Twins fire Dougie Baseball

[h2oface]

Formed in the box, living in the box, and defending the box. I get it. No, I am not saying it would be the "expected norm" to behave differently. I am saying expected norms can be classless and cowardly. We always have a choice, regardless of the norms. Outside the box can be more classy, in so many ways.

[Rhino and Compass]

This reminds me on a much smaller scale of the Cubs replacing Rick Renteria with Joe Maddon. There was no regard for the history of Renteria with the organization, or how important finally having a winning team was to Chicago, but Epstein in his judgement believed that Joe Maddon would be better for the team going forward and would align more completely with their vision. It seems to have worked out for Chicago.

It's ok to be upset for Mientkiewicz and feel like he is being done wrong despite all his contributions to the organization as a player and manager, but Falvey and Levine are focused on the future, and if Doug doesn't have the same philosophy that the FO have, then it's not a partnership that will be as productive going forward. Extracting the most value of an asset is exactly what small market teams need to do, as callous as it can be at times. 

The good news for Mientkiewicz is that he does have a good resume,and he will be on the market for the duration of the MLB hiring period. He'll get a job, and he'll have a fire in his belly to do even better than he was before. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

I honestly don't understand why people are so upset that Falvine didn't call Mientkiewicz. A few things:

 

1. We literally have no idea what kind of relationship they had to Dougie, if they had one at all.

 

2. Steil is Mientkiewicz's boss.

 

3. We don't know whose decision it was to move on from Mientkiewicz, though I feel it's most likely all parties were in agreement.

 

4. We're getting one side of the story here, yet many have determined the move was "classless". For all we know, Mientkiewicz did or said something really ****ing stupid and the Twins are "classy" enough to just stay silent on the matter. We read quotes from a pissed off ex-employee. Any working adult knows just how unreliable a person can be in that situation.

 

So I'm going to just go from what I know. I know the new front office is analytics-driven. I know Mientkiewicz is not. I know Mientkiewicz has done some on-field things in the past that likely embarrassed the organization. I know Mientkiewicz was demoted down a level prior to the season.

 

I wish him the best. Personally, I'm glad he's no longer with the Twins organization because he represents a mentality I want to see the Twins leave behind, a mentality that was partially responsible for the mess the organization has found itself mired in for the past several seasons.

 

It's so weird to me to see some of the same people who generally agree the Twins need to modernize their approach complain about the firing of a guy who doesn't align with that modernization.

[nicksaviking]

I honestly don't understand why people are so upset that Falvine didn't call Mientkiewicz. A few things:

 

1. We literally have no idea what kind of relationship they had to Dougie, if they had one at all.

 

2. Steil is Mientkiewicz's boss.

 

3. We don't know whose decision it was to move on from Mientkiewicz, though I feel it's most likely all parties were in agreement.

 

4. We're getting one side of the story here, yet many have determined the move was "classless". For all we know, Mientkiewicz did or said something really ****ing stupid and the Twins are "classy" enough to just stay silent on the matter. We read quotes from a pissed off ex-employee. Any working adult knows just how unreliable a person can be in that situation.

 

So I'm going to just go from what I know. I know the new front office is analytics-driven. I know Mientkiewicz is not. I know Mientkiewicz has done some on-field things in the past that likely embarrassed the organization. I know Mientkiewicz was demoted down a level prior to the season.

 

I wish him the best. Personally, I'm glad he's no longer with the Twins organization because he represents a mentality I want to see the Twins leave behind, a mentality that was partially responsible for the mess the organization has found itself mired in for the past several seasons.

 

It's so weird to me to see some of the same people who generally agree the Twins need to modernize their approach complain about the firing of a guy who doesn't align with that modernization.

Agree with it all, particularly with the fact that people are taking the disgruntled former employee's side of the story as gospel.

[Major League Ready]

 

Formed in the box, living in the box, and defending the box. I get it. No, I am not saying it would be the "expected norm" to behave differently. I am saying expected norms can be classless and cowardly. We always have a choice, regardless of the norms. Outside the box can be more classy, in so many ways.

This is from being framed in a box..  I have seen this close up in the largest corporations at this level for 30+ years.  This is standard procedure.  The box is not a sample, it is the hundreds of thousands of scenarios that led to this be standard procedure.  You simply want to insist this should be done another way when every major corporation in the country has learned this is the way it should be done.  You might want to consider the depth of experience and expertise that has lead to this process being done the way its done when you conclude its classless and that you have superior knowledge as to how it should have done.

 

We live in an extremely litigious country.   The legal ramifications heavily influence these procedures and that's just reality..  In addition,  DM had almost no relationship whatsoever with DM so the connection between DM's 20years of service is not Falvey or Levine.  It's the guy who gave him the news.  Much more appropriate than Falvey or Levine calling him.

 

In not releasing the details, the Twins were professional or with class if you prefer that term.  The poor reaction here was once again on the part of DM.   We are also assuming there was not a follow-up call from Falvey or Levine saying Doug we really appreciate your 20 years with the organization and wish you the best.  Perhaps even offer some indication as to why they made their decision.  Had DM acted more professionally, that call would have had a greater chance of happening.

[spinowner]

 

It really shouldn't be that weird. People are going to complain about the GM, FO, Managers, The will use whatever they can to do so  Ryan was an easy target on metrics, even though they eventually had a medium sized department. . It  was not about the modernization as much as it would be any chance to criticize management.   Being upset about the firing a manager who only appears to understand the non pitching element of the game is not about the manager but a chance to criticize the higher authority 

The other possibility is that  winning minor league managers are like prospects to the big club. They hit well, they pitch well, they manage well in the minor leagues. If that leads to championships there, it should only stand to reason they would do the same in the major league level.  Prospects should have got the chance. Minor league managers  that win are they great whites like the prospects

The primary purpose of the minor leagues is not to win games. It's to develop players. Certainly it's better to win than to lose, and it doesn't mean a manager shouldn't try to win games. But it does mean you don't overwork pitchers. It does mean you put players in a position to challenge themselves in areas that need improvement. It does mean that players sometimes need to fail in order to learn. Winning games takes a back seat to all of that. 

[Platoon]

On the matter of whether DM should have been told the rationale for his dismissal, I think it important to remember that he said HE wasn't told why. He never mentioned the general public, or TD posters. While I completely agree with Brian on wanting and finally getting a change in the FO, that does not mean I agree with every move they make. I have liked their general approach, but I did not like the handling of this matter. The Twins are in an entertainment business, with public perception a huge factor. IMHO they mishandled the dismissal of a long term employee. That opinion is not based on whether DM should have been let go but by how he was. But that's water under the dam. On another matter I found it odd, it it's true, that DM and Falvine had only spoken once all year? And this over the suspension? And I think on the phone? Does this mean Falvine did not visit the MiLB team all year? Or does it mean they did, and didn't even stop to say hi to one of the guys instrumental in developing their future? IF this is true, that's pretty hands off. I have had a lot of jobs, and I cannot think of one where I could not, or did not, converse with a management level several notches above me.

[Craig Arko]

I wonder how large the audience for this thread is? Does anybody know how large the audience is?

 

Sean?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czaDGaoD8Dw

[Platoon]

I wonder how large the audience for this thread is? Does anybody know how large the audience is?

Sean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czaDGaoD8Dw

Its by far the largest audience ever for a TD discussion. Look at all those posts! Way bigger than the ones Brock got in 2008. Yuge!

[mikelink45]

 

MLB GMs do not make phone calls to minor league coaches who aren't having their contracts renewed. That's just not how things work. Just because someone is famous from his past career as a player doesn't mean he should get special treatment.

Aren't we talking about a new approach - "GMs do not make phone calls" - is what is truly old school and disappointing.  Are we going to see another former Indian take his place?  Because if we want to talk Old School - Doug was Old Twin and that should count too.   The Indians have become a successful organization, but their history is not so good that we want to completely follow their example. 

[D. Hocking]

 

Its by far the largest audience ever for a TD discussion. Look at all those posts! Way bigger than the ones Brock got in 2008. Yuge!

 

I don't know - I heard a lot of the posters on these threads are actually bots and not real people.  Have you read some of the posts?

[gil4]

I wonder how large the audience for this thread is? Does anybody know how large the audience is?

 

Sean?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czaDGaoD8Dw

You need to ask that about DaveW's Dozier trade thread. If he didn't get an Emmy for that one, he was robbed.

[USAFChief]

I honestly don't understand why people are so upset that Falvine didn't call Mientkiewicz. A few things:

 

1. We literally have no idea what kind of relationship they had to Dougie, if they had one at all.

 

2. Steil is Mientkiewicz's boss.

 

3. We don't know whose decision it was to move on from Mientkiewicz, though I feel it's most likely all parties were in agreement.

 

4. We're getting one side of the story here, yet many have determined the move was "classless". For all we know, Mientkiewicz did or said something really ****ing stupid and the Twins are "classy" enough to just stay silent on the matter. We read quotes from a pissed off ex-employee. Any working adult knows just how unreliable a person can be in that situation.

 

So I'm going to just go from what I know. I know the new front office is analytics-driven. I know Mientkiewicz is not. I know Mientkiewicz has done some on-field things in the past that likely embarrassed the organization. I know Mientkiewicz was demoted down a level prior to the season.

 

I wish him the best. Personally, I'm glad he's no longer with the Twins organization because he represents a mentality I want to see the Twins leave behind, a mentality that was partially responsible for the mess the organization has found itself mired in for the past several seasons.

 

It's so weird to me to see some of the same people who generally agree the Twins need to modernize their approach complain about the firing of a guy who doesn't align with that modernization.

You can be in favor of modernizing their approach, even in favor of letting DM go, and still think this was handled poorly.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I am a bit relieved about this firing. Doug was not being groomed to be Molitor's replacement and I think we all knew that. He had a sort of entitled air about him in the quotes leading up to the Molitor hiring. When most of us were certain that Molitor was done at the end of the year (July?) I had a thought that Doug would throw a tantrum over not being a shoe-in and it would get uglier when he wasn't chosen at all. He is old-school, as has been covered quite well in this thread, but he also seems to lack some ability to thrive behind the scenes rather than in the forefront. 

I know less than most here about his style of, or aptitude for, managing, but instinct tells me a few things:

He doesn't rely on the decision making processes that the front office have embraced- and he is vocally proud of that. That doesn't endear you to your new bosses.

He seems to prefer talking on the record without much of a filter. As I get older, I get more and more annoyed with people who feel that being a brash 'straight-shooter' is a valuable trait. I have employees whom I interview and hire. That is not a trait I seek out. Learning to read the room and being flexible in your ability to communicate is important.

There would be no easy way to end the relationship. Twins fans are at least as nostalgic as any other fanbase. I'm a little surprised by his on the record comments, but the Twins fans' reactions are not at all surprising. If you're going to make this move, make it ASAP and be done with it. 

 

I was going to type something long....but this pretty much sums up my feelings.

[terrydactyls]

I have a question that is partially related to this thread so if it needs to be moved, please do so. After reading the entire length of this topic, I find myself in a little bit of a quandry. It "appears" that the non-renewal of the contract may have been partially because DM did not believe in analytics which is the preference of the front office. My question is: how much emphasis should even be placed on analytics in the low minors when the goal at that level should be to develop skills of young men. I might not have a strong grasp on what is included in "analytics", but I would rather have a 20-year old shortstop learning the proper way to field a ground ball and start a double play than him knowing the tendency of the #8 batter to hit to the opposite field with two strikes and less than two outs. And, as so often pointed out by TD regulars, I may be completely out of touch with the 21st century world of baseball.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I have a question that is partially related to this thread so if it needs to be moved, please do so. After reading the entire length of this topic, I find myself in a little bit of a quandry. It "appears" that the non-renewal of the contract may have been partially because DM did not believe in analytics which is the preference of the front office. My question is: how much emphasis should even be placed on analytics in the low minors when the goal at that level should be to develop skills of young men. I might not have a strong grasp on what is included in "analytics", but I would rather have a 20-year old shortstop learning the proper way to field a ground ball and start a double play than him knowing the tendency of the #8 batter to hit to the opposite field with two strikes and less than two outs. And, as so often pointed out by TD regulars, I may be completely out of touch with the 21st century world of baseball.

 

That's a good question, but that wasn't how he came across. He didn't come across as a guy that believed in managing differently, but was focused on development. He came across in all his comments as a guy that was anti analytics and change in general. 

[terrydactyls]

 

That's a good question, but that wasn't how he came across. He didn't come across as a guy that believed in managing differently, but was focused on development. He came across in all his comments as a guy that was anti analytics and change in general. 

My question is not about DM's non-renewal but about minor leagues and the importance of analytics.

[gunnarthor]

 

My question is not about DM's non-renewal but about minor leagues and the importance of analytics.

Klaw has said advanced stats like fip are worthless for minor leaguers. I think you're probably more correct on what a minor league manager should coach - get yourself in physical position to cover a play; don't stay out drinking until 2am; here's how you run the bases; stay on your toes, etc. Some of the things we'd expect to see in the majors - not letting lefty pitchers pitch to lefties, platoons - probably don't apply in the minors when you're trying to get experience for young players.

 

Where I think there might be legit breakdown between coaching and 'analytics' would be if (as presented by some in this thread) the team had a pitch count limit that the manager was ignoring or other (unstated) team roles/rules. If the Twins wanted Player A to get some high leverage innings out of the bullpen but the manager wanted to win the game more than give that player those innings, that would be a problem. But analytics themselves might not be a big part of minor league games if the main purpose is to get experience. I would be stunned if the FO was saying something like "don't let Kepler see LH pitchers" even though he might have struggled against them.

 

I assume this was more a personality conflict or Levine simply has someone else in mind he trusts more to take over some of the coaching positions.

[Craig Arko]

 

 

 

I assume this was more a personality conflict or Levine simply has someone else in mind he trusts more to take over some of the coaching positions.

I tend to think the former, but we can't know until a replacement is named. I also think this makes Jake Mauer's future in the organization really bright.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

You can be in favor of modernizing their approach, even in favor of letting DM go, and still think this was handled poorly.

But that directs back to my fourth point. Maybe the Twins handled this badly. Or maybe Steil requested to be the one to do it because he has a relationship with Mientkiewicz. Or maybe Falvine and Mientkiewicz have a hostile relationship.

 

We simply can't trust the word of Mientkiewicz in this situation. We know he has handled things badly in the past and comes up with some jacked up rationale to behave the way he does.

 

The Boston game seven ball still makes me shake my head. In my opinion, that told me all I need to know about Mientkiewicz's mentality.

[Platoon]

There is definitely a generational divide in place here. Analyticals seem to view DM as a Teradactyl. And those who judge curve balls by the Pascual standard seem to view DM as an icon of the way managers used to be. AKA the good old days. Where you sit on whether Dougie should have gotten the boot is definitely influenced by which side of the fence you stand on. The good old days guys have to remember that metrics is here to stay and is a useful tool in analyzing players and there niche in the game. The metrics guys have to accept that there is way more involved. At least I hope so. It's going to be very hard for a laptop dressed in a Twins cap and uniform to signal for a pitching change without arms! All those numbers have to be taken into context with the situation. A spread sheet can tell you that bunting results in such and such a percentage of success vs swinging away. But someone has to parse this with that days game, their pitcher, your staff, standings, who's on deck, who's bunting, who's playing third, the score, the inning, and maybe even the weather. That ain't all gonna be on that spreadsheet. Some guys have that knack, and some don't. And you won't find that distinction on any spreadsheet either.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I have a question that is partially related to this thread so if it needs to be moved, please do so. After reading the entire length of this topic, I find myself in a little bit of a quandry. It "appears" that the non-renewal of the contract may have been partially because DM did not believe in analytics which is the preference of the front office. My question is: how much emphasis should even be placed on analytics in the low minors when the goal at that level should be to develop skills of young men. I might not have a strong grasp on what is included in "analytics", but I would rather have a 20-year old shortstop learning the proper way to field a ground ball and start a double play than him knowing the tendency of the #8 batter to hit to the opposite field with two strikes and less than two outs. And, as so often pointed out by TD regulars, I may be completely out of touch with the 21st century world of baseball.

There's a lot more to analytics than OBP (not that you're saying that, I'm just boiling it down to a base element).

 

There is launch angle, swing type, approach, pitch limits/approach for health, etc. It's not as simple as just getting a guy to do Thing X in the majors. There's an entire approach the front office wants to implement and they need their MiLB staff on board.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

The good old days guys have to remember that metrics is here to stay and is a useful tool in analyzing players and there niche in the game. The metrics guys have to accept that there is way more involved. 

Sure, there is way more involved. I'd prefer a manager with analytics experience but what is most important is the willingness to adapt versus digging in your heels when your boss tells you do something. Molitor, despite his apparent faults, seems to be open to a more analytics-based approach. From what I read of Mientkiewicz, he was quite hostile to the idea.

 

That's why I didn't want Mientkiewicz managing the Twins three years ago and that's why I have no problems with letting him go today.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

The Boston game seven ball still makes me shake my head. In my opinion, that told me all I need to know about Mientkiewicz's mentality.

That was a made up story. He caught the last out and offered the ball to Francona who told him to keep it. Months later, Shaughnessy of the Globe calls him up, gets some funny quotes about the ball (Shaughnessy: "that ball will pay for your kids future" Dougie: "Dang right, that's their college right there."  After getting those quotes and not using context, he goes to ownership and publishes a story before the Red Sox can even do anything. It was a pretty good example of why everyone thinks Shaughnessy is a ****. 

[nicksaviking]

You can be in favor of modernizing their approach, even in favor of letting DM go, and still think this was handled poorly.

But do we really have any idea how this was actually handled? All I see as evidence are quotes from a guy who is trying to paint himself as both a hero and a victim with every word he speaks.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

That was a made up story. He caught the last out and offered the ball to Francona who told him to keep it. Months later, Shaughnessy of the Globe calls him up, gets some funny quotes about the ball (Shaughnessy: "that ball will pay for your kids future" Dougie: "Dang right, that's their college right there."  After getting those quotes and not using context, he goes to ownership and publishes a story before the Red Sox can even do anything. It was a pretty good example of why everyone thinks Shaughnessy is a ****. 

Ah, how'd I miss that? Thanks for clearing it up.

[Vanimal46]

I don't know enough about the x's and o's that played into the decision to let Doug go. I do think this situation was handled properly. For those that have worked in larger corporations, did the CEO personally stop by your desk to say you're no longer needed at this organization? Probably not. If Steil was the person Doug reported into, then there shouldn't be an issue with how this was handled. 

 

I'm always reminded of the "walking papers" bit by George Carlin:

"I never got walking papers. And believe me, I've been fired a bunch of times. You know what I got? A guy would walk over to my desk and say GET THE **** OUTTA HERE!"

[Mike Sixel]

 

There is definitely a generational divide in place here. Analyticals seem to view DM as a Teradactyl. And those who judge curve balls by the Pascual standard seem to view DM as an icon of the way managers used to be. AKA the good old days. Where you sit on whether Dougie should have gotten the boot is definitely influenced by which side of the fence you stand on. The good old days guys have to remember that metrics is here to stay and is a useful tool in analyzing players and there niche in the game. The metrics guys have to accept that there is way more involved. At least I hope so. It's going to be very hard for a laptop dressed in a Twins cap and uniform to signal for a pitching change without arms! All those numbers have to be taken into context with the situation. A spread sheet can tell you that bunting results in such and such a percentage of success vs swinging away. But someone has to parse this with that days game, their pitcher, your staff, standings, who's on deck, who's bunting, who's playing third, the score, the inning, and maybe even the weather. That ain't all gonna be on that spreadsheet. Some guys have that knack, and some don't. And you won't find that distinction on any spreadsheet either.

 

I'll just say I find this to be way too black and white and an over simplification and exaggeration of what people believe. It's not either or, it's a dial.

[gunnarthor]

 

Ah, how'd I miss that? Thanks for clearing it up.

I was living out east at the time and spending too much time on ESPN forums so I got the full detail. You can't imagine how much fans hated Shaughnessy. It's like nothing I've ever seen.

[clutterheart]

 

That was a made up story. He caught the last out and offered the ball to Francona who told him to keep it. Months later, Shaughnessy of the Globe calls him up, gets some funny quotes about the ball (Shaughnessy: "that ball will pay for your kids future" Dougie: "Dang right, that's their college right there."  After getting those quotes and not using context, he goes to ownership and publishes a story before the Red Sox can even do anything. It was a pretty good example of why everyone thinks Shaughnessy is a ****. 

 

But then when the Red Sox asked for it back he refused to give it up.  The Red Sox had to take it to court in 2005.   In the end he "donated" it to the HOF for an unknown tax benefit.  

 

If the story was just a misunderstanding as Dougie B tries to portray, it never would've went to court.  For me what this shows is Doug holds grudges and has a tendency to play the victim through the media when its serves his interest.

 

Fun ballplayer though.