as well.

Outside the TJ surgery, 2016-2017 have been the first seasons where Sano has missed time / hit the DL. Could be the start of a bad trend, but it's not really a long history at this point.

 

And this season, he hadn't missed any real major time until August when he was plunked on the hand and missed 3 games. Otherwise, it was 2 games or 1 game at a time that he'd be out, which is pretty routine rest that all the guys in the lineup got.

[biggentleben]

 

Let's be careful not to generalize all of the comments.  Many, including myself, believe there are two simple constructs in play.  One, he was full-grown 4 years ago when he was considerably lighter.  It's not as if he has 7% body fat.  He could certainly shed 20-30lbs.  What type of effort is required for Sano, none of us knows.  It varies considerably.

 

Two, it would be advantageous to his performance  and health if he were 25 lbs lighter.

 

The dual standard is interesting.  We expect the organization to do EVERYTHING possible to win.  Is this not the general expectation.  Then, when someone expects an athlete to manage the weight it's an unfair expectation.  Is the expectation of managing one's diet sufficient to maintain a slightly lower playing weight that demanding?

 

I would wager visually that Sano was in the 10-12% range max this spring. For a guy with significant muscle, that's about as lean as you want to get to protect yourself. He was also reported in the 260 range in spring. Losing 25 pounds off of that 260 would put him at a higher risk for injury at 235 pounds of basically pure muscle on his frame. Even if he was up some, he wasn't adding in areas of fat retention - more areas of muscle retention, which says he may have still been gaining muscle. 

[Darius]

I read where "...his timing will be off" or something like that. Or was it? "We can't waste ABs"... . Or, is it Escobar is providing lots of offense and defense (like more that Sano) and there is no need to jeopardize that while the team is in a battle for a playoff position? I think I saw a statistic showing Escobar with 7 HRs (so far) in September and was one of the HR hitters this month. Perhaps Molitor doesn't want to risk success just to put a "rusty" Sano back in the line-up where he might screw things up?

Ok, I can buy the Escobar is more valuable right now at 3rd bit, but you're telling me that Vargas, etc, are providing more as a DH, or late inning PH? It doesn't add up. I'll take a "rusty" Sano at the dish in ninth down by 1 over Vargas 10 out of 10 times.

[Darius]

I still don't understand how he wouldn't be effective as a DH, and how that would cause him to miss time next year.

 

David Ortiz and Jim Thome ran slower than most players walk. He's on that level in terms of ability to hit the ball for power, or draw a walk. So, a "clogging the bases" narrative doesn't add up to me.

 

If the injury is significant enough that you're worried about him going into next year, where was this diagnosis weeks ago? If it's just a pain tolerance thing (aka, no real structural concern), then what's the deal?

 

I recall Molitor at some point referencing "convincing HIM he can go," didn't mention convincing medical staff. It sounds, by all accounts, that he has no real desire to get back and help this team immediately at less than 100%, which raises an eyebrow.

 

I agree, there is something strange going on here. Veiled disciplinary action? Concealing a more concerning injury issue? At odds with Molitor/FO?

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Let's be careful not to generalize all of the comments.  Many, including myself, believe there are two simple constructs in play.  One, he was full-grown 4 years ago when he was considerably lighter.  It's not as if he has 7% body fat.  He could certainly shed 20-30lbs.  What type of effort is required for Sano, none of us knows.  It varies considerably.

 

Two, it would be advantageous to his performance  and health if he were 25 lbs lighter.

 

The dual standard is interesting.  We expect the organization to do EVERYTHING possible to win.  Is this not the general expectation.  Then, when someone expects an athlete to manage the weight it's an unfair expectation.  Is the expectation of managing one's diet sufficient to maintain a slightly lower playing weight that demanding?

 

One is just wrong. He's 22. His height may have topped out at 18, but that is not fully grown. People still fill out well into their mid-twenties, and that is normal.

 

Two may or may not be true. Truthfully, that depends on his bone structure. If he has large enough bones (and strong enough for that matter), it's not an issue. It certainly could be possible that his stress reaction is due to weight on that shin. It could just be a stress reaction too. They happen. No one is saying that he should not manage his weight, but what some of us are saying is that the number on the scale is not proof one way or another as to whether or not he's doing it. There should be no question in today's society that some are better at it than others. There's a lot of things in play other than his work ethic.

[Otto von Ballpark]

One is just wrong. He's 22. His height may have topped out at 18, but that is not fully grown. People still fill out well into their mid-twenties, and that is normal.

 

 

FYI, Sano is 24 now. (He debuted at 22, two years ago.)

[Mike Sixel]

"other than the time he had surgery for an injury, and the injury this year, he hasn't been injured"......seems like an odd argument. Other than the 999 times I struck out, I was a pretty good hitter....

 

I have no idea what the Twins or Sano think. Me? I'm a bit worried about his healthiness. Not a lot worried, but a bit.

[Otto von Ballpark]

"other than the time he had surgery for an injury, and the injury this year, he hasn't been injured"......seems like an odd argument. Other than the 999 times I struck out, I was a pretty good hitter....

 

Is this directed at me? I just thought "his career high in games played is just 116" was rather misleading, and not particularly meaningful at this point of his young career.

 

He has 6 full pro seasons, and he's missed time in 3 of them. That includes his TJ surgery season. Not a perfect record, but not terrible at this point either.

[Major League Ready]

 

I would wager visually that Sano was in the 10-12% range max this spring. For a guy with significant muscle, that's about as lean as you want to get to protect yourself. He was also reported in the 260 range in spring. Losing 25 pounds off of that 260 would put him at a higher risk for injury at 235 pounds of basically pure muscle on his frame. Even if he was up some, he wasn't adding in areas of fat retention - more areas of muscle retention, which says he may have still been gaining muscle. 

 

I don't understand why you are referring to his weight when he reported.  He reportedly weighs 280-285.  If he were to lose 25 pounds would put him in the 260 you suggest he weighed in training camp.   Anything below 260 would be a great.

 

He is 24 1/4 years old and he has put on at least 40-50lbs since he reached the age when men stop growing..  If he has built that much muscle, something is horribly wrong with type of training he is doing.  He had more than enough power when he was 20 so it would make no sense to build that kind of bulk.

 

[Shane Wahl]

Just have the guy rest for the playoffs.

[yarnivek1972]

Is this directed at me? I just thought "his career high in games played is just 116" was rather misleading, and not particularly meaningful at this point of his young career.

 

He has 6 full pro seasons, and he's missed time in 3 of them. That includes his TJ surgery season. Not a perfect record, but not terrible at this point either.

That's half of his pro seasons. I would consider that a very high amount for a guy that isn't a pitcher.

[Kwak]

 

Ok, I can buy the Escobar is more valuable right now at 3rd bit, but you're telling me that Vargas, etc, are providing more as a DH, or late inning PH? It doesn't add up. I'll take a "rusty" Sano at the dish in ninth down by 1 over Vargas 10 out of 10 times.

Grossman would be the DH not Vargas.

[Otto von Ballpark]

That's half of his pro seasons. I would consider that a very high amount for a guy that isn't a pitcher.

The threshold there is missing ANY time in those seasons, not necessarily whole seasons. I would guess the average health player would probably hit the DL 3 times in 6 seasons, no? Not an iron man, but I wouldn't call that a "very high" occurrence.

[drjim]

Another issue with Sano, outside of injury risk, is that he clearly gained weight throughout the season. That is not a positive trend.

 

I realize the numbers he put up at the beginning of the season were not sustainable, but he had a pretty decent drop off as the season went on and then down with the injury.

[Squirrel]

I'm actually more concerned that his injury and longer recovery have nothing to do with his weight.

[Jerr]

 

I'm actually more concerned that his injury and longer recovery have nothing to do with his weight.

Still, his weight does weigh into recovery time and stress on his leg.

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

I'm actually more concerned that his injury and longer recovery have nothing to do with his weight.

THAAAANK YOUUU.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Another issue with Sano, outside of injury risk, is that he clearly gained weight throughout the season. That is not a positive trend.

Another reason to avoid DHing Sano. 

[DaveW]

None of this is surprising, I remember at the time when he got injured many pointed out that it was likely a season ender. Of course the Twins have a terrible recent history of actually diagnosing injuries, so there was hope he would be back.

[Mr. Brooks]

None of this is surprising, I remember at the time when he got injured many pointed out that it was likely a season ender. Of course the Twins have a terrible recent history of actually diagnosing injuries, so there was hope he would be back.

I don't remember anyone saying that at the time he got injured.

Can you give me one example?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

None of this is surprising, I remember at the time when he got injured many pointed out that it was likely a season ender. Of course the Twins have a terrible recent history of actually diagnosing injuries, so there was hope he would be back.

Brock had a post recently about how we are always missing key players for postseasons -- some of this is bad luck, but I wonder if the Twins / training staff deserve a portion of blame?  Morneau's 2010 concussion -- nothing we could do about that, really.  But his 2009 back problems?  Maybe that could have been managed better?  Remember Mauer actually returned not long after his 2004 knee injury, and hit great, but then went on the shelf again.  Maybe that could have been managed better?  And now Sano.  (Some blame could be on players in these cases, as some are doing for Sano now, but ultimately the team has to manage these assets too.)  Looking back, I don't know if we pushed Liriano excessively in 2006, he wasn't running up high pitch counts nor was he near an innings limit yet.  Radke was maybe managed poorly that year, should we have gotten him rested earlier?

 

Some of that extends too to team construction -- maybe if the 2009 team was built a bit better, we wouldn't have been chasing the Tigers so desperately at the end and we could have rested Morneau better, for example?  Same for the summer of 2006.  Just spitballing here, not necessarily assigning blame...

 

I am curious what our rate of injuries impacting postseason play is like, compared to that of other teams.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

FYI, Sano is 24 now. (He debuted at 22, two years ago.)

 

Fair point on his age. I wasn't paying that close attention.

 

That, however, doesn't really change my point. He wasn't "done growing" 4 years ago. He's probably not done growing, so to speak, at age 24.

[RaymondLuxuryYacht]

I am confused by the narrative - but not the one of the Twins

[DaveW]

 

Brock had a post recently about how we are always missing key players for postseasons -- some of this is bad luck, but I wonder if the Twins / training staff deserve a portion of blame?  Morneau's 2010 concussion -- nothing we could do about that, really.  But his 2009 back problems?  Maybe that could have been managed better?  Remember Mauer actually returned not long after his 2004 knee injury, and hit great, but then went on the shelf again.  Maybe that could have been managed better?  And now Sano.  (Some blame could be on players in these cases, as some are doing for Sano now, but ultimately the team has to manage these assets too.)  Looking back, I don't know if we pushed Liriano excessively in 2006, he wasn't running up high pitch counts nor was he near an innings limit yet.  Radke was maybe managed poorly that year, should we have gotten him rested earlier?

 

Some of that extends too to team construction -- maybe if the 2009 team was built a bit better, we wouldn't have been chasing the Tigers so desperately at the end and we could have rested Morneau better, for example?  Same for the summer of 2006.  Just spitballing here, not necessarily assigning blame...

 

I am curious what our rate of injuries impacting postseason play is like, compared to that of other teams.

Injuries happen, no doubt. I meant more along the lines of the Twins org being un able to accurately diagnose and then let the team/fans etc know realistically when they will be back.

[DaveW]

 

I don't remember anyone saying that at the time he got injured.
Can you give me one example?

Gleeman or someone. The injury itself has sidelined guys for months/seasons at a time.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Injuries happen, no doubt. I meant more along the lines of the Twins org being un able to accurately diagnose and then let the team/fans etc know realistically when they will be back.

Yup, got it.  Sorry, wasn't really questioning you, more or less just thinking inspired by your post!

[Richie the Rally Goat]

 

I'm a little confused about the team's narrative on Sano's injury, particularly Molitor's.  

 

First there were questions of his conditioning, which ignored the fact that he has always been a giant for his age. He clearly works out, and works out a lot.

 

Then, every few days, Molitor would come out with a statement with a surprise that Sano wasn't ready yet.

 

The original injury report always said that Sano was expected to be back at the end of September. If the team put this on the injury report, why did they play this game of acting surprised that he wasn't ready every few days?

 

The team updated the injury report yesterday, stating that he is not expected back until the playoffs, if not next year. That's fine, but that's only a couple of days different from "the end of September."

 

I don't recall a timetable on the original injury report, but a quick google search indicates via reputable medical type sources that 60 days is the normal healing time period for stress reactions and stress fractures, but once a stress reaction heals, recovery time to full speed is much faster. I too am baffled as to why the team has indicated he'd be back in anything significantly less than 60 days.

 

I agree that his bat is needed badly, however I don't  agree he's only a DH. Sure this year just get him as many at-bats as you can while minimizing the stress on his legs, but next year get him back in the hot corner, or at the very least first base,preferably 3rd, he's proven to be serviceable there.