Winds of Winter

[Mike Sixel]

  On 5/6/2019 at 2:04 PM, Vanimal46 said:

I think Jaime was just keeping Brienne away from the situation. He needs to face Cersei alone... I think he realizes she's a monster and will do the right thing by killing her himself.

That was my thought.

[Mike Sixel]

  On 5/6/2019 at 2:05 PM, gunnarthor said:

The dragon was killed because the show needed to make things harder for the good guys. Cercei is able to arm King's Landing to the teeth b/c that's another obstacle for Jon/Dany to overcome. None of it makes sense anymore.

 

I've gotten to the point where I just ignore the stupid actions of the characters/plot, the show runners simply lost control of this ship. Just enjoy watching the battle scenes. I don't think I'm invested in any character anymore.

I'm the opposite. The show runners are terrible at battle and war strategy, so I prefer the character work. There are plenty of ways to equalize the battle without stupidity.

 

Though, I do agree the dragons pose a real problem to any realistic defense.

[Mike Sixel]

Why does Cersei honor the parlay? Why not just kill Dany and her advisors right there? It would have been in character.

 

Does Euron figure out the real father given Tyrion's speech?

[Mike Sixel]

Why didn't the dragons fly really high and scout?

 

Does Dany underestimate everyone?

 

Why not go back East, and rule that continent, and let Jon have the West?

 

Humans could have just sailed to the other continent, and not died fighting death.

 

The Jon exit scene looked like a goodbye from the North....

[Vanimal46]

  On 5/6/2019 at 2:23 PM, Mike Sixel said:

Why didn't the dragons fly really high and scout?

 

Does Dany underestimate everyone?

 

Why not go back East, and rule that continent, and let Jon have the West?

 

Humans could have just sailed to the other continent, and not died fighting death.

 

The Jon exit scene looked like a goodbye from the North....

Dany does underestimate everyone... What do they think Cersei was doing while they were fighting the Night King? They were aware of the giant freaking bow as a weapon... Yet that wasn't discussed during their war strategy meeting.

[gunnarthor]

I don't think this person liked the show - https://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/184686676587/thoughts-on-804

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

  On 5/6/2019 at 2:50 PM, gunnarthor said:

I don't think this person liked the show - https://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/184686676587/thoughts-on-804

There are Western vs Eastern race issues, imo.

 

As for the Sansa stuff, that was her journey. She rationalizes like anyone that has lived thru trauma does, by saying it made her better. That actually seems realistic as a response. Doesn't mean it was the only way she could have gotten there....

 

I agree with a lot of this article. It has occurred because they only bought seven years, and because few wanted to write and act for more than that, I'd guess. They are rushing thru the parts where characters get to where they are over time.

 

Sansa and Arya don't like Dany because she wants to rule them, not because she's Jon's girlfriend, that part is all wrong in the article.

[Vanimal46]

The internet sees everything... When did they have time to open a Starbucks in Winterfell?

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 5/6/2019 at 4:11 PM, Vanimal46 said:

The internet sees everything... When did they have time to open a Starbucks in Winterfell?

 

the first time I saw this online today, I thought it was a fake! But nope. 

[Mike Sixel]

Yes, Yes, Yes.....

 

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/6/18531053/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-4-exit-survey

[Mike Sixel]

And this:

 

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/6/18531162/game-of-thrones-last-of-the-starks-cersei-daenerys-standoff

[Vanimal46]

Sigh... All of these articles I can agree with. It's starting to feel rushed and incomplete on several plot developments.

 

At this point I feel confident Cersei and Dany aren't going to be on the iron throne. The one character that would make me mad if he is named king of the 7 kingdoms is Bran.... Please don't let it be Bran.

[Mike Sixel]

It's definitely rushed. 10 seasons would have been better, imo. But, at some point, everyone wants to move on (and they likely paid for 7)....

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 5/6/2019 at 4:46 PM, Vanimal46 said:

Sigh... All of these articles I can agree with. It's starting to feel rushed and incomplete on several plot developments.

At this point I feel confident Cersei and Dany aren't going to be on the iron throne. The one character that would make me mad if he is named king of the 7 kingdoms is Bran.... Please don't let it be Bran.

 

I can't decide if I feel this way on my own, or the articles are pushing me there.....but I enjoy the articles......and I probably like the show more than this series of posts shows. 

 

It's still good, it just isn't GREAT anymore.....IMO

[Vanimal46]

  On 5/6/2019 at 4:51 PM, Mike Sixel said:

I can't decide if I feel this way on my own, or the articles are pushing me there.....but I enjoy the articles......and I probably like the show more than this series of posts shows.

 

It's still good, it just isn't GREAT anymore.....IMO

The articles are helping me get to this point admittedly. I still like the show quite a bit.

 

I really want to get an explanation about the Night King... Since that was 7+ seasons of build up. It feels like we're not getting our payout there at all.

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 5/6/2019 at 4:55 PM, Vanimal46 said:

The articles are helping me get to this point admittedly. I still like the show quite a bit.

I really want to get an explanation about the Night King... Since that was 7+ seasons of build up. It feels like we're not getting our payout there at all.

 

After Sanderson or someone writes the last book or two after Martin passes, we'll know. You'll be alive then, I probably will be.....

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 5/6/2019 at 4:55 PM, Vanimal46 said:

The articles are helping me get to this point admittedly. I still like the show quite a bit.

I really want to get an explanation about the Night King... Since that was 7+ seasons of build up. It feels like we're not getting our payout there at all.

 

happy birthday!

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 5/6/2019 at 4:50 PM, Mike Sixel said:

It's definitely rushed. 10 seasons would have been better, imo. But, at some point, everyone wants to move on (and they likely paid for 7)....

 

I've always defended D&D but this has been rushed.  I hope at some point we find out why things were so condensed.  It feels like last year needed more meat in building the Dany-Jon relationship.  This season should hvae been 85% Night King for 10 episodes.  Then another season on Cersei.

 

As you say, this is far too condensed.  Dany's turn to Mad Queen is not going to feel earned.  Jon and Dany's relationship feels rushed.  The military points feel like ambushes that don't make sense.  

 

I don't like it.  I wonder if it's the producers or actors ready to move on or costs, but this is a problem.

 

Also, for the other points about weakening Dany - GRRM created an entire plot (that consumed almost an entire book and will consume another entire book) on building an enemy for Dany to weaken her.  So this is coming in the books too, but in an even more contrived and ridiculous way IMO.

[gunnarthor]

 

  On 5/6/2019 at 7:06 PM, TheLeviathan said:

 

 

Also, for the other points about weakening Dany - GRRM created an entire plot (that consumed almost an entire book and will consume another entire book) on building an enemy for Dany to weaken her.  So this is coming in the books too, but in an even more contrived and ridiculous way IMO.

I'd disagree with that sentiment. Aegon VI was referenced in earlier books as the Mummer's Dragon and the Blackfyre rebellion (and Bittersteel/Blood Raven) has been mentioned prominently. While Dany will probably be weakened fighting Aegon (or deal with her evil breakdown, depending on what internet theory you trust), it's at least been established.

 

In the show, nearly all the set pieces have been made and the script needs to fit it. So somehow a fleet with magical crossbows not only spies the good guys but also gets perfect shots (except when aiming at Dany). Dany, with small dragons, could destroy several armies and sacked three cities. But on a large dragon against 11 ships, she retreats and lets her fleet get destroyed.

 

The King's landing stuff is worse - a few seasons ago we see Cercei is hated/mistrusted by everyone. She destroys half the city, including the main religious site. We saw the city revolt against much stronger Joffrey (including several riots and general sense of mistrust) and now the city runs to Cercei so she has de facto hostages. The throne was bankrupt so - viola - they get enough money from sacking Highgarden to hire mercenaries and, apparently, built hundreds of said magical crossbows.

 

The show is still entertaining but it's not good by any stretch. It reminds me of the bad plotting in the Star Wars prequels but, again, more entertaining.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 5/7/2019 at 12:54 AM, gunnarthor said:

I'd disagree with that sentiment. Aegon VI was referenced in earlier books as the Mummer's Dragon and the Blackfyre rebellion (and Bittersteel/Blood Raven) has been mentioned prominently. While Dany will probably be weakened fighting Aegon (or deal with her evil breakdown, depending on what internet theory you trust), it's at least been established.

 

She almost certainly will be, he's all but said the book after Winds of Winter will be called Dance of Dragons.  He wants to have that fight and it will almost certainly result in a serious diminishing of strength for Dany.

 

And the entire premise is contrived.  He reached a point, like the show, where he realized he had pacing problems with her age and her consolidation of power and there was no realistic way for anyone in Westeros to put up a fight with what she accumulated.  So what did he do?  He decided to spend pages and pages suggesting that maybe the Mountain didn't kill the real baby and there was another Targ in the mix.  And he gave this Targ the Golden Company.  And had him reach Westeros first and start courting allies.  

 

It's fairly evident to me where this takes Dany's story and how it will weaken her in the process.  Again, many of the issues the show is struggling with are the very ones GRRM hasn't found a way to write his way out of either.  I just wish the show had been able to take more time telling this endgame.  They're reaching the same point but I worry the show will not feel as authentic because it rushed too quickly through some very important changes.  (In particular, Dany from savior and genuinely good person to the real final villain.  That is GRRM's plan, but he would have, had he written his books less aimlessly so he could finish them, probably brought her there in a more satisfying way)

[Mike Sixel]

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/7/18535313/ask-the-maester-dragonslaying-cersei-daenerys

 

some great history in the first answer.....haven't even read the rest yet.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

  On 5/6/2019 at 2:23 PM, Mike Sixel said:

Why didn't the dragons fly really high and scout?

Does Dany underestimate everyone?

Why not go back East, and rule that continent, and let Jon have the West?

Humans could have just sailed to the other continent, and not died fighting death.

The Jon exit scene looked like a goodbye from the North....

Yeah, pretty much all of this.

 

The show is really letting me down right now.

 

First off, Cersei. The show spent too much time showing how incompetent she is. When the Golden Bank backed her again, all I could say is "why?" It doesn't make sense. Banks survive through repayment and giving Cersei all she wants is gambling, not actual banking.

 

Two big problems I see:

 

1. The Night King was a bait-and-switch. He had no backstory, no real story at all, just a Big Bad coming to get the good guys. And then they displace him pretty quickly and all is better now. Which brings us around to fighting Cersei again, ugh...

 

2. The real battle - and one far more interesting than dumb ass Cersei Lannister - is Jon versus Daenerys. It's a battle neither wants to fight but is basically inevitable, as everyone around them is drawing battle lines whether the two lovebirds want it or not. It's an interesting battle because it's one with no clear sides and certainly no good versus bad.

[Vanimal46]

The Night King story is incredibly disappointing. How can you build up something for 7+ seasons then make it so easy to kill him?

 

My friend brought up a great point about the dragon being killed... You mean to tell us Dany could raid 3 LARGE cities with baby dragons in previous seasons, then fly away scared with FULLY GROWN dragons because of a fleet of ships? B.S.

 

They wrote the script this season like Dany forgot everything she learned in the past taking over cities.

[Mike Sixel]

Also, zero percent chance they could hit a dragon in flight that easily. The show runners are just being lazy in equaling out the fight.

 

And yes, the Night King story line went from cool idea to crap fast.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 5/7/2019 at 6:28 PM, Vanimal46 said:

The Night King story is incredibly disappointing. How can you build up something for 7+ seasons then make it so easy to kill him?
 

 

It's a classic fantasy/sci-fi problem.  How do you make someone powerful but not too powerful?  They made the NK a force, but built in vampire rules and a one-hit kill function.  

 

Ultimately I think the problem is that everything is in a rush to the end.  These things need to breathe more or they feel incomplete.

[Mike Sixel]

Everyone dies but Gendry, new ruler of the seven kingdoms. Not really my guess...

[gunnarthor]

 

  On 5/7/2019 at 7:12 PM, TheLeviathan said:

It's a classic fantasy/sci-fi problem.  How do you make someone powerful but not too powerful?  They made the NK a force, but built in vampire rules and a one-hit kill function.  

 

Ultimately I think the problem is that everything is in a rush to the end.  These things need to breathe more or they feel incomplete.

I thought that the fight with the Night's King would take several episodes. That we'd see a huge battle outside Winterfell that the bad guys dominate and then the heroes would be forced to defend a castle that's literally called "winter fell". We'd have an episode where Jon and/or Dany does something extremely reckless, maybe retrieving an artifact from beyond the wall (Horn of Winter?) that would help the good guys. And then a third episode where the bad guys finally storm the walls while Jon/Dany race home to save the day. After the Others are done, they'd deal with the Golden Company and Cercei fairly easily. But, nope. 

[Vanimal46]

  On 5/7/2019 at 7:37 PM, Mike Sixel said:

Everyone dies but Gendry, new ruler of the seven kingdoms. Not really my guess...

Everyone dies, and the last frame we see is Bran sitting in the courtyard wondering where everyone is...

 

*Fade to Black*

[Brock Beauchamp]

  On 5/7/2019 at 6:28 PM, Vanimal46 said:

The Night King story is incredibly disappointing. How can you build up something for 7+ seasons then make it so easy to kill him?

 

My friend brought up a great point about the dragon being killed... You mean to tell us Dany could raid 3 LARGE cities with baby dragons in previous seasons, then fly away scared with FULLY GROWN dragons because of a fleet of ships? B.S.

 

They wrote the script this season like Dany forgot everything she learned in the past taking over cities.

The dragon death was BS and lazy.

 

The fleet emerged from a bay surrounded by hills. No way does Dany assault from the front. Hide the dragons behind the hills, flank the fleet from both sides, and decimate it in one pass before anyone in the ships can even train their weapons on the targets.

 

The entire dragon strategy has been awful this entire season. Time and time again, it requires rampant stupidity by Dany and/or Jon to make them ineffective.

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 5/7/2019 at 7:56 PM, Brock Beauchamp said:

The dragon death was BS and lazy.

The fleet emerged from a bay surrounded by hills. No way does Dany assault from the front. Hide the dragons behind the hills, flank the fleet from both sides, and decimate it in one pass before anyone in the ships can even train their weapons on the targets.

The entire dragon strategy has been awful this entire season. Time and time again, it requires rampant stupidity by Dany and/or Jon to make them ineffective.

 

In fairness, Jon had barely ridden a dragon before.....it probably takes a bit to learn to control them. But ya, just stupid.

 

I hate it when books and shows rely on smart people being stupid to move the plot forward. So lazy.*

 

*good golly I'm going to get roasted when I eventually publish my novel(s) and short stories for stuff ....