EliminaTwins

[twinsnorth49]

 

  On 7/20/2017 at 1:50 AM, kab21 said:

I think the site has been overwhelmingly negative despite a winning season so far and contending for a playoff spot. 

For example we have been reading for two months that the Twins shouldn't trade any prospects (a majority of the site) for any help. Not even guys in the org's 20+ prospects for a competent starting pitcher.

Nobody wants to sell the farm for a rental but at some point this team has to bring in a competent starting pitcher and bullpen arm. The Twins are 27th in team ERA despite having two very good starters and two very good reliever. Getting a 6+ ERA from two rotation spots and multiple spots in the bullpen. Getting anyone decent is a huge upgrade over that.

Just curious, how does your example qualify as "overwhelmingly negative"?

 

I think this whole negativity thing is grossly exaggerated, it also suggests people don't have a right to their opinions. Instead of framing certain groups as too negative or too Pollyanna, why not just present an argument based on what facts you think best support your point of view. 

 

Glancing at the first page of threads, I only see the Pressly one as a thread that started with a negative bent. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 7/20/2017 at 9:16 PM, Dozier's Glorious Hair said:

Well, we could talk about Rosario adding 62 points to his OPS this season. We could talk about him walking more, striking out less, and just generally looking more like a legitimate MLB hitter.

 

We could talk about the potential of Joe Mauer and Byron Buxton winning Gold Gloves this season.

 

We could talk about whether or not Ervin Santana can get into the AL Cy Young conversation if he finishes the season strong.

 

We could talk about Jose Berrios establishing himself as a top-of-the-rotation starter after struggling so badly his rookie year.

 

We could talk about where this team would be right now were it not for Brandon Kintzler and Taylor Rogers.

 

We could talk about Miguel Sano becoming that 40 HR/120 RBI guy we all hoped he could be. We could talk about where he fits in the AL MVP conversation, particularly if he carries the team into the postseason.

 

We could about Max Kepler's progress. We could talk about what his ceiling is. We could talk about his defense. We could talk about that freakin' swing.

 

We could talk about what a nice find Robbie Grossman turned out to be.

 

...or we could just talk about the bad stuff.

 

This is the bottom line for me, and it's cool if we disagree on this: The team simply isn't bad enough to warrant so much negativity. Just my opinion. 

 

all of those are being talked about. All of them.

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

  On 7/20/2017 at 9:34 PM, Mike Sixel said:

all of those are being talked about. All of them.

 

Not in any significant way, and certainly not in a way that can compete with the heavily negative discussions.

 

I know you won't agree with that. That's fair enough. I just wanted to say my piece on this particular subject.

[Jham]

  On 7/20/2017 at 6:01 AM, KirbyDome89 said:

Using a W-L record to measure pitching performance is thrown around as a joke on this site. I'm not sure why the overall team record is immune from same breakdown and scrutiny.

 

And LOL at making negative comments about disliking the negativity of others. Hilarious....

Last time I checked, they still use win/loss record to determine playoff participants. Not base runs, pythag, or team war. That may have something to do with it.

 

I like the conflicting opinions. Makes things interesting. Plus both sides can be right. Eg,torii Hunter. "He's old and his numbers are declining" "He's a veteran holding the young guys accountable and providing leadership." Both were right.

[Pardon My Dinger]

Somewhere, far off in the distance, the Negativity Police awakens from a long, deep sleep. His heart is heart pounding, and he feels a cold sweat on his stubborn, furrowed brow. His right index finger uncrooks into a steady wag.

 

There is a faintly familiar sensation of duty...but for what...and for when?

[Otto von Ballpark]

While we're on the subject, Dozier's hair hasn't looked particularly glorious for awhile.

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

  On 7/20/2017 at 10:36 PM, spycake said:

While we're on the subject, Dozier's hair hasn't looked particularly glorious for awhile.

 

Now you've gone too far.

[KirbyDome89]

 

  On 7/20/2017 at 10:15 PM, Jham said:

Last time I checked, they still use win/loss record to determine playoff participants. Not base runs, pythag, or team war. That may have something to do with it.

I like the conflicting opinions. Makes things interesting. Plus both sides can be right. Eg,torii Hunter. "He's old and his numbers are declining" "He's a veteran holding the young guys accountable and providing leadership." Both were right. 

So they can be used to gauge every team's performance except the Twins? I understand some teams will overperform, some will underperform, and some will hit the mark exactly, but the Twins have overperformed at a ridiculous rate in some of those categories. Certainly some of that can be attributed to young players that weren't accounted for, but there is more to it than just that, and the "more to it," part is what scares me. You don't have to look very far beyond an average offense and horrible pitching staff to see why there is skepticism about playoff odds for the rest of the season. Those metrics reflect that view. "Their record is exactly who they are," sounds fun to say, but it just isn't true. To me, being dismissive of the bleak statistical outlook and ignoring the very apparent weakness the team has because their record is barely above .500 feels like being a prisoner to the moment. 

 

I agree, I enjoy the back and forth regarding differing opinions. Ignoring the obvious hypocrisy of using a thread to post negative comments about the amount of negativity on the site, the issue I had was the failure to realize that just as some may find criticism "tiresome," over the top optimism is just as grating. 

[DJSim22]

 

  On 7/20/2017 at 4:37 AM, Deduno Abides said:

I agree that it's overstated and he's had some good games, but he's been essentially replacement level and does nothing for the future. It would be fantastic to get something for him in a trade, and I suspect that's been the long term plan, but the return will likely be much less than what was hoped for in March.

 

I have no disagreement with what you've written.  While I did copy your comments, I really was meaning to refer to those who say he's garage or should be DFA'd immediately.  To me that's a bit ridiculous.

[Craig Arko]

In the end perhaps it comes down to; is this fun?

 

If it is, keep on keeping on. If it's not, there are other things to do.

 

Life's kinda too short not to have some fun with it.

[Han Joelo]

I love loving, but I hate hating.

 

In all honesty, TD is an excellent site where people express genuinely different opinions, opinions that can anger and frustrate those who don't always agree.  And yet, at the end of the day we get over it.  I have no idea how I rate volume wise as a "liker," but I go out of my way to make sure I like or comment on a post I DO agree with when it comes from someone I frequently DON'T agree with.  I suspect many others do something similar.  It is a sign of respect, hopefully.  The point being, this is how productive discourse occurs amongst mature adults, even when it is just about baseball.

 

Maybe the folks in Washington DC should come visit TD to see how it is supposed to work.  Somebody (Einstein?  Internet Hoax-Man) once said that prohibition would be the death of democracy, because there would be no public houses where people of differing views could gather to express, with the edge off, viewpoints that differ.  TD is that baseball public house.

 

This thread is like a meta-example of all that, in a way.  You can feel free to express your positive feelings about negativity, as well as your negative feelings about negativity, which is positively okay too.

[USAFChief]

  On 7/21/2017 at 12:56 AM, KirbyDome89 said:

So they can be used to gauge every team's performance except the Twins? I understand some teams will overperform, some will underperform, and some will hit the mark exactly, but the Twins have overperformed at a ridiculous rate in some of those categories. Certainly some of that can be attributed to young players that weren't accounted for, but there is more to it than just that, and the "more to it," part is what scares me. You don't have to look very far beyond an average offense and horrible pitching staff to see why there is skepticism about playoff odds for the rest of the season. Those metrics reflect that view. "Their record is exactly who they are," sounds fun to say, but it just isn't true. To me, being dismissive of the bleak statistical outlook and ignoring the very apparent weakness the team has because their record is barely above .500 feels like being a prisoner to the moment.

 

I agree, I enjoy the back and forth regarding differing opinions. Ignoring the obvious hypocrisy of using a thread to post negative comments about the amount of negativity on the site, the issue I had was the failure to realize that just as some may find criticism "tiresome," over the top optimism is just as grating.

 

The thing is, though, here they are. The wins are in the bank. They dont get their record reset to what it "should" be. Nor does Cleveland get a few extra W's tacked on because they "should" be better.

 

And, Just because they have a negative run differential today doesn't mean they will have one for the remainder of the season,etither. Particularly if they shore up the pitching staff at least a little.

 

Their run differential, in other words, don't necessarily mean diddly.

[Deduno Abides]

As the OP, this thread wasn't about "negativity = bad." It's about the high volume of threads and posts saying "DFA him," "Send him to Rochester now" and "Why is he even on the team?" I can't give a measurement of how much is too much, but when 2/3 of the players on a winning and developing team are the subjects of such posts, the site is probably in the zone of too much. Vanimal said it's just a sign of how many people post on TD, and that makes sense, and there are valid grounds for some of the negativity, as Mike has suggested, but calling to get rid of players, especially young players, without considering how they would be replaced, in the recent quantities, seems more like Vikings chat.

[KirbyDome89]

 

  On 7/21/2017 at 3:35 AM, USAFChief said:

The thing is, though, here they are. The wins are in the bank. They dont get their record reset to what it "should" be. Nor does Cleveland get a few extra W's tacked on because they "should" be better.

And, Just because they have a negative run differential today doesn't mean they will have one for the remainder of the season,etither. Particularly if they shore up the pitching staff at least a little.

Their run differential, in other words, don't necessarily mean diddly.

Of course they don't, the 15' Twins are a prime example of banking wins. This team has surpassed my expectations so far this season, and I'm a believer in a good amount of what we've seen. 

 

True, it's unlikely to be static the remainder of the season, but I could just as easily argue it could get worse as the innings begin to pile up. The point wasn't just about run differential though. They're at or near the bottom of almost every team pitching statistic. Kyle Gibson and a soon to be retired (?) Bartolo Colon make up 2/5 of the starting rotation right now and the bullpen needs serious help too. Jaime Garcia can't exactly hurt at this point, but I'm not sure how much help he'll be either. 

[twinsnorth49]

  On 7/21/2017 at 3:45 AM, Deduno Abides said:

As the OP, this thread wasn't about "negativity = bad." It's about the high volume of threads and posts saying "DFA him," "Send him to Rochester now" and "Why is he even on the team?" I can't give a measurement of how much is too much, but when 2/3 of the players on a winning and developing team are the subjects of such posts, the site is probably in the zone of too much. Vanimal said it's just a sign of how many people post on TD, and that makes sense, and there are valid grounds for some of the negativity, as Mike has suggested, but calling to get rid of players, especially young players, without considering how they would be replaced, in the recent quantities, seems more like Vikings chat.

No disrespect Deduno, I like you and what you contribute to the site, but this whole people want 2/3rds of the roster DFA'd and everything is overwhelmingly negative is a bit of hyperbole.

 

I just see discussion, people have different ideas on things, that's about all. I think that's what makes the site interesting.

[Craig Arko]

  On 7/21/2017 at 4:41 AM, twinsnorth49 said:

No disrespect Deduno, I like you and what you contribute to the site, but this whole people want 2/3rds of the roster DFA'd and everything is overwhelmingly negative is a bit of hyperbole.

I just see discussion, people have different ideas on things, that's about all. I think that's what makes the site interesting.

For the most part, yes. Under threat of waterboarding I can think of a few notable counterexamples, of course.

[laloesch]

 

  On 7/21/2017 at 1:59 AM, Craig Arko said:

In the end perhaps it comes down to; is this fun?

If it is, keep on keeping on. If it's not, there are other things to do.

Life's kinda too short not to have some fun with it.

 

Fantastic post.  Life is way way way too short to be miserable all the time and not enjoy the simple things.

[laloesch]

 

  On 7/21/2017 at 12:21 PM, laloesch said:

Fantastic post.  Life is way way way too short to be miserable all the time and not enjoy the simple things.

 

I would add too that at the end of the day when you have passed on and your body returned to the earth and become ash and dust no-one will remember beyond a generation whether you were naughty or nice, mean or kind (unless you did something totally awesome or horrible).  What's truly important is to live the fullest here and now and be happy.

[whydidnt]

 

  On 7/21/2017 at 12:21 PM, laloesch said:

Fantastic post.  Life is way way way too short to be miserable all the time and not enjoy the simple things.

Right, but an important part of that is accepting that others may have different ways of "enjoying" life. Some might consider it fun to criticize a team they follow, while others think that's a waste of energy and anything but fun. The point is we don't get to decide what each other thinks is fun, so why get worked up about it?

[Craig Arko]

 

  On 7/21/2017 at 6:16 PM, whydidnt said:

Right, but an important part of that is accepting that others may have different ways of "enjoying" life. Some might consider it fun to criticize a team they follow, while others think that's a waste of energy and anything but fun. The point is we don't get to decide what each other thinks is fun, so why get worked up about it?

Indeed. I say read beer and drink books. Or something like that.