Winds of Winter

[diehardtwinsfan]

I think the season peaked at Episode 3. Not a fan at all of the last two episodes... Danny going crazy pretty much seals her fate... not quite sure who is sitting in the end. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Interesting thread:

 

My first novel was 100% pantser, yet it is all plot and no character. So, either I'm an anomaly, or that's generalizing.....

[TheLeviathan]

 

The rumor didn't say who of the 3 ended up delivering the decisive blow, but they could certainly write that in - the 3 dragons battle her one, who has battle experience as an advantage to their 3. John could deliver the final sword through Dany after her dragon is defeated and she falls to the earth.

 

With only 80 minutes left, I can't see how they'd introduce something like that.  If there were 4 more episodes...alright, but this just can't be true.  

 

I imagine Jon gets torn in different directions by Arya, Davos, and Tyrion in one direction  (I assume he's about to be arrested for treason as well) and in another to his love for Dany.  In the end, he chooses to be a Stark and kills her.  

 

There is the bitter....so what could be the sweet?  Jon reluctantly takes the throne?  Sansa?

[TheLeviathan]

 

My first novel was 100% pantser, yet it is all plot and no character. So, either I'm an anomaly, or that's generalizing.....

 

I think it is a pretty hard generalization, but my god does being a "pantser" fit GRRM.  And Brock and I have described his writing as creating overgrowths all the time, which I find to be a funny similarity.  

[Mike Sixel]

 

I think it is a pretty hard generalization, but my god does being a "pantser" fit GRRM.  And Brock and I have described his writing as creating overgrowths all the time, which I find to be a funny similarity.  

 

Oh, no doubt about it, he fits that generalization for sure......

 

But, no, it's not GRRM.....its that the showrunners wanted to be done in 13 episodes, when there was 20 episodes of story left, if you want to be true to the context and characters....

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Oh, no doubt about it, he fits that generalization for sure......

 

But, no, it's not GRRM.....its that the showrunners wanted to be done in 13 episodes, when there was 20 episodes of story left, if you want to be true to the context and characters....

 

I agree, the problems of this season are on the show runners.  

 

I think this episode could have been an epic, beautiful spectacle......had it been earned by the story telling.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Ok... final predictions?

 

Jon's secret is probably not out. I think Varys was trying to poison Danny unsuccessfully, but he's gone now. Not sure how many of those letters he sent.

 

I'm going wtih Bran warging into Drogon and killing it (possibly with Arya helping)...

 

Someone kills Danny. Jon doesn't want the throne and Sansa ends up on it.

[Vanimal46]

Ok... final predictions?

 

Jon's secret is probably not out. I think Varys was trying to poison Danny unsuccessfully, but he's gone now. Not sure how many of those letters he sent.

 

I'm going wtih Bran warging into Drogon and killing it (possibly with Arya helping)...

 

Someone kills Danny. Jon doesn't want the throne and Sansa ends up on it.

Jon kills Dany. He's the only one I think that can get close enough to her to do so.

 

Jon, the honorable man he is, doesn't take the throne and ends up going back to the wall with the Wildlings.

 

Sansa takes the throne, names Podrick King of the North. Bran continues sitting by the tree not helping. Arya is Sansa's hand and secret agent.

[Mike Sixel]

Dany flies North to kill Sansa, but bran wargs into the dragon, and saves the North.

 

Note....I don't think this happens, but in a fantasy novel it would.

[Mike Sixel]

Arya kills Gray Work while he sleeps, puts on his face, and kills Dany.....

 

Note, this also will not happen, but that's what I'd consider if I was the author.

[Mike Sixel]

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/14/18618634/game-of-thrones-bran-kings-landing-burned-daenerys

[PseudoSABR]

I'll take the obvious one.  Jon kills Dany, reluctantly takes the throne.

[Vanimal46]

I'll take the obvious one. Jon kills Dany, reluctantly takes the throne.

Wouldn't surprise me if it was as easy as this. The rest of the season has gone this way.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Personally, I think this is exactly Jaime's character. Try as he might to be a better man, he can't escape his sister.

 

The turn by Grey Worm and Dany is more troubling. This needed much more time to simmer. There are going to be a lot of people that love Dany as a character (hell, the actress even seems scorned) that will not feel this is earned. I can't say they're wrong.

Agreed on Jamie, though making him less ineffectual for the entire episode would have been nice.

 

I actually agree with Dany’s about-face from a character standpoint but like everything this season, it’s way too accelerated. I don’t view it as being about Missandei, I view it as Dany is a Targaryen, raised by an absolutely vile Targaryen. This is who she always was, she just hadn’t been confronted by opposition to her true destiny when everything was in her grasp, yet things were falling apart around her.

 

Slow this thing down, give it time to breathe, and I think many more things make sense. That goes for the night king, Dany, Jamie, everybody.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think the most accurate way to describe the last episode is that the show runners just seriously Anakined Dany.

 

Anakin: I’m a good person!

 

Anakin five minutes later: Eat lightsaber, younglings!

 

Dany isn’t quite that bad but this season has felt like I’m only watching odd-numbered episodes and there’s an entire half of a season I’m missing.

[Vanimal46]

Agreed on Jamie, though making him less ineffectual for the entire episode would have been nice.

 

I actually agree with Dany’s about-face from a character standpoint but like everything this season, it’s way too accelerated. I don’t view it as being about Missandei, I view it as Dany is a Targaryen, raised by an absolutely vile Targaryen. This is who she always was, she just hadn’t been confronted by opposition to her true destiny when everything was in her grasp, yet things were falling apart around her.

 

Slow this thing down, give it time to breathe, and I think many more things make sense. That goes for the night king, Dany, Jamie, everybody.

Yeah, pacing is the culprit the last 2 seasons. It's a shame the writers arbitrarily decided 13 episodes was enough to land this beast of a show. I doubt there would be as many complaints if season 7 was dedicated to defeating the night king in 10 episodes. And season 8 dedicated to defeating Cersei/Dany's transition to mad queen. Instead they lumped everything together in roughly 9 hours.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think the most accurate way to describe the last episode is that the show runners just seriously Anakined Dany.

Anakin: I’m a good person!

Anakin five minutes later: Eat lightsaber, younglings!

Dany isn’t quite that bad but this season has felt like I’m only watching odd-numbered episodes and there’s an entire half of a season I’m missing.

 

People, for good reason, have been building a Messiah-like image of Dany for a long time.  The signs were always there that she was worse than we though, but many saw her as the heroine of this story.  She wasn't, this is Jon's story at heart, but people aren't going to let that perception go easily.

 

They needed to let people see she was changing but hold on to the hope that she was still their Messiah until the moment she wasn't.  It would have been a bitter, harsh turn, but this abrupt makes people feel betrayed as viewers.   That's unfortunate, they let something brilliant slip away.

[Brock Beauchamp]

People, for good reason, have been building a Messiah-like image of Dany for a long time. The signs were always there that she was worse than we though, but many saw her as the heroine of this story. She wasn't, this is Jon's story at heart, but people aren't going to let that perception go easily.

 

They needed to let people see she was changing but hold on to the hope that she was still their Messiah until the moment she wasn't. It would have been a bitter, harsh turn, but this abrupt makes people feel betrayed as viewers. That's unfortunate, they let something brilliant slip away.

Yep, she’s always had the ability to be merciless, which is why I don’t disagree with the character pivot. And losing two of her most trusted friends could and should push her over the edge but the show runners were playing it too close to the vest for too long. The seeds for this pivot needed to be planted earlier and more directly; nothing over the top, just more time to show her descent into being the mad queen.

 

What I’m most interested in seeing next episode is how Tyrion reacts to what happened. It would be a true violation of his character if he stands by Dany after that happened, though it totally made sense why he tried so hard to stand by her through the past few episodes.

[TheLeviathan]

 

What I’m most interested in seeing next episode is how Tyrion reacts to what happened. It would be a true violation of his character if he stands by Dany after that happened, though it totally made sense why he tried so hard to stand by her through the past few episodes.

 

I expect him to be in a jail cell quite frankly.  Freeing Jamie Lannister will not be looked on kindly by Dany.

 

I hope he survives this to be on the council of the next king.  Being the hand of the queen to Sansa would be an interesting way to close things.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I expect him to be in a jail cell quite frankly. Freeing Jamie Lannister will not be looked on kindly by Dany.

Possibly, though it wouldn’t surprise me if he pursued Jon immediately after the battle. I think the rift in camps could be immediate, which would allow Tyrion to stay away from her entirely.

[Vanimal46]

Possibly, though it wouldn’t surprise me if he pursued Jon immediately after the battle. I think the rift in camps could be immediate, which would allow Tyrion to stay away from her entirely.

His only chance of survival is teaming up with the Starks now... The irony is rich there. Dany will sentence him to death by dragon fire if he's anywhere near her.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I think the most accurate way to describe the last episode is that the show runners just seriously Anakined Dany.

Anakin: I’m a good person!

Anakin five minutes later: Eat lightsaber, younglings!

Dany isn’t quite that bad but this season has felt like I’m only watching odd-numbered episodes and there’s an entire half of a season I’m missing.

 

bodes well for their next project.....

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

bodes well for their next project.....

I still question how much of this is actually their "fault". We're talking about the most massive fantasy franchise ever put on television, one that runs over $15m per episode from what I've read.

 

Still, they're basically shooting 90 minute films for $15m, yet they're trying to tell $100m blockbuster film stories. That's... not a lot of money in that context.

 

The deeper we get into this, the more I wonder if the biggest problem is actually located somewhere in the HBO accounting department. Everything feels like it's missing both time and budget, right down to the "pitch black" episode that really needed to be 2-3 episodes.

 

Maybe HBO would have gone for another season because it's a cash cow but it's also possible HBO has seen the "return" on this show through increased subscribers and are ready to move on, limiting the showrunners to one season that should have been two seasons (or, at minimum, one full-length season).

 

The showrunners did so much right for so long that I'm skeptical of buying into the narrative that they suddenly forgot how to tell a story, especially when you consider why this final season is faltering so often (almost all signs point to something related to budget, whether it be number of episodes or how those episodes are portrayed visually and what happens in them to give SFX relief).

[Mike Sixel]

 

I still question how much of this is actually their "fault". We're talking about the most massive fantasy franchise ever put on television, one that runs over $15m per episode from what I've read.

 

Still, they're basically shooting 90 minute films for $15m, yet they're trying to tell $100m blockbuster film stories. That's... not a lot of money in that context.

 

The deeper we get into this, the more I wonder if the biggest problem is actually located somewhere in the HBO accounting department. Everything feels like it's missing both time and budget, right down to the "pitch black" episode that really needed to be 2-3 episodes.

 

Maybe HBO would have gone for another season because it's a cash cow but it's also possible HBO has seen the "return" on this show through increased subscribers and are ready to move on, limiting the showrunners to one season that should have been two seasons (or, at minimum, one full-length season).

 

The showrunners did so much right for so long that I'm skeptical of buying into the narrative that they suddenly forgot how to tell a story, especially when you consider why this final season is faltering so often (almost all signs point to something related to budget, whether it be number of episodes or how those episodes are portrayed visually and what happens in them to give SFX relief).

 

HBO told them they'd love more seasons, D&D wanted to be done. They also wanted shorter seasons at the end. 

 

PERHAPS, that is budget related, but if so, they could have easily shot 5 more "people in rooms talking" episodes, where bad things happened to Dany and Gray (Grey?) Worm, that helped explain their hatred of Westeros (really, I can't blame Gray Worm here at all, everything he cared for died in the West).

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

HBO told them they'd love more seasons, D&D wanted to be done. They also wanted shorter seasons at the end. 

 

PERHAPS, that is budget related, but if so, they could have easily shot 5 more "people in rooms talking" episodes, where bad things happened to Dany and Gray (Grey?) Worm, that helped explain their hatred of Westeros (really, I can't blame Gray Worm here at all, everything he cared for died in the West).

Hmmm, so the showrunners are likely just burned out and want to be done. That's unfortunate.

 

Still, they should have lobbied for a full-length season. A bunch of these problems go away if they give us four more episodes packed between the six we already have. That slows everything down considerably and allows the endgame to make more sense and feel natural instead of forced and rushed.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Possibly, though it wouldn’t surprise me if he pursued Jon immediately after the battle. I think the rift in camps could be immediate, which would allow Tyrion to stay away from her entirely.

 

As horrified as Jon is, I don't think that changes his stance.  He's still Ned's honor-bound son.  I don't think he allows a rift to form to allow that.

 

Tyrion's sense of loyalty is pretty strong too, but I guess we'll see!

[Doomtints]

HBO has been known to cut shows when the budget gets out of control. Clearly GoT was not "cut" or cancelled but as the actor salaries in this show were getting quite high, HBO knew the cost going in to the last season and could certainly have opted to "speed things up."

 

If actors are paid by episode, we are seeing some pretty long episodes now. 

 

I think HBO is willing to allow some shows "open budgets" but then gets concerned if this is taken advantage of.

 

Vinyl burned through $100M in one year -- axed.

 

Deadwood was not cancelled, HBO decided the pay raises in the actor contracts were untenable and decided to not take the options on any contracts.

 

Carnivale was cancelled because the showrunner would not accept a budget cut.

 

With GoT, HBO was in a position where they could not cut the show completely. The show had to be wrapped up or the HBO brand would have been hurt. The show is a victim of its success and HBO wrapped up the show as quickly as it could.

 

And I'm sorry but there were a couple of seasons where nothing of interest was happening. Previous seasons had a lot of filler, which surely HBO could see. If the Bran story line ends up being nothing, that's a heck of a lot of filler right there.

[Mr. Brooks]

Without Bran becoming the three eyed raven, Jon never finds out that he's the rightful heir to the throne, and without Jon finding that out, Daenerys never flips out and burns kings landing to the ground. So I don't understand those saying that the Bran story line hasn't gone anywhere.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Carnivale was cancelled because the showrunner would not accept a budget cut.

And I'm still bitter about it. Damn, I loved that show.

[Doomtints]

 

Without Bran becoming the three eyed raven, Jon never finds out that he's the rightful heir to the throne, and without Jon finding that out, Daenerys never flips out and burns kings landing to the ground. So I don't understand those saying that the Bran story line hasn't gone anywhere.

 

We still don't know what the heck a three eyed raven is.