Cubs, Maddon angry over slide rule call

[gunnarthor]

http://m.cubs.mlb.com/news/article/230091760/cubs-cardinals-talk-slide-interference-call/

 

Cubs were upset about a call on Ian Happ's slide into second. The pitcher's throw was pretty bad making a double play impossible but Happ over slid the base so a double play was called anyway, with no throw. A few pretty good quotes in there.

 

"There was nothing malicious about [Happ's] slide," Cubs starter Jon Lester said. "He slid three inches past the bag, and they got a double play. The rule was meant to be for guys making dirty slides, sliding late, taking guys out. There was nothing wrong with that slide whatsoever."

 

Cubs manager Maddon was more upset -

"I have no idea why these rules are a part of our game," Maddon said. "That had a tremendous impact on today's game, where outs are rewarded based on a fabricated rule. It's created under the umbrella of safety. You slide directly over the bag and you're called out where there's no chance for the runner to be thrown out at first, and there was nothing egregiously dangerous on the part of our runner.

"Don't give me hyperbole and office-created rules about reaching the bag. When you're sliding, and you have momentum, you keep going. There was no malicious intent whatsoever.

"The rule does not belong in the game. I'm not blaming the umpires. I cannot disagree more with the spirit of the rule."

 

Maddon also raised a pretty good point - Happ's slide was safe although he went off the bag while the Cardinals managed to put a very hard slide into the Cubs earlier that was 'legal' under the rules but was clearly more dangerous to the shortstop on the play. Video of that slide is in the article, too.

 

My guess is that since this is a game in May, it doesn't matter, even if it is Cubs/Cards. But if this call was made in the playoffs, it would be a much bigger issue. Eventually, I think the umps need to have discretion on these types of plays where a double play is likely not possible or the interference was minimal. Happ's a rookie (he hit a home run earlier!) but he'll learn how to bust up a throw without going off the bag. But having a zero tolerance policy is silly.

 

[jimmer]

Yeah, last week I bought tickets to see the Iowa Cubs and Salt Lake Bees this past Saturday.  Really wanted to see Happ. And that was the day he got promoted. If I had gone Friday night, I would have seen him go 3-5 with two SB.

[Oldgoat_MN]

I think safety is really important. And saying that he slid "3 inches past the bag" is not at all true. He was determined to take out the SS on that play.

If you want to keep such a rule I can see throwing the runner out of the game. I certainly do not feel that a guy who was going to be safe no matter what the runner did should be called out.

If they genuinely had a play on the batter at first then it gets down to 'how much is too much'. That is very difficult to put blanket rules on. Though I do think the other two videos you posted, especially the one where Blackmon grabs the 2B foot, should result in being tossed out of the game and in that case, call the guy at first out, too. That's just playing dirty.

[gunnarthor]

 

I think safety is really important. And saying that he slid "3 inches past the bag" is not at all true. He was determined to take out the SS on that play.

If you want to keep such a rule I can see throwing the runner out of the game. I certainly do not feel that a guy who was going to be safe no matter what the runner did should be called out.

If they genuinely had a play on the batter at first then it gets down to 'how much is too much'. That is very difficult to put blanket rules on. Though I do think the other two videos you posted, especially the one where Blackmon grabs the 2B foot, should result in being tossed out of the game and in that case, call the guy at first out, too. That's just playing dirty.

Well, the point is if you're really concerned about player safety, the slide past the base issue isn't a fix. There are plenty of examples where guys slid into the base that were much more "dangerous" than the Happ slide. So, we can go the Japanese route and have runners avoid the base if we were really into player safety (of course, we're not, we're into image like the NFL and concussions). Or we could have umpires make calls based on what was actually happening.

 

I (correctly) figured the slide rule wouldn't be a big issue after players got used to it since keeping one hand on the base isn't that hard and players have clearly adjusted while still trying to take out the pivot. But if you get a call like that in the playoffs, the internet will go nuts.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

So, we can go the Japanese route and have runners avoid the base if we were really into player safety (of course, we're not, we're into image like the NFL and concussions). Or we could have umpires make calls based on what was actually happening.

Ah yes, the "if it's not perfect, it's not worth doing" defense.

 

The game will never be 100% safe, but I think it's better to have this rule than to not have it.

[gunnarthor]

 

A

 

The game will never be 100% safe, but I think it's better to have this rule than to not have it.

Sure, but can't it be fixed? The Happ slide was a pretty safe slide. And several of the legal slides weren't particularly safe. Can't we give the umps a bit of authority on slides?  I'm not sure how that makes it not worth doing.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Sure, but can't it be fixed? The Happ slide was a pretty safe slide. And several of the legal slides weren't particularly safe. Can't we give the umps a bit of authority on slides?  I'm not sure how that makes it not worth doing.

I don't have any problem with refining the rule and its application, although I don't think umpire discretion is the way to go. Umpire discretion usually leads to deferring to the players, sometimes to the detriment of the game (pace of play, strike zone, etc.).

 

And of course, refining the rule and its application has nothing to do with Japan or the NFL either.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

And saying that he slid "3 inches past the bag" is not at all true. He was determined to take out the SS on that play.

Yeah, this was a bad slide.  I have no problem with discouraging players from sliding like that.

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v1383639883/chcstl-cubs-doubled-up-due-to-slide-violation/

[Thrylos]

 

 

"I have no idea why these rules are a part of our game," Maddon said. "That had a tremendous impact on today's game, where outs are rewarded based on a fabricated rule.

 

Memo to Maddon: 

 

a. All rules in baseball are fabricated.  No natural rules in baseball.  All outs in baseball are rewarded (sic) based on fabricated rules.

b. Quit whining because the world will start realize that you are a sore loser.

 

 

[gunnarthor]

 

I don't have any problem with refining the rule and its application, although I don't think umpire discretion is the way to go. Umpire discretion usually leads to deferring to the players, sometimes to the detriment of the game (pace of play, strike zone, etc.).

I'm not sure how else you can modify the rule though that doesn't include umpire discretion. It seems to me that it's either a bright line - you didn't always touch the bag - or some consideration can come into it.  At the end of the day, it's probably not a huge deal.  As I said, players have already adapted to the rule and Happ, a rookie, will clearly learn.