Article: Twins Trade Kintzler To Nationals

[Puckett34]

 

When did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UfBePUbn2Us/TSzxkV1uddI/AAAAAAAAHws/FdEhm-tS36U/s1600/remaincalm-01.jpg

[Rosterman]

 

When did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor?

You must be too young to remember that famous movie line!

 

[Mr. Brooks]

When did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor?

1978

 

http://www.whysanity.net/monos/ahouse.html

[Thrylos]

 

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but the Twins gave up on this year for maybe five guys who:

a. probably don't rank in the top 15 in their organization and

b. probably don't rank in the top 300 in the minors and 

c. likely will make little to no difference in their future?

 

That's what Littell, Enns, & Watson are, right? And given the reliever market (which we just saw for Kintzler), they certainly wouldn't have needed to give up much to add a couple of competent relievers.

 

I know it's been a tough week, but this was a mistake. I don't get why they wouldn't ride it and chance the 9% chance they hat making the playoffs. It feels like panic. What did we gain exactly for giving up?

 

With the results they have had and esp. the way they played against Boston, Houston, and the Dodgers (all teams they need to beat to win this off-season), how can they not "give up"?

 

Oh, they have to pass the Royals too.

 

[AZTwin]

Somebody tell me how to feel about the return

I think I looked up the wrong guy. The guy I saw was 24 and had a mediocre at best stat line as a relief pitcher. Thought the trade was basically for the international money and I was okay with the trade. The fact that we got a lottery ticket is good I think

[Thrylos]

 

My only disappointment is there wasn't a stronger market out there for Kintzler.

 

Realistically, why should there be a stronger marker for an aging rental with one effective pitch (sinker,) a 3.68 FIP who struck out only 5.4 per 9 innings for the season?  And in the second half, he has had a 6.00 ERA and 1.67 WHIP (even with a .280 BABIP).

 

I think that the Twins made a killing here.  Kintzler is just not that great.  In a competitive team, he is a decent 7th inning pitcher, probably a notch or two worse than Matty Guerrier in his prime.  In a competitive team, he will have the role that Belisle has for the Twins. Kintzler and the Twins lucked out by the circumstances, but there is nothing elite about him.   And I hope that the Twins do not even think about re-signing him as their closer next season.  They can do better.

[USAFChief]

 

Obvious only in that they weren't as bad as their record last year.

 

I didn't see a lot of good starting pitching talent on the FA market last season, and that's easily the biggest hole. Adding a couple of mediocre guys on 3-4 year contracts at $10M+ per does little for me. The lineup had question marks, but also had young talent that needed to get tested at the MLB level, so wait & see makes sense there. The bullpen had issues, but I'm not a fan of flinging big money on relievers. So volatile, and so easy to find quality: just look at Kintzler!

 

This season was promising in that the team wasn't awful out the gate and some of the younger players were showing flashes of their capability. They were still playing above their heads, much like last year they were playing below it.

 

These guys don't look like org filler to me: they look like prospects, and we didn't give up much for them. Ynoa turned into 2 prospects that are a bit more advanced, instead of just a lottery ticket. Kintzler wasn't likely to be back as teams still overpay "proven closers" so why not get something for him, especially with several additional relief prospects looking to be ready soon?

 

Look, if the team stands pat next offseason, then I'd question it, but they seem to have done ok here. No massive heists, but reasonable value.

All of that is fair, I just look at it differently.

 

All but the bolded part, that is.

 

I see this often, and it just boggles my mind.  If quality relievers are so easy to find, we must have the worst string of GMs in the history of baseball.  And one look at the trade deadline should tell you that isn't true...virtually every team in contention is looking for pen help.

 

In actuality, quality relievers are very difficult to find.  Highly underrated, too.  If it was my money, and I was forced to scrimp somewhere to spend elsewhere, the last place I'd try to limp by is the bullpen.  I can find a corner OFer relatively easily, and by perhaps platooning, get decent production with little risk.

But when my bullpen is littered with question marks, I'm going to lose lots of games I should have won.  Lots.  Guar-own-teed.

 

 

[70charger]

 

When did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor?

 

Forget it, he's rolling.

[drivlikejehu]

The Twins didn't enter this past off-season with 'a few holes,' they entered it with no pitching staff and issues with some position players as well. They had no realistic chance to build a contender through a combination of free agency and trades. The fact that they over-performed early in the year doesn't change the fact that it's a subpar team that lacks the core to be a contender . . . no amount of complimentary pieces would have changed that.

[luckylager]

 

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but the Twins gave up on this year for maybe five guys who:

a. probably don't rank in the top 15 in their organization and

b. probably don't rank in the top 300 in the minors and 

c. likely will make little to no difference in their future?

 

That's what Littell, Enns, & Watson are, right? And given the reliever market (which we just saw for Kintzler), they certainly wouldn't have needed to give up much to add a couple of competent relievers.

 

I know it's been a tough week, but this was a mistake. I don't get why they wouldn't ride it and chance the 9% chance they hat making the playoffs. It feels like panic. What did we gain exactly for giving up?

Long time listener, first time caller, Mr Bonnes.  Is there any team in history that has been in the position the Twins are now and "won it all"?  And then to say that none of the prospects obtained in these deals will make a difference in their future?  I will put my money on at least a couple of the new guys making a dent in the future.  The Twins are not a couple of relievers away from a championship. They need at least three dependable starters and the same amount of relief pitching. Beefing up for the future is the right thing to do at this point. 

[Thrylos]

 

 

 

 If quality relievers are so easy to find, we must have the worst string of GMs in the history of baseball.

 

Do you doubt the second part?  

Do not go far, just look at what Liam Hendriks, Anthony Swarzak, Brian Duensing, and Jeff Manship did after they left for nothing...  And I should not even mention Pat Neshek and the way he was treated by the front office.

[sploorp]

 

I just wanted them to go one or the other, John. I would have loved to have gotten Gray somehow, and another RP, but that was never in the cards, I don't think. 

 

I think they got some lottery tickets, which seems like a reasonable return, but yes, none of these guys are TOP prospects.

Most of the guys we got were ranked in the top twenty of their organizations and were having decent seasons.  Littell, who slotted in at #22 in the Yankees organization, slotted in between Thorpe and Wade at #16 for the Twins.  Most will probably move up next time MLB ranks the prospects.

[Wyorev]

I like Bonnes take on this, and I respectfully disagree. I think the 9% chance is fast approaching the 1 in 20 area. But John has me thinking

[caninatl04]

Or is it 2018 Int'l money?

I asked the same question-- apparently its 2017 money and (also apparently) there are a couple of 15 year olds (yes, 15 year olds) who will soon turn 16 that the Twins are interested in.

[caninatl04]

When did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor?

The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor at about the 70 minute mark of the movie "Animal House." Its a famous John Belushi quote.

[nicksaviking]

This front office made their bed in March. Everyone knew the rotation and bullpen in place weren't capable of making the playoffs and any reasonable mind could see there were too many holes to fix in season to make them worthy.

 

And that speaks nothing of a lineup that can't adjust when the other team's bullpen enters the game. This was always a trial and error evaluation year.

 

Glass half full: the Twins made it fun to watch for four months.

 

Glass half empty: they teased us with unsustainable hope for four months.

 

Frankly, if they start calling up some of the young pitchers, I'm going to enjoy watching even if they get their clocks cleaned.

[caninatl04]

The current period. Twins actually have two decent prospects they are going to sign once they turn 16. This gives them some extra money to work with in the interim.

Thanks. Any articles or links on who these two might be?

[sploorp]

I'm not saying anything one way or the other, I'm just curious: what does the team do for a bullpen now?  Kintsler was one of the few bright spots in an otherwise horrendous pen.  Who do they bring up?  Who comes up in September?  What are their chances?

[Riverbrian]

In my strange opinion... I look at it this way. 

 

The Bullpen hasn't been very good with Kintzler. 

 

With Kintzler now gone...

 

The Bullpen still won't be very good. 

 

I'd like to see the Twins starting getting looks at the kids now. 

[twinssouth]

I'm not saying anything one way or the other, I'm just curious: what does the team do for a bullpen now?  Kintsler was one of the few bright spots in an otherwise horrendous pen.  Who do they bring up?  Who comes up in September?  What are their chances?

 

 

Rhett Bollinger, MLB, thinks Twins will move Rogers up to closer role which should be rather interesting.

[Mike Sixel]

The Twins didn't enter this past off-season with 'a few holes,' they entered it with no pitching staff and issues with some position players as well. They had no realistic chance to build a contender through a combination of free agency and trades. The fact that they over-performed early in the year doesn't change the fact that it's a subpar team that lacks the core to be a contender . . . no amount of complimentary pieces would have changed that.

So, the answer is don't fill any pitching holes? This attitude that if you can't fix the whole thing, you shouldn't fix one hole is odd to me.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Mike Sixel

[ashbury]

Frankly, if they start calling up some of the young pitchers, I'm going to enjoy watching even if they get their clocks cleaned.

Tucking away this quote for reference later on...

 

Competing for a wild card was always a will o' the wisp in my book. These deadline moves are appropriate, in that same book.

 

The Garcia trades were educational, in that the fungibility of rental talent should be made use of more often. Though, there is probably a limit as to how early the Braves could have been pushed to trade him for just one far-away prospect.

[Winston Smith]

The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor at about the 70 minute mark of the movie "Animal House." Its a famous John Belushi quote.

 

The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor at about the 70 minute mark of the movie "Animal House." Its a famous John Belushi quote.

 

You expect me to remember something that happened in the 70's?

[h2oface]

High A prospect that is already pitching to an inning eater mid 4 ERA?? At least Meyer was AA. Washington really needed relievers. I can't believe that this is all the Twins could get. All future, no now. But Kintzler will be a better set up or 7th inning of a 7-8-9 closing team. I just think they didn't get much. But being a Twins' fan, I have felt that they have since the A.J. Pierzynski for Nathan,Liriano,Bonser trade.

Edited July 31, 2017 by h2oface

[drivlikejehu]

 

So, the answer is don't fill any pitching holes? This attitude that if you can't fix the whole thing, you shouldn't fix one hole is odd to me.

 

You don't take over a 103-loss team and think "now I need to overpay for some mediocre veterans." No front office in baseball would ever think that way. Starting pitcher options were few and the better relievers get multi-year deals, which didn't really make sense at that point.

 

I don't disagree that they could have signed one or two more relievers on one-year deals, but that would have had no real impact on the team's ability to contend in 2017 or any future year. 

[h2oface]

 

Probably a better plan than "DRAFT ALL RELIEVERS!"

 

And/Or.... convert relievers to starters............

[h2oface]

This doesn't change much. Now instead of needing more than 5 runs to win games, they just need more that 6.... maybe 7. 

[twinstalker]

There are a number of game theory moves being made here that the old regime seemed not to be adept at.  Thus far, the general impression I get is that these trades not only are decent in and of themselves but help to better situate the Twins system.

 

Foremost, if you thought the Twins were anything but smoke and mirrors, and this recent slide combined with CLE and KC going on terrors didn't convince you 2017 is over, well, I can't help you.  Nobody can.  You're a hopeless romantic, maybe with little interest or grasp of the process it takes to create a winning organization if you think these trades seem non-worthwhile.

 

Over the past few days the Twins have added money to sign some Int'l guys, two guys who might help soon in relief and two guys who have a chance to be a part of future rotations (with a downside of relief hopefuls) at the expense of Huoscar Ynoa and $4 mil that was only going into the Pohlad pockets.  The only real lottery ticket in this mess is Ynoa, and the Twins gave him up because lottery tickets don't pay off.  TJS Burdi is a better bet than Ynoa.

 

The two potential starters do not have to go on the 40 man this winter, and given that they'll be 8-15 on the Twins list at A+ and AA to start 2018, that's huge.  These are the moves that other teams make that we never notice and suddenly we're asking where Corey Kluber came from.

 

The new regime understands what to look for, pitching-wise, while we know Terry Ryan had very little competence in this area in the last decade plus.  If you're going to be upset that the Twins gave something up toward this end, be upset about the lottery ticket Ynoa, not Kintzler, an ex-Twin either now or in a number of weeks.  But keep in mind I've lost a lot of lottery tickets and never worried I couldn't find them to check the numbers.  

 

Littel isn't a lottery ticket, he's a good gamble.  He has a good chance to pay off.  As does Watson.  The relievers Moya and Enns will have to go on the 40-man, one of them in place of the useless JRM, but that's okay.  They're not important in or of themselves but represent a larger group of players with a real chance to be helpful, and they allow the Twins to fire more bullets in the offseason, if needed.

 

As for Dozier and Santana, both appear more helpful to winning and providing veteran leadership than they are at having prospect value.  Ride them out unless it makes sense to take an offer.

 

 

[Squirrel]

In my strange opinion... I look at it this way. 

 

The Bullpen hasn't been very good with Kintzler. 

 

With Kintzler now gone...

 

The Bullpen is downright awful.

 

I'd like to see the Twins starting getting looks at the kids now.

 

Ftfy

[Squirrel]

You expect me to remember something that happened in the 70's?

Better than expecting me to remember something I never saw to begin with.