Twins fire Dougie Baseball

[Otto von Ballpark]

my gut is that he's the one who isn't acting professionally.

You think? Mientkiewicz said to the press, "You think they will ever do something professional as an organization?" I get that he's frustrated, but that's not really an appropriate public response here, and gives us some insight into how he would have reacted if someone other than Steil would have made the call.

[Otto von Ballpark]

As for the timing, were they supposed to make him wait a month without a 2018 contract before telling him this? Something tells me Mientkiewicz would have been just as upset then -- "why didn't you tell me a month ago?"

 

They didn't dismiss him before his season was over, and they didn't give him this news until the hurricane was over. Seems like the most professional timing possible.

[Craig Arko]

[Steve Lein]

 

I fully understand that, I am just curious about what forms your opinion, in case it is something that might change my own.

 

I know Doug can have a challenging personality, especially when it comes to authority.

 

In the call with Brad Steil that was described, what gets me thinking about why he deserved a better explanation on the why (not necessarily the "who" that made the decision - that should probably be obvious), is for some of the exact reasons he said, and apparently the comments from Steil, like this one: 

 

"Mientkiewicz congratulated Steil on his pending promotion within the organization, “and he said, ‘I couldn’t have done it without you,’ "

 

You literally just told the guy he had a direct effect on your own success, but he can't go into details at that moment why that doesn't matter? Give me a break. I would think I'd have legal means for challenging my dismissal at a job if that's what I was told. I know that's not how it works here, but that's pretty crappy way to go about it if you're not going to give at least some constructive criticism. 

 

Doug also, right or wrong, did go back with the organization a while. I know it's the new guys team, and I know we all balk at mention of the country club like atmosphere, but loyalty does mean something.

 

Doug came back to the Twins because that's where he wanted to come. He didn't have to, but held them in high enough regard to do so. Then he had a ton of success. Read all the quotes from people who played for him.

 

Like this sequence:

 

 

I don't think he was part of the development problem perceived. Most people will forget about this by next April, but I won't. If I make it down to Spring Training next year I'm going to miss his personality on the fields, and watching him teach his players and spend the extra time with them. He definitely connected with his guys and got them to play hard for him.

[biggentleben]

 

um, no. He had a bad 1999 season for us but was in the minors all of 2000. From 2001-2004 he was the Twins fulltime player. All of those teams had winning records and he was a big part of those teams. He and AJ essentially were tied for WAR lead on the 03 team. 

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mientdo01.shtml

 

Okay, I'll give 2003, but BRef gives that season crazy preference to other seasons compared to Fangraphs and BP. Subjectively, I'd say his best year was 2001, which was not a playoff season.

[biggentleben]

 

My counters are in red.

 

Do realize, however, that Doug overestimated his time with the organization by over 10 years. There are many people who have been with the Twins for over 15 years in one way, shape, or form.

[GP830]

 

You think? Mientkiewicz said to the press, "You think they will ever do something professional as an organization?" I get that he's frustrated, but that's not really an appropriate public response here, and gives us some insight into how he would have reacted if someone other than Steil would have made the call.

Hah, yes!

[biggentleben]

 

Here are the AFL coaching assignments, dated July 26. Twins are only sending a trainer:

http://www.mlb.com/documents/8/6/8/244568868/Assignments_4xivb6tk.pdf

Don't know how these decisions are made, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask someone if they are interested in doing it, even if you don't necessarily want to renew their contract for 2018. It's a job opportunity, could have helped him land with a different org for 2018 too.

 

Exactly, there are coaches there on "sponsorship" from a team that they will not be returning to the next season. The Braves did that for a lower level pitching coach two years ago, and he was able to get another job after working with a few pitchers in a way that another org liked.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I know Doug can have a challenging personality, especially when it comes to authority.

 

In the call with Brad Steil that was described, what gets me thinking about why he deserved a better explanation on the why (not necessarily the "who" that made the decision - that should probably be obvious), is for some of the exact reasons he said, and apparently the comments from Steil, like this one:

 

"Mientkiewicz congratulated Steil on his pending promotion within the organization, “and he said, ‘I couldn’t have done it without you,’ "

 

You literally just told the guy he had a direct effect on your own success, but he can't go into details at that moment why that doesn't matter? Give me a break. I would think I'd have legal means for challenging my dismissal at a job if that's what I was told. I know that's not how it works here, but that's pretty crappy way to go about it if you're not going to give at least some constructive criticism.

 

You just said Mientkiewicz has "a challenging personality when it comes to authority" but you somehow think his termination phone call would have been improved by his boss immediately giving him details behind the decision to not bring him back along with that news? Or if only a higher authority figure would have spoken to him instead? That would be like feeding the beast, rather than starving it.

 

Might as well say a manager wouldn't have ranted and raved at an umpire if only the umpire would have explained his decision better. The conflict is deeper than that.

[Mike Sixel]

It's kind of against the law to discuss why you fired someone in any specific way in public.....not exactly, but close. There are labor laws at play here also. The Twins owe the public 100% zero explanation for why this was done. Zero. Really, most companies won't even discuss in private with other companies why a move was made. TOO MANY LAWSUITS for that to happen.

 

And yes, his direct boss should do it, not some other exec. Even in a better world we live in, that's how it should be done. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

IMO, they'd have been out of line going over Stiels head and micromanaging it themselves. Is that what we want, Falvine micromanaging every detail?

Wasn't everybody hoping they would come in and make sweeping changes in an organization that desperately needed it? How does letting the massive amount of the old guard still with the Twins continue to operate as they had in the past fix anything? 

[Steve Lein]

 

You just said Mientkiewicz has "a challenging personality when it comes to authority" but you somehow think his termination phone call would have been improved by his boss immediately giving him details behind the decision to not bring him back along with that news? Or if only a higher authority figure would have spoken to him instead? That would be like feeding the beast, rather than starving it.

Might as well say a manager wouldn't have ranted and raved at an umpire if only the umpire would have explained his decision better. The conflict is deeper than that.

 

Yes, because often times in that situation, what that personality is looking for is a concrete, meaningful response as to why they aren't a fit - the constructive criticism I talked about. About the worst thing you can do to those types of personalities is leave it to interpretation, because you'll get exactly what is going on here now. Often times that is the problem with authority that they have.

 

What his response to that would have been, I don't know, but the context could be completely changed from Doug being mistreated to perhaps him looking like the bad guy (I know some of you already think this, and have legitimate opinions as to why), or shocking, it being amicable. Never know, the reason could have been something he wasn't willing to change, and he goes "okay thanks for being honest."

[Steve Lein]

 

Wasn't everybody hoping they would come in and make sweeping changes in an organization that desperately needed it? How does letting the massive amount of the old guard still with the Twins continue to operate as they had in the past fix anything? 

 

In my opinion, as far as an "old guard" with the Twins goes when it comes to MiLB and development personnel, Doug wasn't a part of that. That was more front office people, scouts - not the on-field guys. He was new blood on the managerial side, with a different way of operating, which was a change from the perception of those before him.

 

In this line of thinking shouldn't Jake Mauer be fired as well? Tommy Watkins? Jeff Smith? Ray Smith?

 

How bad are casual fans going to flip when they fire Molitor after he maybe wins the Coach of the Year award?

[bird]

 

The game 7 ball thing? He didn't do anything wrong!!!! Players should never just give anything to greedy billionaire owners for "free"

 

Yeah!!!! They should keep it for their greedy multimillionaire selves!!!!! 

[SwainZag]

 

In my opinion, as far as an "old guard" with the Twins goes when it comes to MiLB and development personnel, Doug wasn't a part of that. That was more front office people, scouts - not the on-field guys. He was new blood on the managerial side, with a different way of operating, which was a change from the perception of those before him.

 

In this line of thinking shouldn't Jake Mauer be fired as well? Tommy Watkins? Jeff Smith? Ray Smith?

 

How bad are casual fans going to flip when they fire Molitor after he maybe wins the Coach of the Year award?

 

When was it said that "everyone" from the old regime would be let go?  Why can't guys be on a case by case basis?  And can we quit saying that he was fired?  Choosing not to re-new an expiring contract is a lot different than being fired.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Yes, because often times in that situation, what that personality is looking for is a concrete, meaningful response as to why they aren't a fit - the constructive criticism I talked about. About the worst thing you can do to those types of personalities is leave it to interpretation, because you'll get exactly what is going on here now.

 

What his response to that would have been, I don't know, but the context could be completely changed from Doug being mistreated to perhaps him looking like the bad guy, or shocking, it being amicable. Never know, the reason could have been something he wasn't willing to change, and he goes "okay thanks for being honest."

By his own admission, Mientkiewicz was not surprised. He knew it was coming, the season was over, he didn't have a contract for 2018. He doesn't really get to plead surprise or shock in demanding an explanation. It is not like they gave him an offer one day and retracted it the next, or asked him to clean out his desk suddenly midseason. He knew why he was being let go, as much as most folks employed in baseball ever knows such a thing.

 

By his own words, Mientkiewicz was not even asking for reasons, he was asking "who made the decision." That strikes me as an obvious aggressive stance, and not a person who is looking to passively agree to some constructive criticism before going quietly.

 

I admit I have been in this situation, on both sides, in both work and personal relationships. It's not fun, and sometimes I felt like Doug and wanted to fight it and press to get the "real truth" told to my face by the highest authority possible, but after reflection I realized that was never a good idea. There was never going to be an approach or explanation that would have been satisfactory in that moment.

[TRex]

 

When was it said that "everyone" from the old regime would be let go?  Why can't guys be on a case by case basis?  And can we quit saying that he was fired?  Choosing not to re-new an expiring contract is a lot different than being fired.

This x100.

[Seth Stohs]

Mientkiewicz, from a few I've talked to, knew it was coming. He was apparently telling people all year. There are a lot of reasons he was fired. The story has people all pumped up, but it's because of how Mientkiewicz handled it.

 

Tommy Watkins. Jake Mauer. They would have all handled it with class. But, what we've seen from Mientkiewicz is just a glimpse of why he was let go.

 

I wonder, if it had been one of the other managers let go, if there would be 13 (or more) pages of comments. 

 

I've talked to a bunch of players, that loved playing for him, and most of them can understand the decision, even if they don't like it. 

[terrydactyls]

It's kind of against the law to discuss why you fired someone in any specific way in public.....not exactly, but close. There are labor laws at play here also. The Twins owe the public 100% zero explanation for why this was done. Zero. Really, most companies won't even discuss in private with other companies why a move was made. TOO MANY LAWSUITS for that to happen.

 

And yes, his direct boss should do it, not some other exec. Even in a better world we live in, that's how it should be done.

 

This reminds of when I used to work.....

 

I was in hiring/firing level positions and we were always told to only give out employment dates to anyone asking about a former employee. All other questions had to be transferred to HR for legal reasons.

[Doomtints]

Few people are happy to get fired, even from jobs they hate. I don't expect Doug to be happy, nor do I expect him to act nice and pretend he is fine with it.

 

Doug stated his opinion as he is allowed to do. I don't think his firing was handled poorly (from what I heard) nor do I think he is out of line for speaking up about it.

 

I think some fans had their hearts set on Doug managing the Twins some day. I never thought this would happen, but I think this is where the fan reaction is coming from.

 

If you think back, Tom Kelly held Doug back a full year because he did not like Doug's attitude. Maybe he has a problem with authority, maybe not. I don't know the specifics or care that much to learn about them. I know Doug will continue to have a career in baseball (if he wants it) and he will always be welcomed at Target Field. The rest of this is noise. Doug will be fine with the Twins once the anger wears off.

[Jerr]

No other managers, had the history with Twins, fans that Dougie Baseball had, so not a chance of so many pages for anyone else.

[Seth Stohs]

 

No other managers, had the history with Twins, fans that Dougie Baseball had, so not a chance of so many pages for anyone else.

 

It kind of makes my point. The reason this is even a story is because it's Mientkiewicz. The rest of it is just details:

 

• He was helping recovery from Irma... well, he probably would be a week later, maybe a month later. So that's just an unfortunate detail.
• They wouldn't tell him why... I've seen some here, and I've talked to other HR types, who corroborate that they aren't supposed to say anything.
• Steil told him (instead of Falvey or Levine)... Steil remains the Minor League Director, so really, it is his job. 

[Mr. Brooks]

Wasn't everybody hoping they would come in and make sweeping changes in an organization that desperately needed it? How does letting the massive amount of the old guard still with the Twins continue to operate as they had in the past fix anything?

I'm not talking about who they do or don't let go.

I'm talking about who makes the phone call. That's literally what you have middle management (Steil) for.

Some here want Falvine going over Steils head and undermining his job duties. I don't understand that.

[Mr. Brooks]

By Doug's own words he was upset at not being told WHO fired him, not the why. I mean he specifically used those words, I'm not sure how it's even open to interpretation.

 

I actually feel a bit bad for Falvine.

They deserve to hire their own guys. They have been extremely conservative with firings, so far, IMO, and I think they did nothing wrong whatsoever in the way they handled Mientkiewicz.

They left it up to his supervisor, whom he knows, and did it right away so that he can get a jump on his next opportunity.

 

And now we have people suggesting that a hurricane or his spouse's health should make him unfireable.

We also have a columnist suggesting that he was fired for not accepting an AFL assignment because of his wife's health.

 

So, Falvine are now in the position where the only way they can prove that they aren't "classless", is by publically discussing why Doug was let go - which of course would itself actually be "classless".

Talk about a no win situation!

[Vanimal46]

 

By Doug's own words he was upset at not being told WHO fired him, not the why. I mean he specifically used those words, I'm not sure how it's even open to interpretation.

I actually feel a bit bad for Falvine.
They deserve to hire their own guys. They have been extremely conservative with firings, so far, IMO, and I think they did nothing wrong whatsoever in the way they handled Mientkiewicz.
They left it up to his supervisor, whom he knows, and did it right away so that he can get a jump on his next opportunity.

And now we have people suggesting that a hurricane or his spouse's health should make him unfireable.
We also have a columnist suggesting that he was fired for not accepting an AFL assignment because of his wife's health.

So, Falvine are now in the position where the only way they can prove that they aren't "classless", is by publically discussing why Doug was let go - which of course would itself actually be "classless".
Talk about a no win situation!

 

That's just it. Why out of the few firings they've made does DM need to get clarification on WHO made the firing? Nobody in the media or message boards clamored for the reason why Jack Goin was fired.... Or the Minor League Pitching Coordinator who I already forgot his name. 

[gunnarthor]

 

 Nobody in the media or message boards clamored for the reason why Jack Goin was fired.... . 

Didn't we? I thought we did.

[Vanimal46]

Didn't we? I thought we did.

Obviously I don't read every thread here, so maybe.

 

The one I was thinking of is tame compared to this thread about Doug.

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/27047-twins-part-ways-with-jack-goin/page-2

[Otto von Ballpark]

Maybe they should have re-hired Goin, just to call Mientkiewicz.

[beckmt]

One issue I see overlooked is that the Twins probably have different pitch counts for different levels of the system.  Many of these pitchers are between 19 and 22.  Twins are slowly ramping up the workload.  Number of pitches starting an inning is a criteria for usage.  Dougie seems to have ignored that.  

Other point seems to me that the decision was made that Dougie would never be on the major league staff either as a coach or a manager.  End of discussion, no wonder he was let go. 

It could have been the Twins were trying to showcase his abilites before letting him go,  the would explain the fall league issue brought up in the Star Tribune this morning.  

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

http://www.startribune.com/mientkiewicz-aftermath-it-s-a-bad-look/445713903/




Must be a whole lotta stuff at play behind the scenes involved in the decision to divest from Dougie Baseball. Bout the only thing I feel qualified to say is it would've looked a whole lot better for Falvey or Levine to make that phone call, than it did for Brad Steil.

I love the part where Jodi doesn't want to be cited but he cites her anyways.  Not sure Doug is playing this smart. If the Twins take enough mud, they might actually say their side, which I suspect will have a much greater impact on his future employment then if he shuts up.