Twins fire Dougie Baseball

[Otto von Ballpark]

That got me thinking about who he was most responsible for protecting this year. Lachlan Wells, who's still only 20, threw over 100 pitches in three-straight outings in late June. He missed all of July and most of August with a flexor mass strain. There was also a stretch in late August where Doug had Lewis Thorpe, who of course missed the prior two seasons, throw 97, 100 and 101 pitches in consecutive starts.

 

Wells threw over 100 pitches in consecutive starts with Cedar Rapids last year.

 

After those 3 starts for Thorpe, the org sent him to AA for a 96 pitch spot start.

 

Seems like pretty scant evidence, at this point.

[drivlikejehu]

 

Quite possibly he'll be winning games with superior in-game decisions as a field manager for a Major League Baseball franchise near you.  Depending upon where you are, that is.  We'll see.

 

We won't see it, because it will never happen.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Doug also had Tyler Jay throw 36 pitches over 2.1 innings in a playoff game on 9/5. That's a lot for an oft-injured reliever. The next day he had Tom Hackimer throw 45 pitches over 2.1 innings in another postseason game. That is a ton.

 

Cedar Rapids had Hackimer throw 36 and 38 pitches in April and May. Mientkiewicz only had him exceed that twice, 42 pitches on June 1st and then 45 in the playoff game you mention, his last appearance of the year.

 

Jay's season debut back in May saw him throw 31 pitches in one inning for AA Chattanooga. 36 over 2.1, again in his final appearance of the year, coming on the heels of 3 other 2 inning stints (including a 40-pitcher), seems fairly reasonable by comparison.

 

Just eyeballing it, but it seems like most of the top relievers at Cedar Rapids and Chattanooga had similar high pitch count games too.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Gonsalves topped 100 pitches in 4 of 13 starts for Mientkiewicz after his midseason promotion last year, and 3 of 15 starts in Chattanooga this year (starting late due to injury).

[Major League Ready]

 

OK, but if this is the problem - Dougie over pitching some guys - then isn't the real story (and huge concern) that the FO continued to let it happen? Shouldn't they have said, "Don't do that ever again." And, when he did, fire him on the spot? 

 

So I don't really think that was the problem.

 

This is the real question and a primary example of why none of us should take too hard of stance on a situation like this one.  I would guess they have specified guidelines.  Of course, given all the potential circumstances, guidelines are not nearly enough.  Has Steil discussed this with DM.  If not, thats a problem with Steil.  Perhaps this explains him getting a new role.  Maybe his weakness was leading the MiLB managers.  Perhaps they had talked to him about this issue and he just ignored them.  Thus, no new contract.  Who knows?   Maybe Levine intended to call DM after Steil delivered the news until DM acted out with the media.   

 

We just don't know nearly enough to assess the situation.  That does not mean we cant beat the heck out of the issue but we should understand the limitations of our access and the potential giant holes in understanding what happened and why.

[Craig Arko]

 

This is the real question and a primary example of why none of us should take too hard of stance on a situation like this one.  I would guess they have specified guidelines.  Of course, given all the potential circumstances, guidelines are not nearly enough.  Has Steil discussed this with DM.  If not, thats a problem with Steil.  Perhaps this explains him getting a new role.  Maybe his weakness was leading the MiLB managers.  Perhaps they had talked to him about this issue and he just ignored them.  Thus, no new contract.  Who knows?   Maybe Levine intended to call DM after Steil delivered the news until DM acted out with the media.   

 

We just don't know nearly enough to assess the situation.  That does not mean we cant beat the heck out of the issue but we should understand the limitations of our access and the potential giant holes in understanding what happened and why.

I'd venture to say the issue has had the heck beat out of it now.

[Mr. Brooks]

I can't believe it's controversial that Doug was fired by his direct supervisor, whom he has a personal relationship with.

 

I guess I can see having the personal OPINION that, maybe in this case, you do it differently. But, to go as far as calling it classless? Wow.

 

IMO, they'd have been out of line going over Stiels head and micromanaging it themselves. Is that what we want, Falvine micromanaging every detail?

[Jerr]

Here's Blyleven's take on the pitch count discussion:      and          

[biggentleben]

 

However classless it was, or what one feels about the process, I think it is a short sighted, and stupid move, because Doug is and was a winner. He made players better, and instilled spirit. Period. And they tired to spin it like they were doing him a favor. Do I hope they are just a carefree with replacing Molitor? No I don't. I hope they do it respectfully and kindly, and in person.

 

Winning doesn't matter. It's the minors. Winning is a fun tertiary thing to have a minor league manager do. 

[Doubles]

http://www.startribune.com/mientkiewicz-aftermath-it-s-a-bad-look/445713903/




Must be a whole lotta stuff at play behind the scenes involved in the decision to divest from Dougie Baseball. Bout the only thing I feel qualified to say is it would've looked a whole lot better for Falvey or Levine to make that phone call, than it did for Brad Steil.

[biggentleben]

 

I have a question that is partially related to this thread so if it needs to be moved, please do so. After reading the entire length of this topic, I find myself in a little bit of a quandry. It "appears" that the non-renewal of the contract may have been partially because DM did not believe in analytics which is the preference of the front office. My question is: how much emphasis should even be placed on analytics in the low minors when the goal at that level should be to develop skills of young men. I might not have a strong grasp on what is included in "analytics", but I would rather have a 20-year old shortstop learning the proper way to field a ground ball and start a double play than him knowing the tendency of the #8 batter to hit to the opposite field with two strikes and less than two outs. And, as so often pointed out by TD regulars, I may be completely out of touch with the 21st century world of baseball.

 

Analytics are not just to do with statistical measures of opponent performance. Swing plane is part of analytics, maximizing defensive positioning for each player is analytics, reviewing pitching mechanics through digital and video means is analytics. Those things are all developmental in nature. 

[biggentleben]

 

I think those are all valid questions. Generally, I think the answer (for me, anyway) is that the Twins new FO should have known that they couldn't/shouldn't treat Dougie Baseball like just any old minor league manager. He was beloved by a certain segment of the fan base who adored the early 2000 Twins. He was also very close with prominent local reporters and the lead writer of Twinkie Town loves him. They should know how important he is in the area. Full stop. Sure, that means treating him differently than a guy who was just your typical career minor league manager but he wasn't a typical minor league manager. They should have been prepared and they weren't.

 

Here's the really odd part - Douggie Baseball was beyond his best baseball by the time the Twins were actually good in the early 2000s. His best seasons were on losing clubs.

[Thrylos]

 

Must be a whole lotta stuff at play behind the scenes involved in the decision to divest from Dougie Baseball.  Bout the only thing I feel qualified to say is it would've looked a whole lot better for Falvey or Lavine to make that phone call, than it did for Brad Steil.  

 

You do realize that if that happened, they would have gone over Steil's head, and would have looked worse?  Steil was Mientkiewicz's boss, it was his phone call.   If Mientkiewicz needed more explanations, I suspect that he could have talked to his boss' boss, Levine.  Did he attempt to contact him?  Who knows.

 

The fact that his wife is ill, is something that Souhan shwould have not brought it out (HIPAA and all that jazz,) unless it was related to him by Mientkiewicz to get more sympathy from the fans regarding his non-renewal, which is a really horrible thing to do.

[Vanimal46]

I don't see anything new in this blog post. 

Again, I don't think it's "unclassy" or wrong to have his direct supervisor call to let him know he's no longer an employee of the Twins. Is it just being blown out of proportion because of DM's history with the organization? Would some still be upset if the AA manager had zero ties to the organization as a player? 

[biggentleben]

 

Doug also had Tyler Jay throw 36 pitches over 2.1 innings in a playoff game on 9/5. That's a lot for an oft-injured reliever. The next day he had Tom Hackimer throw 45 pitches over 2.1 innings in another postseason game. That is a ton.

 

Again, not sure whether the team took issue with stuff like that or if they had specific guidelines on excessive use for relievers. But I think it's safe to say Doug had a tendency to lean pretty hard on pitchers. 

 

This with arguably the deepest bullpen in the Twins system - he didn't NEED to throw one guy that much by any means.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

When is the surgery? Any more info they are holding back?

[Steve Lein]

I don't have a big problem with Falvine not making that call. Terry Ryan would have, but Steil is Mientkiewicz's direct boss.

 

What I have a problem with is they didn't even give him a reason. Not even a token "we're going in a different direction."

 

Overall bad form from the organization, though. Said right when I heard it that I disliked it a lot. It's only gotten worse since and even if the Twins come out with their side and it's a legitimate reason they're still going to look bad.

[Kwak]

All of this shows how desperate the Trib is to get readers.  DM is little more than a little prince who has been cast aside.  No way would he have been hired by the Twins except for his connection to "the old boy's club" that Terry Ryan ran.  The very same "OBC" that ownership (Pohlad, et al) decided they no longer wanted running their team.  True, this scenario occurs at many other companies but said organizations typically don't have access to sympathetic media (except politicians).  I suspect Colin Kaepernick will have a starting QB job before "Dougie baseball" has a baseball management job.  Takers?

[gunnarthor]

Ignoring the baseball stuff, hope and prayers for Jodi. I'm sure that's a pretty big added pressure for the family.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I don't have a big problem with Falvine not making that call. Terry Ryan would have, but Steil is Mientkiewicz's direct boss.

 

What I have a problem with is they didn't even give him a reason. Not even a token "we're going in a different direction."

 

Overall bad form from the organization, though. Said right when I heard it that I disliked it a lot. It's only gotten worse since and even if the Twins come out with their side and it's a legitimate reason they're still going to look bad.

On the other thread, a poster with knowledge of similar situations claimed that Ryan didn't make those phone calls, either.

 

That said, how could the Twins have handled this better?

[Otto von Ballpark]

What I have a problem with is they didn't even give him a reason. Not even a token "we're going in a different direction."

 

Overall bad form from the organization, though. Said right when I heard it that I disliked it a lot. It's only gotten worse since and even if the Twins come out with their side and it's a legitimate reason they're still going to look bad.

From the original article, there is no claim that they refused to provide Mientkiewicz with a reason. They refused to divulge any specific reasons in public, though.

 

http://m.startribune.com/doug-mientkiewicz-is-fired-as-minor-league-manager-for-twins/444772903/

 

What they didn't give Mientkiewicz was an answer to his question, "whose decision was it?" Which I don't think is an appropriate or constructive question to begin with, in that situation. Mientkiewicz was just searching for a villain to blame.

[Vanimal46]

 

From the original article, there is no claim that they refused to provide Mientkiewicz with a reason. They refused to divulge any specific reasons in public, though.

http://m.startribune.com/doug-mientkiewicz-is-fired-as-minor-league-manager-for-twins/444772903/

What they didn't give Mientkiewicz was an answer to his question, "whose decision was it?" Which I don't think is an appropriate or constructive question to begin with, in that situation. Mientkiewicz was just searching for a villain to blame.

 

Bingo. 

[gunnarthor]

 

Here's the really odd part - Douggie Baseball was beyond his best baseball by the time the Twins were actually good in the early 2000s. His best seasons were on losing clubs.

um, no. He had a bad 1999 season for us but was in the minors all of 2000. From 2001-2004 he was the Twins fulltime player. All of those teams had winning records and he was a big part of those teams. He and AJ essentially were tied for WAR lead on the 03 team. 

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mientdo01.shtml

[Otto von Ballpark]

Here are the AFL coaching assignments, dated July 26. Twins are only sending a trainer:

 

http://www.mlb.com/documents/8/6/8/244568868/Assignments_4xivb6tk.pdf

 

Don't know how these decisions are made, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask someone if they are interested in doing it, even if you don't necessarily want to renew their contract for 2018. It's a job opportunity, could have helped him land with a different org for 2018 too.

[Steve Lein]

 

From the original article, there is no claim that they refused to provide Mientkiewicz with a reason. They refused to divulge any specific reasons in public, though.

http://m.startribune.com/doug-mientkiewicz-is-fired-as-minor-league-manager-for-twins/444772903/

What they didn't give Mientkiewicz was an answer to his question, "whose decision was it?" Which I don't think is an appropriate or constructive question to begin with, in that situation. Mientkiewicz was just searching for a villain to blame.

 

That's not strictly what Doug was asking, IMO. 

 

You don't have to agree with me on that though, that's just how I read into it.

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

That's not strictly what Doug was asking, IMO.

 

You don't have to agree with me on that though, that's just how I read into it.

How else can you read this passage?

 

According to Mientkiewicz, he asked Steil if the decision was his, or if it came from Falvey or Levine. “He said, ‘We don’t give out that information.’ I said, ‘I’m not just some guy; I go back with this organization 25 years. I deserve an answer,’ ” Mientkiewicz said. “And Steil said, ‘We’re not going to give you one.’ ”

Nothing there about reasons, strictly about who's responsible.

[Steve Lein]

 

How else can you read this passage?


Nothing there about reasons, strictly about who's responsible.

 

Like I said --> "YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH ME ON [MY OPINION]"  

[GP830]

I hope for the best for Jodi. No doubt.

I'm really not impressed with Doug on this whole thing. As someone pointed out in another thread-- he handled being replaced by Morneau tactlessly. He handled the 2004 Game 7 final out ball tactlessly. And now this. I'm not convinced that Steil didn't offer up a minimal explanation and that wasn't enough for Dougie, so he's saying none was given.

The dude has had excellent talent playing for him, and has won-- so he's been a bit lucky with that. He is historically old school in his approach-- something that goes against what we know of the new regime. Additionally, this organization has had a tough time for years developing guys to step right in to the ML-- which is an indictment on our Minor League corps.

While I'm a little surprised it happened-- my gut is that he's the one who isn't acting professionally.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Like I said --> "YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH ME ON [MY OPINION]"

I fully understand that, I am just curious about what forms your opinion, in case it is something that might change my own.

[Doubles]

My counters are in red.

All of this shows how desperate the Trib is to get readers.  Completely disagree. At a minimum, isn't the AFL nugget curious?.  DM is little more than a little prince who has been cast aside.  Fact that DM is one of, if not the longest-tenured uniformed personnel members notwithstanding. No way would he have been hired by the Twins except for his connection to "the old boy's club" that Terry Ryan ran. Speculation, and also part of the process when new management is hired. The very same "OBC" that ownership (Pohlad, et al) decided they no longer wanted running their team.  True, this scenario occurs at many other companies but said organizations typically don't have access to sympathetic media (except politicians).  Twins also have access to same 'sympathetic media' platform, but have chosen not to exercise it. Yet. I suspect Colin Kaepernick will have a starting QB job before "Dougie baseball" has a baseball management job.  Takers?  No idea what the hook to what'shisname is, but anyway...