An Upside Down World

[Squirrel]

 

Don't know. Don't follow him. However, he obtained the nut job's manifesto. Which is more important than the person who delivered the message, no?

Absolutely not! Seriously? You don't consider the source at all? Why? because it's confirmation bias? The twitter poster is the 'nut job' ... an alt-right promoter ... you do know what that is, right? I also googled 'ICE bomber's manifesto' and found nothing other than this guy. AN ALT-RIGHT TWITTER TROLL. Van ... come on, man. While I don't condone violence, if this is the voice that is promoting this, that I question it ... a lot. 

[Squirrel]

 

Plus, it shows once again major media outlets either dropping the ball on this story, or just ignoring it all together. They're too busy analyzing Trump's tweets over the weekend.

No, it proves nothing ... other than you jump on the worst ship because it agrees with your stand.

[Vanimal46]

Absolutely not! Seriously? You don't consider the source at all? Why? because it's confirmation bias? The twitter poster is the 'nut job' ... an alt-right promoter ... you do know what that is, right? I also googled 'ICE bomber's manifesto' and found nothing other than this guy. AN ALT-RIGHT TWITTER TROLL. Van ... come on, man. While I don't condone violence, if this is the voice that is promoting this, that I question it ... a lot.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/tacoma-police-armed-man-throwing-incendiary-devices-shot-outside-ice-detention-center/

 

If the conclusion you're drawing out of conversations over the last few months is I'm an alt-right promoter then I'm doing a terrible job here.

[Squirrel]

Again ... I did more googling to research this ... and all I came up with are alt-right websites. I don't think it proves anything other than you are looking for confirmation and have done so in the worst arena. Congrats.

[Squirrel]

 

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/tacoma-police-armed-man-throwing-incendiary-devices-shot-outside-ice-detention-center/

If the conclusion you're drawing out of conversations over the last few months is I'm an alt-right promoter then I'm doing a terrible job here.

No ... that's not my conclusion ... but the twitter post and the summit news blurb ... that is not supporting your stance in any way, imo ... only making it worse.

 

This article from the seattle times ... it reports nothing of antifa. It was a single person, who mailed out suicide notes, wanted a deadly confrontation and got it, on the eve of the so-called ICE raids, which I guess really didn't happen. To me, what you've posted today say nothing toward what you've been saying this past month.

[Craig Arko]

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/tacoma-police-armed-man-throwing-incendiary-devices-shot-outside-ice-detention-center/

If the conclusion you're drawing out of conversations over the last few months is I'm an alt-right promoter then I'm doing a terrible job here.

I bet you can do better.

[MMMordabito]

From the horses mouth:

 

https://pugetsoundanarchists.org/we-are-the-fire-that-will-melt-ice-rest-in-power-will-van-spronsen-olympia-wa/

 

Look at the photos .... Looks like Antifa to me

 

"We wish the fires Will set had freed all the inmates and razed the entire Northwest Detention Center to the ground."

 

Hmmm ... Is this not a call to violence?

[Vanimal46]

Again ... I did more googling to research this ... and all I came up with are alt-right websites. I don't think it proves anything other than you are looking for confirmation and have done so in the worst arena. Congrats.

Is this source more palatable?

 

https://www.kiro7.com/amp/news/south-sound-news/vashon-island-man-sent-manifesto-before-he-was-killed-at-detention-center/966996647?__twitter_impression=true

 

Also, notice that the manifesto KIRO obtained is the same that alt-right websites have. Is KIRO an alt-right media source?

[Vanimal46]

And here's another link on the furthest to the left website I can find... Antifa's main website. He's being enshrined as a martyr for the cause.

 

https://itsgoingdown.org/on-williem-van-spronsen/

[Squirrel]

 

And here's another link on the furthest to the left website I can find.

 

It's not about finding a source that is 'to the left' ... it's about finding a source that isn't associated with inforwars and alt-right twitter trolls. If you can't differentiate between what your sources are, it's a problem. And if you don't understand why that's a problem, that's also a problem.

 

But I'll take a look at these.

 

But I will continue my stance ... one side is worse than the other. I don't condone either, but the alt-right is evil. The other is bad, and I don't defend them, and they should be held accountable ... but everything alt-right is simply evil. And that's my stance.

[Vanimal46]

It's not about finding a source that is 'to the left' ... it's about finding a source that isn't associated with inforwars and alt-right twitter trolls. If you can't differentiate between what your sources are, it's a problem. And if you don't understand why that's a problem, that's also a problem.

 

But I'll take a look at these.

 

But I will continue my stance ... one side is worse than the other. I don't condone either, but the alt-right is evil. The other is bad, and I don't defend them, and they should be held accountable ... but everything alt-right is simply evil. And that's my stance.

And my point is the manifesto remains the same. Whether it was presented by a source you don't like, a local news source, or from the Antifa website, the manifesto was not doctored or changed.

 

What are your thoughts? He seemed to buy into the concentration camp label and decided to be a domestic terrorist because of politicians who labeled the facilities concentration camps.

[Vanimal46]

 

Meanwhile.... This is unacceptable. The only reason the US flag should be replaced by the flag of a foreign country is if we've been conquered.

[PseudoSABR]

 

And my point is the manifesto remains the same. Whether it was presented by a source you don't like, a local news source, or from the Antifa website, the manifesto was not doctored or changed.

What are your thoughts? He seemed to buy into the concentration camp label and decided to be a domestic terrorist because of politicians who labeled the facilities concentration camps.

You think the label motivated him, as opposed to the actual deplorable conditions?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

What are your thoughts? He seemed to buy into the concentration camp label and decided to be a domestic terrorist because of politicians who labeled the facilities concentration camps.

 

 

’The point here is not that we all have to agree with Ocasio-Cortez’s declaration that “the U.S. is running concentration camps on our southern border.” The point of historical comparisons is not to seek a perfect match—which can never be found—but to learn how to look out for warning signs.

 

How many people, after all, know that a major act of violence carried out by the Nazi SS was the deportation of Jews deemed to be illegal immigrants?

 

...

 

American policy now is to apply violence to people who lack American citizenship. We subject undocumented migrants to procedures forbidden by international law, such as detention itself, and deny them rights guaranteed by our own Constitution, such as due process of law. These abuses command attention in and of themselves. In historical terms, the worrying thing is that separation from state protection can be the first step toward something much worse. We rightly think of the Holocaust as the attempt to remove Jews from the planet by murdering them all. In its unfolding, however, an important early step was the stigmatization and deportation of Jews who were not German citizens...’

 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/07/holocaust-museum-aoc-detention-centers-immigration.html

[MMMordabito]

 

Meanwhile.... This is unacceptable. The only reason the US flag should be replaced by the flag of a foreign country is if we've been conquered.

 

That's OK to some, but it's not OK for this lady to wave her flag.

 

 

[Mr. Brooks]

That's OK to some, but it's not OK for this lady to wave her flag.

 

Do you actually think a significant portion of the population thinks it's ok to replace the American flag with the Mexican flag?

[MMMordabito]

 

Do you actually think a significant portion of the population thinks it's ok to replace the American flag with the Mexican flag?

 

No, but I have talked to people that think we should respect and empathize with the people doing so.  We proabably should, but the same people want to broad stroke everyone who displays a southern battle flag.

[Mike Sixel]

To be clear, you should be free to fly a racist flag if you want. That's different than the government doing it.... Freedom is about the right to offend, or challenge. It is also about consequences. So, sure, fly the flag of people that tried to secede so they could keep slaves. Just know that you are telling everyone you are a racist....

[Mike Sixel]

Do you actually think a significant portion of the population thinks it's ok to replace the American flag with the Mexican flag?

I don't no anyone that does.

[USMCTwin]

 

To be clear, you should be free to fly a racist flag if you want. That's different than the government doing it.... Freedom is about the right to offend, or challenge. It is also about consequences. So, sure, fly the flag of people that tried to secede so they could keep slaves. Just know that you are telling everyone you are a racist....

 

Sigh... Is it possible they are either misguided or ill-informed? 

[Craig Arko]

Sigh... Is it possible they are either misguided or ill-informed?

 

Almost certainly. What do you think can/should be done to change that situation? Can it be changed?

[Mike Sixel]

Sigh... Is it possible they are either misguided or ill-informed?

How so? I mean, it is literally the Confederate flag. What else would it mean? Sure, a tiny minority might be, but the majority who fly it? Why would they fly it?

 

Telling them it is racist, over and over, doesn't appear to be working.

[MMMordabito]

 

Just know that you are telling everyone you are a racist....

 

So that lady is racist against herself?

 

It's a real life Dave Chappelle skit.

[Mike Sixel]

So that lady is racist against herself?

 

It's a real life Dave Chappelle skit.

You don't think people of color can be racist, or, maybe, she's one of the small group that is somehow something else, as I acknowledged is possible.

 

I'll ask again, what do you think most people mean by flying it? Do you really think most people don't know it is racist?

[USMCTwin]

 

Almost certainly. What do you think can/should be done to change that situation? Can it be changed?

 

I hate to say this, but I think that it will just have to die off as the people do. Most people I know that still have use for a confederate battle flag consider it more as a Southern pride type thing. I see southern pride when I see it, but that doesn't change the fact that other people (people who were oppressed by it indirectly) see it as a symbol of racism and I can draw the parallel so I have no desire to see it displayed. I prefer to avoid division and unnecessary bad will. There are other objects/ideas we can rally around together. I just don't think telling anyone that has a confederate battle flag they are racist is either necessarily true or helpful. 

[Mike Sixel]

I hate to say this, but I think that it will just have to die off as the people do. Most people I know that still have use for a confederate battle flag consider it more as a Southern pride type thing. I see southern pride when I see it, but that doesn't change the fact that other people (people who were oppressed by it indirectly) see it as a symbol of racism and I can draw the parallel so I have no desire to see it displayed. I prefer to avoid division and unnecessary bad will. There are other objects/ideas we can rally around together. I just don't think telling anyone that has a confederate battle flag they are racist is either necessarily true or helpful.

It was almost never flown until the civil Rights movement. Plenty of ways to show pride rather than fly the flag of a group that tried to dissolve the union.

 

I don't get how this is controversial. Help me understand. I'm genuinely asking how flying the flag of people that wanted to keep slaves is a good idea.

[USMCTwin]

 

You don't think people of color can be racist, or, maybe, she's one of the small group that is somehow something else, as I acknowledged is possible.

I'll ask again, what do you think most people mean by flying it? Do you really think most people don't know it is racist?

 

I really do believe the majority of people that fly it are not racist. In my opinion someone telling them they are racist will make them dig their heels in even further. "I will continue to fly it to prove it isn't racist." I really believe if they actually thought it made them racist they would be much more discreet about it.

 

I think it is more about southern pride and I will grant you that it is terribly misguided and hurtful.

[USMCTwin]

 

It was almost never flown until the civil Rights movement. Plenty of ways to show pride rather than fly the flag of a group that tried to dissolve the union.

I don't get how this is controversial. Help me understand. I'm genuinely asking how flying the flag of people that wanted to keep slaves is a good idea.

 

Again I don't think it is a good idea. I think it is a terrible decision. I'm just trying to help you understand the rationale other than they must be racist.

[Craig Arko]

I hate to say this, but I think that it will just have to die off as the people do. Most people I know that still have use for a confederate battle flag consider it more as a Southern pride type thing. I see southern pride when I see it, but that doesn't change the fact that other people (people who were oppressed by it indirectly) see it as a symbol of racism and I can draw the parallel so I have no desire to see it displayed. I prefer to avoid division and unnecessary bad will. There are other objects/ideas we can rally around together. I just don't think telling anyone that has a confederate battle flag they are racist is either necessarily true or helpful.

 

Well, it’s been maybe 4-5 generations or thereabouts, and shows little sign of dying out. I think the situation(s) in Eastern Europe and the Middle East demonstrate that the old hatreds don’t just die off.

 

My feeling is that there will be another Civil War, perhaps not in my lifetime but in that of some of those reading this. Within the lifetime of your kids, perhaps. There is more at stake than tax cuts here.

[MMMordabito]

 

It was almost never flown until the civil Rights movement. Plenty of ways to show pride rather than fly the flag of a group that tried to dissolve the union.

I don't get how this is controversial. Help me understand. I'm genuinely asking how flying the flag of people that wanted to keep slaves is a good idea.

 

And the yelling of racism about it was never so loud until the Dylann Roof incident .... He isn't your typical white southerner, and he is rightly on death row for his psycho actions.

 

Flying the flag because being butt-hurt about the union victory has been passed down to you through the generations doesn't make you a racist.  Flying the flag because you are anti-liberal doesn't make you a racist.

 

Crying racism is just a virtue signaling tool of the far left to conjure up guilt from the weak-minded and further their agenda.