Article: Twins 6, Yankees 1: Berrios, Sano Lift Twins to Series Victory

[Don Walcott]

 

And what does moving the infield in have to do with Grossman and his fielding not being indicative and not mattering? At all? One is strategy/tactics, one is a sloppy/bad play because "it wasn't important to give his best" at that time, at least I think that is your contention.

 

I also have no idea how this devolved into whether or not going deep in a game is helpful to the team. No idea.

You said pitching to the score was disproved by years of analysis.  That was the only sentence I was addressing in my post, as indicated in the first sentence of my post.

[Don Walcott]

I think context matters for all aspects of the game. We now measure this for leverage situations or WPA for pitching and hitting. The point is the same applies to fielding.  If the game is tied in the 9th and Buxton crashes into the fence to make the play, it's worth it for him to make that play. If we're winning by 10 in the 9th, I'd rather Buxton not crash into the fence to make the play.

 

Obviously, errors happen. I don't think players consciously try to commit errors, although sometimes a game situation may make them more prone to do so. However, some errors are simply more costly than others, and there should be some acknowledgment of this fact. It doesn't make Grossman any better in the field that we all know he is, but that error had no effect on the outcome of the game, and given the score, there was little chance of it affecting the game. However, in a purely statistical way, it's treated exactly like Polanco's error, which was much more costly.

[gocgo]

Well, here we are a half game out of first and a half game out of the wild card.  Many of the pundits have said "Let's see where they are after facing the Astros, Yankees, and Dodgers in July.  So far, so good.  I'd love to stick it to the Tigers this weekend before the west coast road trip.  IF we come out of July and we are within 3 games of the lead/wildcard, I like our chances.  August schedule isn't bad including 8 vs the pale hose while Cleveland's schedule for August looks nasty with 13 of their games against Boston and NY.

[ThejacKmp]

 

"we" don't, actually, when assessing how good a player is.

 

"in fairness" implied that it wasn't important to assessing if he is a good player or not, imo. Maybe I read that wrong. What did "in fairness" mean?

 

And yes, I very much am bothered by "another gear" in that situation, since you are pretty much saying he didn't care/try all that much there, compared to other times.

 

Also, "pitch to the score"? Years of analysis has been done on that, because that was Morris' point....and the data is clear, it's not really true.

 

I'm not bad at my job, I do it well most of the time. But if something crazy happens and we have a deadline, I always have another gear that I can hit. I can't live in that gear but I can hit it for awhile. I imagine that's true of most people. It's definitely a thing in sports - how many times have you heard that the NFL playoffs are faster, guys hit harder etc. Or that NBA basketball has wrinkles no regular season game has. There's a reason that young teams sometimes have trouble adjusting. We even see it with the Twins - a criticism of Buxton is that he plays all out too often and is more prone to injury. He's the exception rather than the rule.

 

Just because something doesn't show up in data doesn't mean it's not there. I think Morris's point (self-serving as it may have been as he argued for the HOF) is valid and is proof that this exists. I've also heard other players talk about it. It hits common sense too - when you're up 9-0, you throw a guy a fastball at 3-2 because a walk is no good. You want the ball in play at that point.

 

I was lazy with the we but my point is that TD is a place that is stat-friendly. I've heard many people, yourself included, citing context when talking about stats. I'm just saying that "the collective we at TD" are often citing context in hitting but not in fielding. And we should be. Robbie Grossman's error was pretty meaningless and certainly isn't a resounding reason to have a subpar bat in the lineup.

[ThejacKmp]

 

I think a good comparison here is a QB that heaves the ball towards the end zone from his own 40 yard line with 1 second left in the half, resulting in an interception in the end zone. It's clearly a throw he wouldn't make under other circumstances, and while it goes down as an interception, it doesn't really impact his team's chances to win.

 

That one has always bothered me. As have ones where the ball bounces off of the receivers hands. They should split INTs into "QB fault" and "freak INT". Anything iffy goes to QB Fault.

[ThejacKmp]

 

It's clear the OP thinks he wasn't trying fully, based on his words. That's not acceptable.

 

Nope. Don't put words in my mouth. Also read them before you say "based on his words." I never came close to saying that, you inferred it because it fit your argument.

 

All I ever said was that he wasn't going at top gear. That's not the same thing as not trying fully. Not trying is willful laziness, Grossman was just treating the game in its proper context. He wasn't going all out because he shouldn't be, the Twins don't need a risky all out play.

[ThejacKmp]

 

 

And what does moving the infield in have to do with Grossman and his fielding not being indicative and not mattering? At all? One is strategy/tactics, one is a sloppy/bad play because "it wasn't important to give his best" at that time, at least I think that is your contention.

 

I also have no idea how this devolved into whether or not going deep in a game is helpful to the team. No idea.

 
Again, those are your words. No one says it wasn't important to give his best, just that the context of the situation matters in regards to going all out. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

I'm not bad at my job, I do it well most of the time. But if something crazy happens and we have a deadline, I always have another gear that I can hit. I can't live in that gear but I can hit it for awhile. I imagine that's true of most people. It's definitely a thing in sports - how many times have you heard that the NFL playoffs are faster, guys hit harder etc. Or that NBA basketball has wrinkles no regular season game has. There's a reason that young teams sometimes have trouble adjusting. We even see it with the Twins - a criticism of Buxton is that he plays all out too often and is more prone to injury. He's the exception rather than the rule.

 

Just because something doesn't show up in data doesn't mean it's not there. I think Morris's point (self-serving as it may have been as he argued for the HOF) is valid and is proof that this exists. I've also heard other players talk about it. It hits common sense too - when you're up 9-0, you throw a guy a fastball at 3-2 because a walk is no good. You want the ball in play at that point.

 

I was lazy with the we but my point is that TD is a place that is stat-friendly. I've heard many people, yourself included, citing context when talking about stats. I'm just saying that "the collective we at TD" are often citing context in hitting but not in fielding. And we should be. Robbie Grossman's error was pretty meaningless and certainly isn't a resounding reason to have a subpar bat in the lineup.

 

you know, that's all fair. I think I was just stuck on the "in fairness" part, and then we got all wrapped up in a conversation I'm sure most everyone else is already bored with! sorry about that.

[twinsnorth49]

 

"we" don't, actually, when assessing how good a player is.

 

"in fairness" implied that it wasn't important to assessing if he is a good player or not, imo. Maybe I read that wrong. What did "in fairness" mean?

 

And yes, I very much am bothered by "another gear" in that situation, since you are pretty much saying he didn't care/try all that much there, compared to other times.

 

Also, "pitch to the score"? Years of analysis has been done on that, because that was Morris' point....and the data is clear, it's not really true.

Score effect is real, in all sports. I don't think it has anything to do with trying but when a team is well up on another,  it's not that much of a stretch to say intensity drops in certain situations which lead to things that likely don't happen in a closer game. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Score effect is real, in all sports. I don't think it has anything to do with trying but when a team is well up on another,  it's not that much of a stretch to say intensity drops in certain situations which lead to things that likely don't happen in a closer game. 

 

1. sorry to anyone that is bored.

2. we lost sight of a good win.

3. this might be a really interesting thing for FG or someone to look into, actually. How does fielding change in "blowouts" if at all. I'd be interested in that study.

[twinsnorth49]

 

1. sorry to anyone that is bored.

2. we lost sight of a good win.

3. this might be a really interesting thing for FG or someone to look into, actually. How does fielding change in "blowouts" if at all. I'd be interested in that study.

Sometimes things are grey.