Article: A Hall Of Fame Case For Johan Santana

[jmlease1]

 

I would throw Ron Guidry in that mix as well but we are still talking about shorter careers with light shining brighter.    2 Cy Young's and 4 top 4 finishes is more than the others on your list.    I think you could make the case that a few of these should be in or that a few that are in should be out.   I didn't realize Kevin Brown's case was so good.

 

Kevin Brown does have a strong case, and I'd vote for him without a problem. Brown is especially interesting since his peak came after he turned 30; he should have won a Cy in 1998, and probably should have won it in 1996 too. (and I think if he does, his case gets a lot easier)

 

Guidry is a little tougher: his peak was shorter than johan's and he actually had a longer career, while compiling a lower bWAR. His 1978 season is amazing, but he never cleared a 7 bWAR season again. Johan was the better pitcher in my mind. But Guidry certainly wouldn't be anywhere near the worst pitcher in the HoF if he ended up there some day.

[Dantes929]

 

Kevin Brown does have a strong case, and I'd vote for him without a problem. Brown is especially interesting since his peak came after he turned 30; he should have won a Cy in 1998, and probably should have won it in 1996 too. (and I think if he does, his case gets a lot easier)

 

Guidry is a little tougher: his peak was shorter than johan's and he actually had a longer career, while compiling a lower bWAR. His 1978 season is amazing, but he never cleared a 7 bWAR season again. Johan was the better pitcher in my mind. But Guidry certainly wouldn't be anywhere near the worst pitcher in the HoF if he ended up there some day.

When fans stump for Morris in the HOF I understand it but just like you think Santana was the better pitcher I think Guidry was better than Morris.   I am ok if they all get in.   Yes, 1978 was a big reason for putting him out there and is part of my star shining brighter but for not as long position.    I don't know why I got to see so many of his games that year or why I cared but he was amazing.   25-3 record which I know fans pooh pooh but these were earned.   He was 22 games over .500 on his own on a team that needed a game 163 to get into the playoffs.    30 of 35 quality starts, 9 complete game shutouts.   Every month under 3.00 ERA and only two months above a 2.00.     Fact that he was 5'11" and 160 lbs was pretty cool also.

[nicksaviking]

I'd bet Santana gets in someday on a Veteran Committee, it'll probably take his contemporaries who personally knew how good he was to vote him in.

 

Even more so than their postseason glory, I think the thing that Koufax and Puckett had that Santana didn't was a baseball-crushing sudden announcement of premature retirement. Had Santana's career abruptly and very clearly ended following the 2010 season, or even more dramatically after his no-hitter late in that season, I'd guess people would view him much more similarly to Koufax and Puckett. His retirement has just been too drawn out, he never got that sudden rush of sympathy and resentment which lingers eternal with athletes cut short in their prime.

[LeatherAntenna]

We actually didn't "have" to chase down Detroit that September. We were basically tied for the wild card spot at the start of the month, and finished up 6 games in that race..

. Don't mean to argue, and I think we are both discussing a great body of work all year long. But they did have to chase down Detroit (unless I am dreaming) they caught Detroit on the last day of the season. It helped that Detroit went 4-6 their last 10 games and lost 5 in a row at the end as well while the Twins went 6-4 in their last 10 including winning on the last day to over take Detroit. I biasedly include Santana's September of work that year to include his Oct 1 start in which the Twins lost 3-2, but Santana gave the Twins offense every chance to win leaving after 8 innings giving up just 2 runs.

[LeatherAntenna]

. Don't mean to argue, and I think we are both discussing a great body of work all year long. But they did have to chase down Detroit (unless I am dreaming) they caught Detroit on the last day of the season. It helped that Detroit went 4-6 their last 10 games and lost 5 in a row at the end as well while the Twins went 6-4 in their last 10 including winning on the last day to over take Detroit. I biasedly include Santana's September of work that year to include his Oct 1 start in which the Twins lost 3-2, but Santana gave the Twins offense every chance to win leaving after 8 innings giving up just 2 runs.

. 2006 standings CENTRAL W L PCT GB HOME ROAD RS RA DIFF STRK L10

xMinn Twins 96 66 .593 - 54-27 42-39 801 683 +118 W1 6-4

yDetroit Tigers 95 67 .586 1 46-35 49-32 822 675 +147 L5 4-6

ChiWhite Sox 90 72 .556 6 49-32 41-40 868 794 +74 L1 5-5

Cleve Indians 78 84 .481 18 44-37 34-47 870 782 +88 W4 8-2

Kan Royals 62 100 .383 34 34-47 28-53 757 971 -214 W3 4-6

 

 

[Rosterman]

You still have to look at a Jack Morris. Dominant pitcher of his decade/era. He gave up runs (like Bert did homers), but he was a stallion out there on the mound. 

 

So longevity is not always an issues, either. 

 

It's such a crazy world where the baseball writers vote for these things, especially when the terms of a baseball writer may no longer cross generations of players.

[Otto von Ballpark]

. Don't mean to argue, and I think we are both discussing a great body of work all year long. But they did have to chase down Detroit (unless I am dreaming)

They chased down Detroit in 2006, obviously, but they didn't "have" to. Had they not caught Detroit, the Twins could/would have won the wild card by a decent margin (as Detroit did, and they actually made the World Series that year).

 

That finish was more fun than it was meaningful. Basically just playoff seeding by mid-September. 2009 was the more meaningful September chase of Detroit (and the one that Detroit would regret).

Edited August 27, 2017 by spycake

[Doomtints]

I think he makes the HOF simply because I don't expect many people who were better to be up for consideration during his years of eligibility....

 

Does he deserve it? Sure, but I understand the argument against.