Article: TOR 4, MIN 3: Pressley Fails To Pounce, Is Victim Of A Bad Bounce

[drjim]

Appealing to the team's record as proof he handles the pen well? I think there is still plenty of room for doubt regardless. That goes for pretty much any manager really.

I don't think he's perfect or above criticism. But I'm quite skeptical a different manager would be much better and there would be plenty of opportunity to be worse. Every manager in the history of ever has been criticized by the fan base for the way the handle the bullpen.

 

I also don't especially care if they keep Molitor. My bias is always that the front office really screwed up their bullpen construction this year and it directly leads to situations like last night. I'm not sure any manager would, over the course of the season, handle this much better. That's why I cited his record. I'm personally impressed!

[Aaron Cross]

Molitor simply has to have a better feel for the game than to throw Colon out there for the 7th. The 6th should have given him all the sense he needed to make that call, it's inexplicable that he didn't. Colon did his job, it was in the best interests of the team for the bullpen to take over and Mollie missed that call.

 

Piss poor.

And it's not the only time Molitor has done it this year. Which is why he deserves to unemployed with Mientkiewicz.

 

Most of the time I'm in favor of pushing the starter a little bit. Not Colon. When he loses it, he loses it fast. Almost abruptly. Everyone saw it except Molitor.

[SwainZag]

 

To be clear, I understand and appreciate the opinions of starting someone else for the 7th. I can't say I disagree. But I still don't find fault with sending Colon to start the 7th considering a few of the relievers were not available.

My problem is he should been pulled after the walk. That was the signal to make a move.

 

 I agree 100%.  He had thrown less than 80 pitches coming into the 7th inning, I don't have a problem with him going out there to start the inning.

[drjim]

I do appreciate how back to back posts can analyze the same decision and range from "more proof Molitor should be fired" to "I agree with the move".

[Dantes929]

 

I don't think he's perfect or above criticism. But I'm quite skeptical a different manager would be much better and there would be plenty of opportunity to be worse. Every manager in the history of ever has been criticized by the fan base for the way the handle the bullpen.

I also don't especially care if they keep Molitor. My bias is always that the front office really screwed up their bullpen construction this year and it directly leads to situations like last night. I'm not sure any manager would, over the course of the season, handle this much better. That's why I cited his record. I'm personally impressed!

It wasn't just the walk.  It was a 4 pitch walk.   I have no big problem with Molitor.   He does stuff I don't love but it works sometimes.  .  He mostly uses his good guys when a win is within reach and his worse guys when games are trending bad.   I do think this is the reason the record is better than the runs for and against says it should be.    As far as having a feel for a bullpen or when and how to replace starters it is very simple.   1.  If a pitcher is going well and gives up a walk and or a hit and the manager replaces the pitcher and the reliever fails, then the manager made a bad choice.   2.  Pitcher is going well and gives up a walk and or a hit and the manager leaves him in and he gives up a runs, then the manager made a bad choice.   3.  Same as one but the reliever succeeds, manager gets no credit.   4.  Same as 2 but the starter succeeds, manager gets no credit.

Go to any web page of any team that has lost close and you will almost certainly find fans panning the manager.     Gardenhire was voted top 2 manager of the year 6 times and was criticized nightly for his use of the bull pen.   This is the guy considered one of the top 2 out of 15 6 times!     If you want a manager that has a great feel for when to replace guys and when to leave guys in so that fans later say stuff like, "yep, even though we lost because he left the starter in and the starter gave up runs, it was the right move"   you will find him in the unicorn section.    

What really amuses me is that if a guy has thrown 85 pitches and gives up a hit and or a walk and the manager goes out to talk to him and the pitcher says he is feeling good and the catcher says he is throwing well the manager leave him in.    If the next pitch is a hit then the manager lifts the pitcher.    Like he fine before the one pitch but not after.    Maybe it was a good pitch and the batter got lucky or made a great swing..   

[h2oface]

Hey.... I can't stand Colon getting starts at all! I was screaming for his exit after 5, before he was left in to give up the second solo homer. When it was 3-1. You are pressing your luck to even start him. If you get 5 and have a 2 run lead, it is a total no brainer to get him the hell out of there.

 

Wins are really up to the offense with this team and their pitching. The goal should be to score 5, and hope.

Edited September 16, 2017 by h2oface

[Brandon Warne]

 

This is the problem with having the 40 year old Bartolo Colon. He always looks cooked. Nearly imposible for Molitor to have any idea when to swap this guy out for a fresh arm. Although maybe a four pitch walk is a sign. It's also hard for the coaches to engage him in the dugout. Who knows with this guy.

 

He gave up four batted balls over 90 mph in the fifth inning. The sixth was almost pushing it too far.

[mikelink45]

 

Falvine want to bring in their own guys. Can't fault them for that.

Yes I can.  When someone is doing well there is no reason for pulling the rug out.  

[mikelink45]

I am not a Colon fan.  It might be good promotions and he might be a great guy, but his stuff is mediocre and we are justifying poor performances because he is likable.give me a snarly jerk who can pitch 7 really quality innings.  

 

Pressley is a tease - great stuff, poor results.  A few innings of good stuff, but don't let him come in with a runner on base.  

[USAFChief]

 

It wasn't just the walk.  It was a 4 pitch walk.   I have no big problem with Molitor.   He does stuff I don't love but it works sometimes.  .  He mostly uses his good guys when a win is within reach and his worse guys when games are trending bad.   I do think this is the reason the record is better than the runs for and against says it should be.    As far as having a feel for a bullpen or when and how to replace starters it is very simple.   1.  If a pitcher is going well and gives up a walk and or a hit and the manager replaces the pitcher and the reliever fails, then the manager made a bad choice.   2.  Pitcher is going well and gives up a walk and or a hit and the manager leaves him in and he gives up a runs, then the manager made a bad choice.   3.  Same as one but the reliever succeeds, manager gets no credit.   4.  Same as 2 but the starter succeeds, manager gets no credit.

Go to any web page of any team that has lost close and you will almost certainly find fans panning the manager.     Gardenhire was voted top 2 manager of the year 6 times and was criticized nightly for his use of the bull pen.   This is the guy considered one of the top 2 out of 15 6 times!     If you want a manager that has a great feel for when to replace guys and when to leave guys in so that fans later say stuff like, "yep, even though we lost because he left the starter in and the starter gave up runs, it was the right move"   you will find him in the unicorn section.    

What really amuses me is that if a guy has thrown 85 pitches and gives up a hit and or a walk and the manager goes out to talk to him and the pitcher says he is feeling good and the catcher says he is throwing well the manager leave him in.    If the next pitch is a hit then the manager lifts the pitcher.    Like he fine before the one pitch but not after.    Maybe it was a good pitch and the batter got lucky or made a great swing..   

We're not talking abstract here.  "Fans always complain."  

 

We're talking about a specific game, and a specific pitcher.   Colon lives on a razor's edge when he's throwing well.  He was long past that point.  I don't know the exact odds of him getting through the 7th, but they were small.  Very small.  

 

 Molitor had gotten 6 innings, when he really should have only gotten 5.  Take that to the bank, and get your bullpen into the game, while you still have the lead.

 

[Dantes929]

 

We're not talking abstract here.  "Fans always complain."  

 

We're talking about a specific game, and a specific pitcher.   Colon lives on a razor's edge when he's throwing well.  He was long past that point.  I don't know the exact odds of him getting through the 7th, but they were small.  Very small.  

 

 Molitor had gotten 6 innings, when he really should have only gotten 5.  Take that to the bank, and get your bullpen into the game, while you still have the lead.

Well, you might not be talking abstracts here but I was responding to a post about Molitor as a manager.   Even in context of this specific game and pitcher would you have been saying the same thing if the 2nd guy Colon faced in the 7th hit into a double play and he got the next guy on a pop up and we win 3-2?  If Molitor replaced him to start the 7th would you have been saying he should have been replaced an inning earlier?   Maybe you would have.  Honestly, if he had been taken out after the 5th and whoever relieved him gave up a bunch of runs there would be plenty on here ripping Molitor for taking Colon out while he had only given up one run in 5 innings.   Maybe it wouldn't have been you but it would have been somebody.

[USAFChief]

Well, you might not be talking abstracts here but I was responding to a post about Molitor as a manager.   Even in context of this specific game and pitcher would you have been saying the same thing if the 2nd guy Colon faced in the 7th hit into a double play and he got the next guy on a pop up and we win 3-2?  If Molitor replaced him to start the 7th would you have been saying he should have been replaced an inning earlier?   Maybe you would have.  Honestly, if he had been taken out after the 5th and whoever relieved him gave up a bunch of runs there would be plenty on here ripping Molitor for taking Colon out while he had only given up one run in 5 innings.   Maybe it wouldn't have been you but it would have been somebody.

Speaking for myself and several others, go read the game thread.

 

Yes, I'd still be saying the same thing. Even if Martin hits into a DP. I DID say the same thing...in advance. I feel like those defending Molitor here must not have watched the game.

[Kwak]

 

I do appreciate how back to back posts can analyze the same decision and range from "more proof Molitor should be fired" to "I agree with the move".

Read the story about last night fight and the judges' decisions--things will be clear to you.

[drjim]

Does following pitch by pitch on an app and following many people on Twitter count as watching?

[drjim]

Does following pitch by pitch on an app and following many people on Twitter count as watching?

I will say that the one weakness of this methid in the context of a discussion is that I don't fully appreciate loud outs.

 

Like I said, I would have pulled after the 4 pitch walk.

[Darius]

They got some good run out of Colon, I think it's over.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

They got some good run out of Colon, I think it's over.

No No No, my friend, he has three more starts lined up. Three.

[Dantes929]

 

Speaking for myself and several others, go read the game thread.

Yes, I'd still be saying the same thing. Even if Martin hits into a DP. I DID say the same thing...in advance. I feel like those defending Molitor here must not have watched the game.

Fair enough.  I trust you.    I saw much of the game and I will say again I don't know how anyone can know when he is done because he always looks extremely hittable and yet he is a huge reason why we are where we are.     I said I would have pulled him after the 4 pitch walk but acknowledge without hindsight that could have been the exact wrong thing to do.    We don't know what would have happened if Pressley had started the inning.