Twins fire Dougie Baseball

[drivlikejehu]

 

Aren't we talking about a new approach - "GMs do not make phone calls" - is what is truly old school and disappointing.  Are we going to see another former Indian take his place?  Because if we want to talk Old School - Doug was Old Twin and that should count too.   The Indians have become a successful organization, but their history is not so good that we want to completely follow their example. 

 

That just isn't how the world works, as various posters have pointed out from personal experience. Steil's job is to handle minor league coaches and he did his job, there's nothing more to it than that. 

 

The manager of a Hi-A team is not a particularly important person within the organization. In this case, that role was filled by someone famous, but it's a low-level role that does not involve high compensation. There is far more supply than demand for ex-baseball players (MLB or MiLB) who want to stay involved in the game. 

 

The mere fact this discussion has taken place is proof that he wasn't really a good fit for the job. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

It's so weird to me to see some of the same people who generally agree the Twins need to modernize their approach complain about the firing of a guy who doesn't align with that modernization.

I see much more criticism of the way he was let go rather than the fact the Twins decided not to keep Doug around.

 

He should be pissed about being fired. I don't anybody who wouldn't. What I don't understand are the comments that his anger is somehow "evidence of his true character," and therefore the Twins needed to let him go. I'm also not sure how his actions during his tenure as a player have any relevancy in the decision to keep him around as a minor league manager. 

 

If Doug wasn't willing to go in a direction that the organization felt was necessary then firing him was the right decision. Did the Twins owe it to him for Falvey and/or Levine to call or to give him an explanation out the door? No, but that doesn't mean the situation was handled well. 

[DaveW]

But that directs back to my fourth point. Maybe the Twins handled this badly. Or maybe Steil requested to be the one to do it because he has a relationship with Mientkiewicz. Or maybe Falvine and Mientkiewicz have a hostile relationship.

 

We simply can't trust the word of Mientkiewicz in this situation. We know he has handled things badly in the past and comes up with some jacked up rationale to behave the way he does.

 

The Boston game seven ball still makes me shake my head. In my opinion, that told me all I need to know about Mientkiewicz's mentality.

The game 7 ball thing? He didn't do anything wrong!!!! Players should never just give anything to greedy billionaire owners for "free"

[gunnarthor]

 

But then when the Red Sox asked for it back he refused to give it up.  The Red Sox had to take it to court in 2005.   In the end he "donated" it to the HOF for an unknown tax benefit.  

 

If the story was just a misunderstanding as Dougie B tries to portray, it never would've went to court.  For me what this shows is Doug holds grudges and has a tendency to play the victim through the media when its serves his interest.

 

Fun ballplayer though.  

Oh yeah, he's a head strong player and after Shaungessy wrote his hit piece, ownership insulted him (rent-a-player) and then he dug his heels in. He certainly could have handled it better on his end but the whole thing was created by the reporter.  

 

http://www.espn.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=6396726

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

The game 7 ball thing? He didn't do anything wrong!!!! Players should never just give anything to greedy billionaire owners for "free"

It was almost guaranteed to end up at the HoF anyway. It's the most important baseball in Red Sox history. He should have offered it to the Hall immediately. The guy earned close to $15m during his playing career, he doesn't need to extort history for a few more bucks.

[clutterheart]

 

Oh yeah, he's a head strong player and after Shaungessy wrote his hit piece, ownership insulted him (rent-a-player) and then he dug his heels in. He certainly could have handled it better on his end but the whole thing was created by the reporter.  

 

http://www.espn.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=6396726

 

I have heard Shaungessy on WBZ allude that he was fed that story by Red Sox folks who were already getting stonewalled on their attempt to get the ball back.    

 

In the end, the real story might be in the middle.  Doug plays the victim card, AND Shaungessy is hack.  

[big dog]

Doug confirmed something I have suspected for years.  My thinking was someday, potentially soon, Molitor is gone, and Doug assumes he'll be the new manager.  If he doesn't get the job (and I didn't think he should or would), there's going to be bloody *$ to pay, all played out in the media and distracting everyone from the new manager.  This avoids that problem, and in fact seems to provide a preview of what might have happened.  I'm glad to have avoided it this way, especially given the pitch count avoidance- if that's true, it could have happened earlier.

 

And whether his players like him or not, I don't care.  Some great managers haven't been anyone's friend, some players have loved totally clueless managers.  Doesn't matter.

[Kernels Fan]

Perhaps Tommy Watkins wanted to return to Fort Myers and keep coaching the kids he sent down there earlier in the year?

[brvama]

A few thoughts I have:

1. Where does one draw the line on having Falway/Levine fire (or hire) MiLB managers? Would the same applied to Tommy Watkins, whose been only with Twins, IIRC? Mauer? Others?

2. If DM deserved a higher level firing, maybe it should have been Pohlad, he owns the club. Many were upset we he mandated that Molitor be kept this year, which had some justification.

3. What kind of message does it sent to those that are in charged of various departments of the team, when the FO/CEO steps in front of those directors? Wouldn't it undermined their authority? CEOs hire people to run various departments and give them the mission desired to be accomplished. It's the directors responsibility to operate accordingly.

4. Finally, to be fair to Doug; as an intense individual and the stress he was under, I'm not sure his reaction would not have been any different. I might have done the same. But when it all breaks out, he has to learn to manage his intensity a bit if he wants to be a leader/manager on the rise.

[gunnarthor]

 

A few thoughts I have:
1. Where does one draw the line on having Falway/Levine fire (or hire) MiLB managers? Would the same applied to Tommy Watkins, whose been only with Twins, IIRC? Mauer? Others?
2. If DM deserved a higher level firing, maybe it should have been Pohlad, he owns the club. Many were upset we he mandated that Molitor be kept this year, which had some justification.
3. What kind of message does it sent to those that are in charged of various departments of the team, when the FO/CEO steps in front of those directors? Wouldn't it undermined their authority? CEOs hire people to run various departments and give them the mission desired to be accomplished. It's the directors responsibility to operate accordingly.
4. Finally, to be fair to Doug; as an intense individual and the stress he was under, I'm not sure his reaction would not have been any different. I might have done the same. But when it all breaks out, he has to learn to manage his intensity a bit if he wants to be a leader/manager on the rise.

I think those are all valid questions. Generally, I think the answer (for me, anyway) is that the Twins new FO should have known that they couldn't/shouldn't treat Dougie Baseball like just any old minor league manager. He was beloved by a certain segment of the fan base who adored the early 2000 Twins. He was also very close with prominent local reporters and the lead writer of Twinkie Town loves him. They should know how important he is in the area. Full stop. Sure, that means treating him differently than a guy who was just your typical career minor league manager but he wasn't a typical minor league manager. They should have been prepared and they weren't.

 

[spinowner]

 

I think those are all valid questions. Generally, I think the answer (for me, anyway) is that the Twins new FO should have known that they couldn't/shouldn't treat Dougie Baseball like just any old minor league manager. He was beloved by a certain segment of the fan base who adored the early 2000 Twins. He was also very close with prominent local reporters and the lead writer of Twinkie Town loves him. They should know how important he is in the area. Full stop. Sure, that means treating him differently than a guy who was just your typical career minor league manager but he wasn't a typical minor league manager. They should have been prepared and they weren't.

Maybe they should have handled it differently, but I don't think they should be pilloried for it. How Mient was notified of the decision was a very minor error in judgment (if it was an error at all).

[Loosey]

 

He was not fired.  His contract expired and will not be renewed.

Underling?

The person who called him was the minor league director.  His boss.

Usually when people get notified that their contract will not be renewed, the notification is done by their boss.  Not the CEO or the COO.

It was also done by a guy he knows much better than Falvey or Levine.  So having a person he may have a personal relationship with would seem to be a better way to do it than have the GM whom he rarely speaks with make the call.  

[jkcarew]

 

Couldn't disagree more. 

 

I wish him the best. Personally, I'm glad he's no longer with the Twins organization because he represents a mentality I want to see the Twins leave behind, a mentality that was partially responsible for the mess the organization has found itself mired in for the past several seasons.

 

It's so weird to me to see some of the same people who generally agree the Twins need to modernize their approach complain about the firing of a guy who doesn't align with that modernization.

Couldn't disagree more.  Does analytics now provide the entire universe of player development and team construction tools?  Will it soon?  And what will analytics even look like 10 years from now?  One thing it won't be...is associated with the term modernization.  That will be something else.  Will analytics evolve to the point of rendering in-game management or player motivation obsolete?  Most likely, the art (and science) of evaluating players and constructing teams will continue to evolve.  But, the ability to win games will remain the most important skill.  Forever.  To build an entire organization with ability to see things though only one lens, at any point in time, is questionable.

 

In the long run, it doesn't matter how Mientkiewicz was fired or what his reaction was.  This is professional sports, after all.  All that matters when we look back at it, is whether he ends up being more valuable than the people we replace him with.  In that regard, I'm glad so many posters have inside knowledge that Mientkiewicz is an insubordinate --hole.  Because my alternative conclusion would have been that Falvey and Levine don't know what they're doing.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Couldn't disagree more. 

 

Couldn't disagree more.  Does analytics now provide the entire universe of player development and team construction tools?  Will it soon?  And what will analytics even look like 10 years from now?  One thing it won't be...is associated with the term modernization.  That will be something else.  Will analytics evolve to the point of rendering in-game management or player motivation obsolete?  Most likely, the art (and science) of evaluating players and constructing teams will continue to evolve.  But, the ability to win games will remain the most important skill.  Forever.  To build an entire organization with ability to see things though only one lens, at any point in time, is questionable.

 

In the long run, it doesn't matter how Mientkiewicz was fired or what his reaction was.  This is professional sports, after all.  All that matters when we look back at it, is whether he ends up being more valuable than the people we replace him with.  In that regard, I'm glad so many posters have inside knowledge that Mientkiewicz is an insubordinate --hole.  Because my alternative conclusion would have been that Falvey and Levine don't know what they're doing.

 

where did Brock say, or even imply, analytics was the only thing that mattered? 

[Guest]

Interesting thread.

 

I have little to add, but I don't find it surprising that Falvine had little/no direct contact with DM during the season. They weren't in CR, that I recall seeing, either. Steil, of course, was in town several times and Tommy Watkins obviously spoke with him regularly.

 

Yes, Terry Ryan showed up at affiliates' ballparks occasionally, but he was an old-school scout, by trade. Falvine are not. They rely on Steil and he apparently has earned their confidence. That's a good thing.

 

I do know the Twins have implemented more analytical-based changes at the minor league levels. Video review, lineup construction, defensive shifts, etc., were all clearly more evident in CR this season than ever before and Watkins & his coaches were embracing it. They adapted.

 

Sure, teaching footwork and hitting approach are still important, but you also don't want players getting to MLB before having to learn about defensive shifts and how to use video to improve your game and prepare for opponents.  

 

The minors are also for developing future MLB managers and coaches. If you want a MLB field staff that knows how to apply your philosophies at that level, you need to have them learn how to do that during their tenures in the minors.

 

I have no personal knowledge of how DM did or didn't adapt to the changes the new FO was implementing throughout the organization, but they WERE implementing them and IF he was slow or reluctant to adapt, it's not a surprise that he's gone.

 

As for how it was done, I'm in the "Steil was his boss, so Steil was the right person to deliver the news" camp.

 

If I were picking nits, it would be to suggest that Steil's appropriate response to the question of "who's decision was this?" would have been, "It was my decision." Regardless of how the discussions with Falvine went, when the decision is made, you own it and you communicate it in that manner. That's how I was taught, anyway. But, in the end, that's a pretty minor thing.

 

[peterb18]

I'd guess he was told long before what was happening, and this was simply the notification that all the paper work had been completed.  Doug isn't all that credible of a source on matters like this.

How do you know this...or just your opinion? You have sources close to Twins management."

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Couldn't disagree more. 

 

Couldn't disagree more.  Does analytics now provide the entire universe of player development and team construction tools?  Will it soon?  And what will analytics even look like 10 years from now?  One thing it won't be...is associated with the term modernization.  That will be something else.  Will analytics evolve to the point of rendering in-game management or player motivation obsolete?  Most likely, the art (and science) of evaluating players and constructing teams will continue to evolve.  But, the ability to win games will remain the most important skill.  Forever.  To build an entire organization with ability to see things though only one lens, at any point in time, is questionable.

 

In the long run, it doesn't matter how Mientkiewicz was fired or what his reaction was.  This is professional sports, after all.  All that matters when we look back at it, is whether he ends up being more valuable than the people we replace him with.  In that regard, I'm glad so many posters have inside knowledge that Mientkiewicz is an insubordinate --hole.  Because my alternative conclusion would have been that Falvey and Levine don't know what they're doing.

First, I never said analytics is the only thing that matters.

 

But it's been reported several times through various comments that Mientkiewicz isn't only ignorant of modern analytics, he's said enough on the subject to convince me he's hostile toward the idea.

 

And just as if I ignored my boss and wrote code in an outdated language after being told to use something else, I'd expect to be fired for it.

 

Analytics isn't the answer for everything... Hell, Levine isn't even an analytics guy. Even Falvey is a hybrid guy who only leans analytics. The new front office isn't a computer, they believe in traditional scouting and some old-school thought processes along with a dose of modern analytical processes.

 

And if I had an employee who refused to get on board with those ideals, hell yeah I'd fire them. Mientkiewicz had his shot. He was given an entire season of evaluation, just like (almost) everyone else in the organization. And the bosses didn't like what they saw after a full season of play and given what I know of Dougie's baseball mentality, I don't blame them one bit for the decision. I likely would have done the same thing in their position.

 

[RaoulDuke]

 

I have a question that is partially related to this thread so if it needs to be moved, please do so. After reading the entire length of this topic, I find myself in a little bit of a quandry. It "appears" that the non-renewal of the contract may have been partially because DM did not believe in analytics which is the preference of the front office. My question is: how much emphasis should even be placed on analytics in the low minors when the goal at that level should be to develop skills of young men. I might not have a strong grasp on what is included in "analytics", but I would rather have a 20-year old shortstop learning the proper way to field a ground ball and start a double play than him knowing the tendency of the #8 batter to hit to the opposite field with two strikes and less than two outs. And, as so often pointed out by TD regulars, I may be completely out of touch with the 21st century world of baseball.

 

Saber isn't the only part of it.  Their approach in Cleveland included newer age training/ thinking along targeting players based on what they see as a market inefficiency to be capitalized on. Look at Trevor Bauer for example.

 

The analytics in the minors just helps to show a deeper picture of a players strengths and weaknesses, they can identify things like spin rate and say hey we should focus on this kids curve, hey this catcher is a good pitch framer, ect.  Its not the manager sitting there reading charts to the player before he steps into the box.    

 

What is super old school Dougie Baseball going to do/ add to when the organization is focusing on things he has no grasp or affinity for. 

[jkcarew]

 

First, I never said analytics is the only thing that matters.

 

But it's been reported several times through various comments that Mientkiewicz isn't only ignorant of modern analytics, he's said enough on the subject to convince me he's hostile toward the idea.

 

And if I had an employee who refused to get on board with those ideals, hell yeah I'd fire them. Mientkiewicz had his shot. He was given an entire season of evaluation, just like (almost) everyone else in the organization. And the bosses didn't like what they saw after a full season of play and given what I know of Dougie's baseball mentality, I don't blame them one bit for the decision. I likely would have done the same thing in their position.

OK.  Hostility toward new ideas, if true, definitely can't have that.  But you state much of this with such certainly, and I don't know exactly where your information is coming from.  What do you mean when you refer to "Dougie's baseball mentality".  If you are referring to undesirable behind-the-scenes behaviors unknown to me...fine.  But if you are referring to his 'intense style', then I would continue to disagree.  I think results always trump style....and I want diversity of styles in the organization.  And Doug has been very good with results.

[Kwak]

 

I have a question that is partially related to this thread so if it needs to be moved, please do so. After reading the entire length of this topic, I find myself in a little bit of a quandry. It "appears" that the non-renewal of the contract may have been partially because DM did not believe in analytics which is the preference of the front office. My question is: how much emphasis should even be placed on analytics in the low minors when the goal at that level should be to develop skills of young men. I might not have a strong grasp on what is included in "analytics", but I would rather have a 20-year old shortstop learning the proper way to field a ground ball and start a double play than him knowing the tendency of the #8 batter to hit to the opposite field with two strikes and less than two outs. And, as so often pointed out by TD regulars, I may be completely out of touch with the 21st century world of baseball.

I think the hiring of DM had the premise of placing him on a path to field manager (though without a guarantee that he would become one).  That DM wasn't hired to "teach" as much as he was hired to "learn and develop" himself.  When (apparently) he was evaluated as "not on a tenure path" with the Twins, he was "given his unconditional release".

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

OK.  Hostility toward new ideas, if true, definitely can't have that.  But you state much of this with such certainly, and I don't know exactly where your information is coming from.  What do you mean when you refer to "Dougie's baseball mentality".  If you are referring to undesirable behind-the-scenes behaviors unknown to me...fine.  But if you are referring to his 'intense style', then I would continue to disagree.  I think results always trump style....and I want diversity of styles in the organization.  And Doug has been very good with results.

I have no problems with his intensity, in fact I appreciate it.

 

I've gleaned information over the years since Mientkiewicz was hired. A quote here, a comment there. Tom even chimed in earlier in the thread with more information about pitch counts, which is troubling. No way in hell should Lewis Thorpe go over 100 pitches multiple times in the minors.

 

It has led me to believing that Mientkiewicz is likely more interested in his win count than organizational development, which puts into doubt his ability to manage a MiLB team. Sometimes, you need to take the loss in any given game for the good of the prospect and organization.

[Vanimal46]

 

I have no problems with his intensity, in fact I appreciate it.

 

I've gleaned information over the years since Mientkiewicz was hired. A quote here, a comment there. Tom even chimed in earlier in the thread with more information about pitch counts, which is troubling. No way in hell should Lewis Thorpe go over 100 pitches multiple times in the minors.

 

It has led me to believing that Mientkiewicz is likely more interested in his win count than organizational development, which puts into doubt his ability to manage a MiLB team. Sometimes, you need to take the loss in any given game for the good of the prospect and organization.

 

Damn. Didn't know that. I certainly want the FO to lean towards "the good of the prospect and organization" not how many Southern Conference Championships they can win in Chattanooga. It's been a pet peeve of mine when a player doesn't get the call to the majors in early September because Rochester or Chattanooga is in and/or fighting for the playoffs.  

[jkcarew]

 

I have no problems with his intensity, in fact I appreciate it.

 

I've gleaned information over the years since Mientkiewicz was hired. A quote here, a comment there. Tom even chimed in earlier in the thread with more information about pitch counts, which is troubling. No way in hell should Lewis Thorpe go over 100 pitches multiple times in the minors.

 

It has led me to believing that Mientkiewicz is likely more interested in his win count than organizational development, which puts into doubt his ability to manage a MiLB team. Sometimes, you need to take the loss in any given game for the good of the prospect and organization.

Agree that these are troublesome things.  My points would have been that, one, a well balanced organization can win with a field leader that is not an analytics guy. (I think you've clarified with me that you didn't imply otherwise.)  And that, two, an organization can win with a field leader this is a stubborn  --hole...or whatever adjectives you want to use to describe 'difficult personality'.  That an organization in this stage of it's evolution takes a significant risk when throwing away talent, even flawed talent.  You seem to believe that Mientkiewicz is beyond that...that he isn't willing to consistently work in a professional manner toward the objectives of his bosses.  If that were my conclusion (and it might be if I had more information), I would agree with you.

[Major League Ready]

 

Yup. Nothing the new regime has done has inspired confidence in me.

This is just another example of how they aren't pros, and aren't ready to run orgs. 

The Twins lose a couple tough games against the Dodgers and Astros and they hit the PANIC button and trade away our closer for NO reason. Now they don't even have the class to fire a long term manager in the org (not to mention a fan favorite!) Dougie M deserved much better than this. Hopefully it won't happen again in the future.

These guys seem completely out of touch.

The reason was about as basic as it gets in business.  There odds, as specified by numerous outside sources, were very low of even getting the wildcard much less a playoff series.  Yes, at the moment they are beating those long odds and we should be happy.  However, they have a couple of words for managers who makes decisions to do things in spite of longs odds.  Incompetent and Terminated come to mind.

 

I would even concede its possible that one more reliable arm in the pen could make a difference but your constant inference that our current leaders are not pros and are not ready is just self-indulgence.  Their track records are well-established. 

[Tom Froemming]

Doug also had Tyler Jay throw 36 pitches over 2.1 innings in a playoff game on 9/5. That's a lot for an oft-injured reliever. The next day he had Tom Hackimer throw 45 pitches over 2.1 innings in another postseason game. That is a ton.

 

Again, not sure whether the team took issue with stuff like that or if they had specific guidelines on excessive use for relievers. But I think it's safe to say Doug had a tendency to lean pretty hard on pitchers. 

[Major League Ready]

 

A few thoughts I have:
1. Where does one draw the line on having Falway/Levine fire (or hire) MiLB managers? Would the same applied to Tommy Watkins, whose been only with Twins, IIRC? Mauer? Others?
2. If DM deserved a higher level firing, maybe it should have been Pohlad, he owns the club. Many were upset we he mandated that Molitor be kept this year, which had some justification.
3. What kind of message does it sent to those that are in charged of various departments of the team, when the FO/CEO steps in front of those directors? Wouldn't it undermined their authority? CEOs hire people to run various departments and give them the mission desired to be accomplished. It's the directors responsibility to operate accordingly.
4. Finally, to be fair to Doug; as an intense individual and the stress he was under, I'm not sure his reaction would not have been any different. I might have done the same. But when it all breaks out, he has to learn to manage his intensity a bit if he wants to be a leader/manager on the rise.

Agree on all 4 points and would add #3 is the primary influence here regardless of how some would like to paint this situation.  I have never have even considered firing someone who reported to someone below me in the organization.  It's just not done.  That would be problematic on many levels.  People will expend considerable effort researching baseball history and/or statistics in supporting a point but these types of topics draw many unsubstantiated / unsupported opinions.  Try googling best practices for termination.  The position that Levine should have made the call is one of inexperience and/or fanaticism.

 

 

[gunnarthor]

 

Doug also had Tyler Jay throw 36 pitches over 2.1 innings in a playoff game on 9/5. That's a lot for an oft-injured reliever. The next day he had Tom Hackimer throw 45 pitches over 2.1 innings in another postseason game. That is a ton.

 

Again, not sure whether the team took issue with stuff like that or if they had specific guidelines on excessive use for relievers. But I think it's safe to say Doug had a tendency to lean pretty hard on pitchers. 

OK, but if this is the problem - Dougie over pitching some guys - then isn't the real story (and huge concern) that the FO continued to let it happen? Shouldn't they have said, "Don't do that ever again." And, when he did, fire him on the spot? 

 

So I don't really think that was the problem.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I've gleaned information over the years since Mientkiewicz was hired. A quote here, a comment there. Tom even chimed in earlier in the thread with more information about pitch counts, which is troubling. No way in hell should Lewis Thorpe go over 100 pitches multiple times in the minors.

It was 100 and 101 pitches. Thorpe got promoted to AA for a spot start and threw 96 pitches. Is the AA manager in danger now too?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

It was 100 and 101 pitches. Thorpe got promoted to AA for a spot start and threw 96 pitches. Is the AA manager in danger now too?

If Thorpe was the only guy who appeared to be ridden hard, I'd probably ignore it. But Tom listed three pitchers in his post, I believe.

[jkcarew]

 

What is super old school Dougie Baseball going to do/ add to when the organization is focusing on things he has no grasp or affinity for. 

Quite possibly he'll be winning games with superior in-game decisions as a field manager for a Major League Baseball franchise near you.  Depending upon where you are, that is.  We'll see.