Winds of Winter

[TheLeviathan]

I guess I'm.....underwhelmed?  It didn't resonate with me like Hardhome of the Battle of the Bastards.  I'm going to rewatch tonight and see if that changes.

 

I do think it's safe to say this is Martin's plan.  So many of the early call-backs were leading here, but there was something too easy about how Arya took down the Night King.  Certainly that is the plan, there is poetic justice in the knife that was going to be used to kill Bran coming to his rescue in the key moment.  And this does give justice to all of Arya's travels.  Still.....something not right for me.  Here are some of my initial less positive thoughts:

 

1) Given the way the dead overwhelmed the castle it's hard for me to believe so many characters survived.  

2) Why was Bran warging so crucial only to not show up as important in the end?

3) The crypt terror was one everyone saw coming but it seemed glossed over.  It happened so late in the fight it didn't see to be all that impactful.

4) Why send the Khalasaar in solo without air cover?

[Vanimal46]

Wight walkers can dog pile over fire to let in a swarm of other wight walkers. But when they battle, they can only fight one at a time in a single file line.

 

Night King is the most powerful dude in the whole series... Yet throws spears with the same accuracy as Rick Ankiel the pitcher.

[Mike Sixel]

I agree there were parts that were head scratchers. But up until Sansa and Tyrion did not kill themselves, I wasn't sure who would survive. So, the first hour or so was properly intense. Then the plot armor showed up.

 

The not today line was great.

 

Bran? Useless. At least he could provide intel,or something.

[TheLeviathan]

Yeah, Bran being a total non-factor leaves me wondering what his purpose is.

 

And if you're a book reader....holy crap what a lot of wasted time.

[Mike Sixel]

Yeah, Bran being a total non-factor leaves me wondering what his purpose is.

 

And if you're a book reader....holy crap what a lot of wasted time.

That last sentence is true about a lot of characters, but yes, especially bran.

[gunnarthor]

 

Yeah, Bran being a total non-factor leaves me wondering what his purpose is.

 

And if you're a book reader....holy crap what a lot of wasted time.

I imagine the book is going to be considerable different. 

[TheLeviathan]

I imagine the book is going to be considerable different.

 

I don't think so. Maybe a bit more robust, but this is his ending.

[biggentleben]

I get the character finale of going now after Cersei, but I don't have to like it. Her character has just been too much to me throughout the show. Her survival and rise to power among a series of fantasy is the most unbelievable aspect to me, so having the ending now revolve around that bugs me, but I will say I enjoyed utilizing Arya rather than the token "Jon Snow saves the world" mantra.

[Vanimal46]

That last sentence is true about a lot of characters, but yes, especially bran.

I binged the show before season 8 started and didn't really take the time to digest everything... My consistent thought watching seasons 1-7 is there's no point to Bran... They just showed him every 7-8 episodes as a reminder that he's still out on his journey.

 

I was hoping there would be a point in season 8 when he finally reunited with everyone... Nope.

 

Maybe he'll play a bigger role taking down Cersei?

[Doomtints]

Bran's continued existence (and mystery) suggests to me there is still a bigger threat around somewhere that we don't know about yet.

[Mike Sixel]

Bran's continued existence (and mystery) suggests to me there is still a bigger threat around somewhere that we don't know about yet.

Possibly. But the show runners suck at fantasy.

[Mike Sixel]

I get the character finale of going now after Cersei, but I don't have to like it. Her character has just been too much to me throughout the show. Her survival and rise to power among a series of fantasy is the most unbelievable aspect to me, so having the ending now revolve around that bugs me, but I will say I enjoyed utilizing Arya rather than the token "Jon Snow saves the world" mantra.

I feel 100 percent the opposite about Cersei. The show runners are quite good at the people stuff, and she's a great villain.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I binged the show before season 8 started and didn't really take the time to digest everything... My consistent thought watching seasons 1-7 is there's no point to Bran... They just showed him every 7-8 episodes as a reminder that he's still out on his journey.

I was hoping there would be a point in season 8 when he finally reunited with everyone... Nope.

Maybe he'll play a bigger role taking down Cersei?

 

His story is so entwined with the Night King I don't see how that's possible.  

 

I agree with Mike, the show seems to struggle with the fantasy aspects of the story.  But I also think part of that struggle is that Martin put so many fantasy red herrings in the novel that trying to wedge them all in and keep them meaningful is basically impossible.  In a novel a pointless thread can be an irritant but not ruin the story, in a TV show every thread needs purpose.  

 

Going into this season I worried about the purpose of two characters: Arya and Bran.  Both of them seemed to have spent considerable time training for a role I was unsure would ever matter.  For Arya, we saw a payoff.  Bran?  He's the glue that pulls a few things together but he's far, far from pivotal.  

[gunnarthor]

 

I don't think so. Maybe a bit more robust, but this is his ending.

Maybe but I'm pretty sure his ending will be against the Others and not over King's Landing. Maybe Arya kills the Nights King but I'd be amazed if killing the Night King kills everything else like it did last night. (In the book, the Nights King comes after the Others have already been around, he might not even show up in the book). My guess is that there will be a huge battle near the heart of winter and one in the Astral plane (for lack of a better description) that Bran will be the major player in. If one of Dany's dragons dies/gets stolen, I think it'll be Euron who does it, not the Others. And I don't think Cercei makes it out of the next book.She won't be the last villain standing. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Maybe but I'm pretty sure his ending will be against the Others and not over King's Landing. Maybe Arya kills the Nights King but I'd be amazed if killing the Night King kills everything else like it did last night. (In the book, the Nights King comes after the Others have already been around, he might not even show up in the book). My guess is that there will be a huge battle near the heart of winter and one in the Astral plane (for lack of a better description) that Bran will be the major player in. If one of Dany's dragons dies/gets stolen, I think it'll be Euron who does it, not the Others. And I don't think Cercei makes it out of the next book.She won't be the last villain standing. 

 

It'd be hard to disagree with you.  But I think Euron is a giant red herring.  I think he's going to amount to squat in the end.

 

Then again, I'm not sure Martin can get to his end.  I think he's made it impossible and I don't just mean for him personally.  I'm not sure anyone can finish his story he's lost it so much.

[Vanimal46]

His story is so entwined with the Night King I don't see how that's possible.

 

I agree with Mike, the show seems to struggle with the fantasy aspects of the story. But I also think part of that struggle is that Martin put so many fantasy red herrings in the novel that trying to wedge them all in and keep them meaningful is basically impossible. In a novel a pointless thread can be an irritant but not ruin the story, in a TV show every thread needs purpose.

 

Going into this season I worried about the purpose of two characters: Arya and Bran. Both of them seemed to have spent considerable time training for a role I was unsure would ever matter. For Arya, we saw a payoff. Bran? He's the glue that pulls a few things together but he's far, far from pivotal.

I agree that they're lacking, and frankly ignoring a lot of the fantasy aspects of the show. It was never really explained why Bran's power is important to anyone else besides him. Why isn't he sharing his intel whenever he becomes the 3 eyed raven?

 

I think they left a lot of interesting fantasy elements off the table for the battle of Winterfell. Maybe they thought it would be too unrealistic? Or didn't have enough time to build out that storyline?

[TheLeviathan]

 

I agree that they're lacking, and frankly ignoring a lot of the fantasy aspects of the show. It was never really explained why Bran's power is important to anyone else besides him. Why isn't he sharing his intel whenever he becomes the 3 eyed raven?

I think they left a lot of interesting fantasy elements off the table for the battle of Winterfell. Maybe they thought it would be too unrealistic? Or didn't have enough time to build out that storyline?

 

I think the show knows it can't keep everyone on the cast long enough to do the ending justice so things are a bit rushed.  8 years out of a fantasy show is far more than most can ever muster.  I wonder if they just ran out of time to do those elements justice.  Or maybe they (wrongly) thought they were.

[Mike Sixel]

Imo, they aren't interested in the fantasy element. Makes you wonder how they will do on their next effort...

[gunnarthor]

 

Imo, they aren't interested in the fantasy element. Makes you wonder how they will do on their next effort...

That's my take. But it's hard to do the fantasy elements justice as well. Might have been a creative decision as Levi implies. 

 

But Bran's three-eyed crow thing is clearly supposed to be important in the book. Didn't really have a payoff last night. It'll help show that Jon Snow is the rightful king, of course.

[Vanimal46]

Imo, they aren't interested in the fantasy element. Makes you wonder how they will do on their next effort...

If there was any point in the show to highlight fantasy elements, last night was it... I mean, they're already fighting a freaking army of dead people, led by a king who's been dead for thousands of years. Ironically it's almost more unrealistic to think a dozen main characters could fight off thousands of dead soldiers without the use of magic.

[TheLeviathan]

 

That's my take. But it's hard to do the fantasy elements justice as well. Might have been a creative decision as Levi implies. 

 

But Bran's three-eyed crow thing is clearly supposed to be important in the book. Didn't really have a payoff last night. It'll help show that Jon Snow is the rightful king, of course.

 

Could be financial too.  They're already running up record budgets for this and we know they've had to cut some elements because of that.  (I took that as an implication from you post, but thought it worth spelling out)

[TheLeviathan]

 

If there was any point in the show to highlight fantasy elements, last night was it... I mean, they're already fighting a freaking army of dead people, led by a king who's been dead for thousands of years. Ironically it's almost more unrealistic to think a dozen main characters could fight off thousands of dead soldiers without the use of magic.

 

There was magic.  Though it seems odd how much Melisandre really impacted the battle other than telling Arya her destiny.

[PseudoSABR]

Magic is really hard to pull off on television.  It works better in books, because the author can rely on the reader's imagination to fill in the gaps that creates a greater sense of realism.  Additionally, an author can fill in the history and how things work through an informed narrator.  One false choice or bad CGI moment breaks the "Fourth Wall" of television.  Given that GoT is really character based, I don't mind that the show is moving away from it's magical elements to conclude. 

[Mike Sixel]

Magic is really hard to pull off on television. It works better in books, because the author can rely on the reader's imagination to fill in the gaps that creates a greater sense of realism. Additionally, an author can fill in the history and how things work through an informed narrator. One false choice or bad CGI moment breaks the "Fourth Wall" of television. Given that GoT is really character based, I don't mind that the show is moving away from it's magical elements to conclude.

Agreed on all that. But, that was the time for magic.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Magic is really hard to pull off on television.  It works better in books, because the author can rely on the reader's imagination to fill in the gaps that creates a greater sense of realism.  Additionally, an author can fill in the history and how things work through an informed narrator.  One false choice or bad CGI moment breaks the "Fourth Wall" of television.  Given that GoT is really character based, I don't mind that the show is moving away from it's magical elements to conclude. 

And let's get this straight: A Song of Ice & Fire is not about magic.

 

Yes, it has scary ice zombies, three dragons, a few resurrected corpses, a dude who possesses birds, a crazy lady with a red amulet, and a smattering other magical elements.

 

But the story isn't about magic. It has magical elements but they're not the core of the story, not even close.

 

Hell, even the "wizards" of the story are just dudes with chains around their necks who read a lot of books. They're more theologian scientists than wizards.

 

It's basically Lord of the Rings with even less magic and LotR hardly had any magic in it at all, really. And, like Lord of the Rings, I suspect the story ends with "this is now the world of men, not monsters and magic".

[Mike Sixel]

 

And let's get this straight: A Song of Ice & Fire is not about magic.

 

Yes, it has scary ice zombies, three dragons, a few resurrected corpses, a dude who possesses birds, a crazy lady with a red amulet, and a smattering other magical elements.

 

But the story isn't about magic. It has magical elements but they're not the core of the story, not even close.

 

Hell, even the "wizards" of the story are just dudes with chains around their necks who read a lot of books. They're more theologian scientists than wizards.

 

It's basically Lord of the Rings with even less magic and LotR hardly had any magic in it at all, really. And, like Lord of the Rings, I suspect the story ends with "this is now the world of men, not monsters and magic".

 

no one is disputing that....but that doesn't mean these show runners are good at it, or interested in it, which is what people said....

 

And, that doesn't change the fact that if this is the payoff for Bran, yuck.

[Brock Beauchamp]

But I finally watched the battle episode. I have to say that after two lead-up episodes that really had me engrossed, the battle was lackluster. It didn't help that, despite my 4k TV and gigabit connection, HBO Go took an overly-dark episode and made it look like an artifacted mess. Quite the disappointment and really a terrible streaming experience.

 

But the battle itself was mind-numbingly stupid.

 

- Whose idea was it to send the cavalry directly at an enemy of unknown numbers on a pitch black battlefield?

- Why wasn't the barricade IN FRONT of the army? Or why weren't there two barricades?

- The trebuchets were in front.

- The trebuchets fired once.

- WTF were the dragons doing the entire time the walkers were standing at the fire barricade?

- And why were the dragons running so few strafing runs before the night storm set in? The entire sky should have been fire for the first half of the battle.

- Greek fire or burning oil could have been of use on the walls, fellas.

 

I've already forgotten a few more things about the battle that bugged me. I don't expect precise military operations from a TV show but I also expect not to scratch my head every three minutes as the "heroes" make another dumb decision.

[Mike Sixel]

 

But I finally watched the battle episode. I have to say that after two lead-up episodes that really had me engrossed, the battle was lackluster. It didn't help that, despite my 4k TV and gigabit connection, HBO Go took an overly-dark episode and made it look like an artifacted mess. Quite the disappointment and really a terrible streaming experience.

 

But the battle itself was mind-numbingly stupid.

 

- Whose idea was it to send the cavalry directly at an enemy of unknown numbers on a pitch black battlefield?

- Why wasn't the barricade IN FRONT of the army? Or why weren't there two barricades?

- The trebuchets were in front.

- The trebuchets fired once.

- WTF were the dragons doing the entire time the walkers were standing at the fire barricade?

- And why were the dragons running so few strafing runs before the night storm set in? The entire sky should have been fire for the first half of the battle.

- Greek fire or burning oil could have been of use on the walls, fellas.

 

I've already forgotten a few more things about the battle that bugged me. I don't expect precise military operations from a TV show but I also expect not to scratch my head every three minutes as the "heroes" make another dumb decision.

 

Well, Jon has only been riding a dragon a few days.....so I'm not sure how well he could control him.

 

Dany and Jon have proven over and over that they suck at battle strategy and tactics. This was no different. They might not have greek fire in the North.....

 

But, ya, lots of ridiculously stupid decisions again and again. But I still liked it, because I wasn't sure who was going to die, until the plot armor kicked in with about fifteen minutes to go.....

[Mike Sixel]

Also, I must be the only one not bothered by how dark it was.

 

It was dark out......it gave us a sense of what the characters experienced, imo. I kind of enjoyed it, rather than the artificial light we get in most night/cave scenes*

 

*note, I'm not arguing that all scenes should be that way.....

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yeah, the plot armor was thick in the second half of the episode. I’m pretty sure I went five minutes without seeing a single warrior who wasn’t a named character in the show.