An Upside Down World

[Doomtints]

[Mr. Brooks]

Does anyone doubt that if it was brown people in turbans killing our schoolchildren, we'd have tried to do something about it by now?

 

How many trillions of dollars have been spent to date in response of 9/11? Have we matched the number of deaths yet, from school shootings to 9/11?

[Mike Sixel]

If only there were less doors in schools.....that's what the TX LT Governor is saying....

 

Imagine busloads of children getting to a school at the same time, and all trying to get in one door. They'd be sitting ducks....

 

[Squirrel]

If only there were less doors in schools.....that's what the TX LT Governor is saying....

 

Imagine busloads of children getting to a school at the same time, and all trying to get in one door. They'd be sitting ducks....

We had a couple of sessions at work ‘What to do in the event of’ and the first thing they said to do was run away if you could. Having fewer doors is the antithesis of what experts say to do.

[Badsmerf]

I listened to faux news on xm today for a little while. There is a large segment of people that want to militarize our schools. Complete with lock down everything and soldiers. This is absolutely beyond insanity.

[ashbury]

I listened to faux news on xm today for a little while. There is a large segment of people that want to militarize our schools.

Makes sense. Second Amendment is all about militarizing the populace.

[TheLeviathan]

 

If only there were less doors in schools.....that's what the TX LT Governor is saying....

 

Imagine busloads of children getting to a school at the same time, and all trying to get in one door. They'd be sitting ducks....

 

Don't forget they also want to run everyone through metal detectors too.  Metal detectors which I'm sure will be easily acquired with the hordes of money schools are sitting on for frivolous spending. 

 

This story also doesn't fit the narrative about "warning signs".  That narrative has been false, of course, but this is yet another example.  

 

I know it isn't popular to say, but we're past any one solution working.  We're going to have to do a host of things knowing there are no guarantees and we are likely to see repeats for awhile before the sum total of our responses start to make a difference.  We can't wait for the magical "right solution", but let's also be honest that one probably doesn't exist.

[Mr. Brooks]

I agree Levi, that it's going to take a combination of many actions to fix this.

 

I'm happy to see Houston's police chief come out in favor of one measure that I've always thought should be enacted. That being that gun owners who don't secure their weapons, should be held criminally liable if those weapons are used in a crime.

 

This is at least the second mass shooting in which the guns were acquired from a family member who owned them legally.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I agree Levi, that it's going to take a combination of many actions to fix this.

I'm happy to see Houston's police chief come out in favor of one measure that I've always thought should be enacted. That being that gun owners who don't secure their weapons, should be held criminally liable if those weapons are used in a crime.

This is at least the second mass shooting in which the guns were acquired from a family member who owned them legally.

 

I'm for pretty strict gun control.  However, I don't think even strict gun control is going to stop the next event like this.  I worry if we prop up that solution as being the "right solution" that the blow-back is going to make future gun control even more difficult to pass.

 

I think it'd be wise to take a true bi-partisan approach.  Be willing to enact ideas from the NRA along with gun control.

[Vanimal46]

BOLD statement: How about we try SOMETHING... This is the result of status quo and nothing will change until we try something different.

[D. Hocking]

 

We had a couple of sessions at work ‘What to do in the event of’ and the first thing they said to do was run away if you could. Having fewer doors is the antithesis of what experts say to do.

 

I did see a tweet in response to this saying that Fire Departments love when there are limited exits to large and heavily populated buildings.  

 

I see Oliver North blamed it on Ritalin.  How does he even have a career or considered a serious voice on anything?

 

 

[Mr. Brooks]

I did see a tweet in response to this saying that Fire Departments love when there are limited exits to large and heavily populated buildings.

 

I see Oliver North blamed it on Ritalin. How does he even have a career or considered a serious voice on anything?

Yeah the NRA can never, with a straight face, claim they are for keeping guns in law abiding citizens hands, when they choose their public face to be a guy busted selling guns to drug cartels.

Their agenda is purely to allow gun manufacturers to make as much profit as possible. The average joe with a hunting rifle that thinks the NRA represents him is being hoodwinked.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Yeah the NRA can never, with a straight face, claim they are for keeping guns in law abiding citizens hands, when they choose their public face to be a guy busted selling guns to drug cartels.
Their agenda is purely to allow gun manufacturers to make as much profit as possible. The average joe with a hunting rifle that thinks the NRA represents him is being hoodwinked.

 

we're all being hoodwinked by someone....at least there are days I feel this way. Mostly I don't anymore...mostly.

[Mr. Brooks]

we're all being hoodwinked by someone....at least there are days I feel this way. Mostly I don't anymore...mostly.

Oh, most definitely. We're all being hoodwinked, daily, by a lot of people.

[Vanimal46]

One thing different I heard today from the same old argument is charging the parents for their kids' crime. I'm not a great criminal justice mind but charging them for not properly containing their weapons, making it easy for their children to access it.

 

Maybe if they're on the hook for these tragic events, parents will start parenting again.

[Squirrel]

One thing different I heard today from the same old argument is charging the parents for their kids' crime. I'm not a great criminal justice mind but charging them for not properly containing their weapons, making it easy for their children to access it.

 

Maybe if they're on the hook for these tragic events, parents will start parenting again.

Parents will start parenting again? Sounds pretty close to blaming parents for these events rather than the guns themselves.

[Vanimal46]

Parents will start parenting again? Sounds pretty close to blaming parents for these events rather than the guns themselves.

There's plenty of blame to go around. The guns, ease of access to get guns, organizations that want to keep the status quo, and parents...

 

Yes, I do believe parents have a responsibility for their kids and keep firearms in a locked safe. We keep hearing the same back story every school shooting... Kid is quiet, keeps to themselves, and now takes an unhealthy measure on classmates that they were either bullied by or didn't like.

 

The Santa Fe, TX shooter claimed to start his shooting plan because he was embarrassed by a girl he liked. This is an upside down world, truly, if kids immediately think about shooting people they were embarrassed by.

[TheLeviathan]

I can't imagine the NRA will stand for letting gun owners get charged for crimes they didn't commit themselves.

 

It'll never happen.  (The right-wing came out with this talking point first, I bet they shut that down real quick once they realize the implications)

 

I'm also not sure it should.  That's a fuzzy line to start walking.

[Squirrel]

I can't imagine the NRA will stand for letting gun owners get charged for crimes they didn't commit themselves.

 

It'll never happen.  (The right-wing came out with this talking point first, I bet they shut that down real quick once they realize the implications)

 

I'm also not sure it should.  That's a fuzzy line to start walking.

Maybe a compromise would be ... if you can’t keep your guns out of the wrong hands, you have your right to own them suspended for a length of time tbd based on the severity of the crime committed by those guns. An exception would be a known and reported theft. But the NRA wouldn’t go for that, either.

[Vanimal46]

I can't imagine the NRA will stand for letting gun owners get charged for crimes they didn't commit themselves.

 

It'll never happen. (The right-wing came out with this talking point first, I bet they shut that down real quick once they realize the implications)

 

I'm also not sure it should. That's a fuzzy line to start walking.

A fuzzy line for sure. But someone was responsible for providing firearms to minors. Most of the time it's been parents that don't keep their firearms locked in a safe. Or the kids know the code...

[Mr. Brooks]

There's plenty of blame to go around. The guns, ease of access to get guns, organizations that want to keep the status quo, and parents...

 

Yes, I do believe parents have a responsibility for their kids and keep firearms in a locked safe. We keep hearing the same back story every school shooting... Kid is quiet, keeps to themselves, and now takes an unhealthy measure on classmates that they were either bullied by or didn't like.

 

The Santa Fe, TX shooter claimed to start his shooting plan because he was embarrassed by a girl he liked. This is an upside down world, truly, if kids immediately think about shooting people they were embarrassed by.

And how are we to decide if a lack of parenting had anything to do with a person's crime?

Do we just automatically charge parents when their children commit a crime?

Sometimes people have perfectly normal upbringings, and still commit horrible crimes.

I can certainly see some level of parental responsibility if a 3 year old is acting out, but as that child ages, they grow more and more capable of making independent decisions, that often times (not always) have very little to do with how they were parented.

When does that liability stop? If a 25 year old does this, do we charge the parents? What about someone a day shy of 18? Is that person's parents really more at fault than someone who turned 18 last week?

No two minds are psychologically identical. The type of parenting that works for one child, might have the opposite of the desired effect on another child.

 

At some point, these children reach a stage of development where they are capable of making decisions independently of anything they've ever been taught.

 

And I'm not saying parenting isn't part of the problem. I just don't think it's correct to assume that these crimes are always, or even often the result of a level of parenting that could even remotely rise to a criminally negligent level.

If there are specific, and provable things that the parents are allowing to happen? Sure. We already do that. If you fail to ensure that your child isn't truant, you can be charged with a crime.

More specific to this issue, I wholeheartedly think that if parents don't secure their weapons, they should be liable. If parents know, or reasonably should know that their child is mentally ill, and don't provide treatment for them, they should be charged. We already do that if parents neglect treatment for physical ailments. It's time we stop stigmatizing mental illness as less of a real illness as a physical one.

[Squirrel]

There's plenty of blame to go around. The guns, ease of access to get guns, organizations that want to keep the status quo, and parents...

Yes, I do believe parents have a responsibility for their kids and keep firearms in a locked safe. We keep hearing the same back story every school shooting... Kid is quiet, keeps to themselves, and now takes an unhealthy measure on classmates that they were either bullied by or didn't like.

The Santa Fe, TX shooter claimed to start his shooting plan because he was embarrassed by a girl he liked. This is an upside down world, truly, if kids immediately think about shooting people they were embarrassed by.

You are still setting it up that there are excuses other than guns so nothing is done about guns. We’ve heard all this before ... it’s the parents’ fault, it’s mental illness, it’s the lack of religion in schools, it’s bullying, etc. While I’m not going to say that there aren’t issues in some of those things, the commonality in these events isn’t these excuses ... it’s guns and our gun culture. Address that and gun violence is lessened. Work on the other things for a betterment of society as a whole.

[Mr. Brooks]

I can't imagine the NRA will stand for letting gun owners get charged for crimes they didn't commit themselves.

 

It'll never happen. (The right-wing came out with this talking point first, I bet they shut that down real quick once they realize the implications)

 

I'm also not sure it should. That's a fuzzy line to start walking.

Well then it's time to take back our country from the NRA.

We shouldn't need the NRA's permission to protect ourselves.

We already hold people liable for other dangerous items. Dogs, pools, hazardous materials, trampolines, etc.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well then it's time to take back our country from the NRA.
We shouldn't need the NRA's permission to protect ourselves.
We already hold people liable for other dangerous items. Dogs, pools, hazardous materials, trampolines, etc.

 

I wasn't making a value judgment on the NRA's stance, simply stating the lay of the land.  You won't get any NRA sympathy for me, but we have to consider what solutions we can accomplish as long as they are around and have the kind of power they have.

 

Until we can neuter them at the ballot-box (a preposition I'm not sure is possible) they can't be ignored.  

 

I've long thought we have to fight gun ownership like we fought smoking.  Make it so disgusting and unthinkable to the next generation that it all but dies out in those generations as time passes.  Unfortunately, that's a long-term fix (hopefully) and doesn't help much in the short run.

[Mr. Brooks]

You are still setting it up that there are excuses other than guns so nothing is done about guns. We’ve heard all this before ... it’s the parents’ fault, it’s mental illness, it’s the lack of religion in schools, it’s bullying, etc. While I’m not going to say that there aren’t issues in some of those things, the commonality in these events isn’t these excuses ... it’s guns and our gun culture. Address that and gun violence is lessened. Work on the other things for a betterment of society as a whole.

Correct.

There are a whole list of issues that go into these shootings, but one thing on that list carries far more weight than the rest.

Plenty of other countries have mental illness, bad parenting, lack of religion, bullying, and violent video games. Yet this doesn't happen in those countries. The one variable on that list, that differentiates us from those other countries is our collective obsession, romanticization, and ease of access to guns.

[TheLeviathan]

 

A fuzzy line for sure. But someone was responsible for providing firearms to minors. Most of the time it's been parents that don't keep their firearms locked in a safe. Or the kids know the code...

 

I think the dilemma comes in your use of the word "providing".  Several of these school shooters have simply taken the guns and/or shot their parents before their act.  

 

I guess if the parent says "Don't forget your gun on your way out!" that's one thing, but a kid taking them without their knowledge?  Or purchasing/stealing them and hiding them from their parents?  I just don't know how we go down that road without serious problems to our idea of justice.

[Vanimal46]

You are still setting it up that there are excuses other than guns so nothing is done about guns. We’ve heard all this before ... it’s the parents’ fault, it’s mental illness, it’s the lack of religion in schools, it’s bullying, etc. While I’m not going to say that there aren’t issues in some of those things, the commonality in these events isn’t these excuses ... it’s guns and our gun culture. Address that and gun violence is lessened. Work on the other things for a betterment of society as a whole.

I get that. I'm not a gun owner nor do I ever see myself owning a gun at any point in my life... So I'm perfectly fine taking them away.

[Squirrel]

 

I get that. I'm not a gun owner nor do I ever see myself owning a gun at any point in my life... So I'm perfectly fine taking them away.

And don't get me wrong ... I'm not saying that there aren't serious social issues at play on top of it, but it's always a different issue that gets finger-pointed with each event, leaving the gun issue untouched. That's all I'm really getting at. And once these other issues are thrown out there, they act as a deflection away from the one issue that unifies all these events ... the guns.

[Mr. Brooks]

I wasn't making a value judgment on the NRA's stance, simply stating the lay of the land. You won't get any NRA sympathy for me, but we have to consider what solutions we can accomplish as long as they are around and have the kind of power they have.

 

Until we can neuter them at the ballot-box (a preposition I'm not sure is possible) they can't be ignored.

 

I've long thought we have to fight gun ownership like we fought smoking. Make it so disgusting and unthinkable to the next generation that it all but dies out in those generations as time passes. Unfortunately, that's a long-term fix (hopefully) and doesn't help much in the short run.

And I personally don't even think that gun ownership, as a whole, is necessarily the problem. Yes, there are people who are not psychologically capable of responsibly owning a gun, and it's essential that we do everything possible to make sure those people can't access them.

 

But the bigger problem with guns, in this country, IMO, is the obsession and culture of them. A gun, when owned and used properly is a tool. But the culture in this country glorifies them so far beyond the status of a simple tool, to a level that is sickening.

You have magazines and websites, hundreds or thousands of them, devoted to people posing with their guns. You don't see that with other tools.

You have people who obsessively buy, and collect more than they would ever need if used strictly with the purpose of a tool. When is the last time you heard of someone (let alone millions of people), who obsessively collected as many wrenches or hammers or pliers as they could get their hands on? And posted pictures of themselves posing with them, in every conceivable pose, all over their social media? You haven't. People don't do that.

 

Many of the gun owners that I know, feel the need, or the overwhelming desire to immediately show me every "cool" aspect of their new "toy" (their words), when they get a new one. Not once have they done this when they've purchased a new screwdriver or hacksaw.

 

My wife and I own a small collection of guns. Each one of them has a specific purpose, because they are tools. We don't buy new ones, because we don't have a need for new ones, just like people don't buy a new tape measure if the one they have already works perfectly fine.

We keep them locked away, out of sight, except the few occasions we need one of them. We don't display them all over the house, like trophies, just like nobody displays their channel locks and crescent wrenches in that manner.

 

It's very disturbing the hero culture that this country has built around guns.

The vast majority of the population can roll their eyes and shrug their shoulders at that idolization of guns. But, when one of those people who have a violent psychological tendency are consumed by that aura, it's easy to see how they could think that lashing out with those guns that are seemingly universally glorified in this country is an okay, or even proper thing to do when a situation arises where they think they've been wronged.

[Vanimal46]

And don't get me wrong ... I'm not saying that there aren't serious social issues at play on top of it, but it's always a different issue that gets finger-pointed with each event, leaving the gun issue untouched. That's all I'm really getting at. And once these other issues are thrown out there, they act as a deflection away from the one issue that unifies all these events ... the guns.

Yeah I agree guns are the main issue here... But I'm open to alternatives as well since that is a huge issue to tackle. There isn't a simple solution to this complex problem.

 

It breaks my heart the path kids are going down, and I'm not that far removed from school. We had one "lock down" in my school life through high school. And that was a false alarm... It's sad that 10 years later this is the first solution kids think of when they're having issues.