Manchester Bombing

[DaveW]

22 dead, many of them children.

Absolutely horrific, I am in London currently and it's definitely an eerie feeling in town as people wake up to all of this madness. People just out having a good time going to a concert, and it ends like this.

ugh. this world sometimes.

[glunn]

So sad.

[Vanimal46]

Awful news... Targeting children attending an Ariana Grande concert. Sad, really.

[Mike Sixel]

Evil losers is a good description, frankly.

[TheLeviathan]

This scourge really has to be stopped. It's an affront to all we value.

[Vanimal46]

 

This scourge really has to be stopped. It's an affront to all we value.

 

I doubt this is an easy question to answer, but how do we stop it? They continue to recruit and brainwash children to do these evil things... And it seems like every time we eliminate a cell of terrorists, others come out of the woodwork looking to avenge their deaths. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

I doubt this is an easy question to answer, but how do we stop it? They continue to recruit and brainwash children to do these evil things... And it seems like every time we eliminate a cell of terrorists, others come out of the woodwork looking to avenge their deaths. 

 

Not by killing innocent people in the Mid-East.....I know this answer sucks, but being fully engaged in the area, importing more of our culture of freedom there (w/o imposing it), and working hard to educate and inform the populace. In other words, decades of work. And, even then, there will always be terrorists. You can never eliminate them, never. You can only hope to decrease their proliferation and effectiveness. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Not by killing innocent people in the Mid-East.....I know this answer sucks, but being fully engaged in the area, importing more of our culture of freedom there (w/o imposing it), and working hard to educate and inform the populace. In other words, decades of work. And, even then, there will always be terrorists. You can never eliminate them, never. You can only hope to decrease their proliferation and effectiveness. 

 

That's a big part of it.  And, IMO, at some point we have to hope there is some kind of event that unifies that various sects of Islam so this kind of splintering isn't so violent.  Christians have split many times over and remained amicable, but the various sects of Islam hate each other almost as much as they hate anyone else.

 

I don't know what that unifying event could be (and I hope it isn't a violent thing) but short of that I'm not sure how we quell the various in-fighting to allow a more progressive, moderate view of the religion to win out.  Especially given the lack of real democracy in many of the most prominent nations.

[Mike Sixel]

except there are also economic terrorists, and there will be some other group eventually. Violence will always look like the right answer to a set of people. Now that it is easy to make weapons that kill a lot of people, I don't know how you totally stop it...

[TheLeviathan]

 

except there are also economic terrorists, and there will be some other group eventually. Violence will always look like the right answer to a set of people. Now that it is easy to make weapons that kill a lot of people, I don't know how you totally stop it...

 

Well right, but we aren't talking about an end to the violence between humans though are we?  I thought we were talking specifically about this scourge....

[Mike Sixel]

Fair, I thought it was clear I was talking terrorism broadly in part of that post.

 

If we only are talking about this scourge, decades of work is needed, imo. It isn't just the terrorists educating people to believe certain things, it is entire nations (including our "friends" the Saudis) that don't lead to much peace.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Fair, I thought it was clear I was talking terrorism broadly in part of that post.

 

If we only are talking about this scourge, decades of work is needed, imo. It isn't just the terrorists educating people to believe certain things, it is entire nations (including our "friends" the Saudis) that don't lead to much peace.

 

That's what I was sort of getting at in my last post.  Your plan is essential, but without accepting leadership it won't work.  Hell, without less oppressive leadership that stamps it out before it starts.

 

The splintering is, I think, too little talked about on this issue.  The infighting within the various groups has made governance and peace really unstable.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Christians have split many times over and remained amicable, 

I think you might fudging your history (even recently) a bit here.

[drjim]

 

I think you might fudging your history (even recently) a bit here.

 

To put it mildly.

 

EDIT: But, similar to the Muslim infighting now, the violence from intra-religious splits is always a little more complicated than religion.

[drjim]

 

Well right, but we aren't talking about an end to the violence between humans though are we?  I thought we were talking specifically about this scourge....

 

I sometimes wonder if this is just the flavor of the day.

[Craig Arko]

 

I sometimes wonder if this is just the flavor of the day.

Why would we think it's anything else? Is the modern era special somehow?

 

Welcome to the human condition.

[drjim]

 

Why would we think it's anything else? Is the modern era special somehow?

 

Welcome to the human condition.

 

I meant the Islamic extremism aspect of the violence rather than just violence in general.

 

I do think the modern era is special in some sense, the violent death rate keeps dropping.

[Craig Arko]

 

I meant the Islamic extremism aspect of the violence rather than just violence in general.

 

I do think the modern era is special in some sense, the violent death rate keeps dropping.

Depends on where you are.

 

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/violence/by-country/

[DaveW]

The guy that carried it out was born, raised and lived in Manchester his whole life.

 

"Easy" fixes like: walls, refugee bans, "wars" on Islam etc won't work.

 

It's time for something long term and real in these discussions. Not baseless racist rhetoric.

[Vanimal46]

 

The guy that carried it out was born, raised and lived in Manchester his whole life.

"Easy" fixes like: walls, refugee bans, "wars" on Islam etc won't work.

It's time for something long term and real in these discussions. Not baseless racist rhetoric.

 

Agreed... It seems like the biggest issue is no matter where these people live, terrorist groups know how to reach and recruit young, impressionable people.  

[Craig Arko]

 

Agreed... It seems like the biggest issue is no matter where these people live, terrorist groups know how to reach and recruit young, impressionable people.  

As does pretty much any other kind of cult. This is not a unique problem.

[DaveW]

Hillary had a lot of faults, but her talking about building bridges not walls has a lot of relevance here.

 

Instead of ****ting on Islam, why not educate and reach out to Muslims who are feeling persecuted (for whatever reason). Why not reach out to the vunerable and lend a hand?

 

It's not a short term fix, it will take generations, but it's time to start fixing it now.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

As does pretty much any other kind of cult. This is not a unique problem.

I somewhat disagree. Every cult is different and has different numbers attached to it. The bigger the number, the bigger the problem. There are different levels of "not unique".

 

I'm an Atheist, I don't care if you are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc., etc... Secularism should rule the day. It is really a display of being advanced in rational thought.

 

Islamism has been growing pretty rapidly since WWII and millions of people adhere to that fundamentalist system of belief. Because of this, it breeds militancy. In every area, someone wants to take it to the next level... hence Al Qaeda, Islamic State, Hezbollah, etc., etc.

 

I don't want anyone who reads this to think I am sitting on my soap box, spewing hate towards Muslims. It is just the reality of these times. I want to embrace everyone.

 

The world has a problem on it's hands and it is up to the rational thinkers of all persuasions to find a way to sink the ship of Radical Islam and Radical Everything. Fear mongering only exasperates the problem. The exasperaters are ignorant, opportunist people who perpetuate hate.

[Craig Arko]

Well, go bomb the hell out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria, killing plenty of civilians including children, and then predict the response.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

Well, go bomb the hell out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria, killing plenty of civilians including children, and then predict the response.

That's not what I am saying. There are ways to defeat bad idealism, away from violence. This is why there should be no knee jerk reactions. A worldwide secular think tank would be a good start. Nowhere in my post did I advocate for war or violence. I'm sad that is how you read my post.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I don't want anyone who reads this to think I am sitting on my soap box, spewing hate towards Muslims. It is just the reality of these times. I want to embrace everyone.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here, if not blaming the religion instead of radicalized individuals.  And I think it's naive to believe that radicalization or cult-like mentalities are exclusive to religions.  I'd argue that Trumpism, the Tea-Party, and white nationalism are secular radical ideologies that are capable of great harm, though perhaps not often through the vehicle of terror.

 

Because the Manchester attack and recent other American attacks have been unleashed by people who were citizens or the like--these individuals were not exclusively a product of a backwoods, isolated culture--our capacity to shift the burden to Islam or some-such other Otherness doesn't make sense to me.    

 

Dismantling all religion will only cause desperate people to rally around some other icon/cause to find the meaning they lack in their lives.   WII is the start of the terrorist era, not because of something that happened within Islam, but because the West redrew the borders of countries without regard to their cultural integrity--that these countries happened to be Muslim is largely a coincidence, whatever their religion, the people of that region would have still have inherited a legacy of eventual violence--these people rallied around Islam because it was there to rally around, and its more extremist notions became tools for those wishing to capitalize on generational anger.  

 

IMHO, as long as we allow our world economy to make winner's and loser's along geographical boundaries, the so-called winners will face terror from the so-called losers.   Regional-based terror, or class-based terror, is no better than Religious-based terror. 

 

 

[Bark's Lounge]

 

I'm not really sure what you're saying here, if not blaming the religion instead of radicalized individuals.  And I think it's naive to believe that radicalization or cult-like mentalities are exclusive to religions.  I'd argue that Trumpism, the Tea-Party, and white nationalism are secular radical ideologies that are capable of great harm, though perhaps not often through the vehicle of terror.

 

Because the Manchester attack and recent other American attacks have been unleashed by people who were citizens or the like--these individuals were not exclusively a product of a backwoods, isolated culture--our capacity to shift the burden to Islam or some-such other Otherness doesn't make sense to me.    

 

Dismantling all religion will only cause desperate people to rally around some other icon/cause to find the meaning they lack in their lives.   WII is the start of the terrorist era, not because of something that happened within Islam, but because the West redrew the borders of countries without regard to their cultural integrity--that these countries happened to be Muslim is largely a coincidence, whatever their religion, the people of that region would have still have inherited a legacy of eventual violence--these people rallied around Islam because it was there to rally around, and its more extremist notions became tools for those wishing to capitalize on generational anger.  

 

IMHO, as long as we allow our world economy to make winner's and loser's along geographical boundaries, the so-called winners will face terror from the so-called losers.   Regional-based terror, or class-based terror, is no better than Religious-based terror. 

I love you Pseudo, but I think you just spin doctored me and everything you said paints me like some Islamaphobe. I don't like religion, but I get it, and it certainly needs it's checks and balances, just like the government. If you let it run rampant bad things will happen.

 

In a just world, people will put aside their weird beliefs, and focus on the human condition. (not likely)

[PseudoSABR]

 

I love you Pseudo, but I think you just spin doctored me and everything you said paints me like some Islamaphobe. I don't like religion, but I get it, and it certainly needs it's checks and balances, just like the government. If you let it run rampant bad things will happen.

 

In a just world, people will put aside their weird beliefs, and focus on the human condition. (not likely)

I don't mean to paint you in any which way. Honestly.  I wasn't sure what you meant.  I'm worried about that kind of thinking generally so I tried to address it broadly, sorry if it seemed directed at you.

 

On the issue: I guess it's hard to discern what weird is; people cling to weird of all different stripes and group together unreasonably and fervently to find meaning--the weird is just the vehicle, not the source of the hate.  Religion happens to be the readily available vehicle in most places that face any scale of strife.

 

My point generally is that you can't root out what it is about Islam, or whatever-ism, that that may portend violence; it's a foolhardy exercise.  Rather it's better to address the underlying issues that lay the ground work for organized, radical, ideological terror.   People will group together by whatever they can to resist the depravity of their existence, esp. over generations.   We could abolish religion, and the depravity of the human condition in some places would necessitate the invention of some other institutional belief that went some name other than religion. 

[drivlikejehu]

This is what happens when the government appeases and openly protects criminal and extremist elements of the Muslim community. This is in the same area where Muslim men were essentially allowed to use white schoolgirls as sex slaves for years without the slightest concern from the police.

[drjim]

 

This is what happens when the government appeases and openly protects criminal and extremist elements of the Muslim community. This is in the same area where Muslim men were essentially allowed to use white schoolgirls as sex slaves for years without the slightest concern from the police.

 

I was intrigued enough to look this up. Please tell me this is based on something more than infowars.