Ortiz

[big dog]

I would wish Ortiz well, but I think he's already had a pretty good run.  Not sure why he feels he needs to be upset about things long past.  Hopefully the book and interviews let him put all this aside and enjoy life a little more.

 

I wish I had such problems as "I'm an all-time Boston hero and an obvious Hall of Famer (and I made a gazillion dollars) but people didn't always play me enough."

 

 

 

[Thrylos]

 

 

 

 

• Oh, and that PED stuff that because you had the good guy image, you've inexplicably been able to avoid... 

 

Here is what the commissioner of baseball, had to say about "that PED" stuff, regarding Ortiz.

Those are the facts about the 2003 testing.

 

The rest are a witch hunt by either people who cannot hold Kelly and Ryan accountable for what they did to Ortiz while with the Twins and what they did to the Twins by getting rid of Ortiz, or Yankee's fans (it is not a coincidence that a. 2 out of the only 4 names among the 103 positives and false positives of the 2003 test were Boston Red Sox and b. the leak happened by a New York reporter.)

 

The facts are that Ortiz has never failed an MLB drug test, and according to the commissioner nobody can be sure whether his positive in 2003 in the survey testing was false or not. 

 

But, of course, the Twins and TK and TR can do "no wrong" and Ortiz is the wrong party here, because he did drugs...

[gunnarthor]

 

Can you prove that Ortiz used PEDs in Boston in 2006? 

Put up or shut up...

 

How do you feel about Ervin Santana, btw?

I think Santana used PEDs to extend and improve his career like many players. I like that he hasn't blamed his failures earlier in his career on others. 

 

As to Ortiz, since he was working out with Angel Presinal in 2006, I think that answers your question.

[Thrylos]

 

As to Ortiz, since he was working out with Angel Presinal in 2006, I think that answers your question.

 

Pedro Martinez was also working out with Presinal.  Was he a user?   Or association proves guilt?

 

Again:
Can you prove that Ortiz used PEDs?

Put up or shut up...

[ashbury]

Put up or shut up...

This is getting into bickering territory, and I suggest neither side take too absolute a stance on a topic that hasn't been settled going on 10+ years now. If there's nothing new to say, say it if you must but then move on.

[gunnarthor]

 

Pedro Martinez was also working out with Presinal.  Was he a user?   Or association proves guilt?

 

Again:
Can you prove that Ortiz used PEDs?

Put up or shut up...

Yeah, Pedro probably used. Most of the greats of the roid era probably used. If a player put up video game numbers in that era, he probably used.   

 

Your "logic" is essentially that you want a failed drug test - other than the one that was leaked. That doesn't exist so far as we know. We do know from interviews from people involved in mlb drug testing that a large number of players used, we know that use was determined in large part by locker room connections and off-season training.  We know that Ortiz continued to train with one of the few people MLB actually banned from the game because of PEDs. We know that Ortiz initially blamed his positive test result on mislabeling in the D.R. before he changed his story (which he did several times).  We know that Ortiz's baseball skills changed so much that there isn't much historical comparisons for him.  We know he broke 60 year old home run records in an era where nearly every broken HR record was tainted. So, yeah, he juiced. It would be far more shocking if he didn't juice.

[DaveW]

The Twins massively bungled the Ortiz situation, spin it all you want but it's pretty much a fact. Probably one of the worst ten moves in the history of baseball.

[DaveW]

You know you definitely did use PEDs? Ervin Santana.

 

Let's stop pretending that the holier than thou Twins are somehow "above" the whole PED issue.

[Intramural Legend]

 

You know you definitely did use PEDs? Ervin Santana.

Let's stop pretending that the holier than thou Twins are somehow "above" the whole PED issue.

 

Who absolved ES from anything?

 

My thoughts is, who cares if Ortiz used them or not.  Chances are a pretty good percentage of the pitchers he faced were also using.

 

We get it, Ortiz is hung up on the everyone doubted me.  We'll hear about it now that his book is coming out, next year when his number is retired, and then in 5 years when he is inducted into the HoF.  It's his thing.  Annoying as hell, but it's who he is.  He has always been sensitive, that is not going to change now that he has more time on his hands.

[gunnarthor]

 

You know you definitely did use PEDs? Ervin Santana.

Let's stop pretending that the holier than thou Twins are somehow "above" the whole PED issue.

Hey, look, a couple posts above you. We already discussed Santana. 

[Mike Sixel]

Can you imagine the Twins promoting people like they did Gaetti and Hrbek? We can't even get RPs up here before they are 28...

[DaveW]

The thing I will always go back to: 20 HR in 400 at bats

 

Ortiz was literally already a 30 HR guy when the Twins decided to cut him.

 

Un. Real.

[gunnarthor]

 

The thing I will always go back to: 20 HR in 400 at bats

Ortiz was literally already a 30 HR guy when the Twins decided to cut him.

Un. Real.

Different era. Jones and Kielty hit HR at about the same pace that year.  WAR has many, many flaws but Ortiz was 16th on the team in WAR that year.  He got better when he juiced.

[drjim]

 

Well, he does have a book coming out, so him talking about, you know, what's in the book and his experiences are what he's doing........

 

And, since he was actually there and some of you weren't born, I'm guessing he has more insight into what went on than we do. No idea if he's exaggerating or not, but I'm guessing his statements are at least rooted in truth.

 

Just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it.

[drjim]

 

Can you imagine the Twins promoting people like they did Gaetti and Hrbek? We can't even get RPs up here before they are 28...

 

Hard to imagine having a position player on the Twins 25 and younger. Impossible actually.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Hard to imagine having a position player on the Twins 25 and younger. Impossible actually.

 

Hrbek was promoted in 2 years, and stuck. Gaetti, in 2 years.

 

How quickly did the more recent players come up. Because no place did I talk about age at all. No. Place. 

 

But, it was great snark.

[drjim]

 

Hrbek was promoted in 2 years, and stuck. Gaetti, in 2 years.

 

How quickly did the more recent players come up. Because no place did I talk about age at all. No. Place. 

 

But, it was great snark.

 

It was definitely more snark than serious, but you literally mentioned 28 year old relievers in the comment I responded to.

[bird]

 

Ortiz as victim. Of course! Because... victim.

 

 

 

Hope he sells a ton of books. He needs the dough.

[bird]

 

Can you imagine the Twins promoting people like they did Gaetti and Hrbek? We can't even get RPs up here before they are 28...

 

 

The game is so different now.

 

Can you imagine promoting a player that quickly and having them adjust? We can't even get top picks to do that.

[Mike Sixel]

 

It was definitely more snark than serious, but you literally mentioned 28 year old relievers in the comment I responded to.

 

that was an exaggeration about the RPs still in the minors, but yes, we both tried humor/snark, and we both threw more foul ball pitches than swing and miss pitches, but I did laugh at your snark. so it worked on me.

[Shaitan]

Pro sports, where grown men get paid to act like boys.

 

It's too bad he's still carrying a grudge when the change of scenery allegedly is what made his career. 

 

But whatever. Why should I care what he thinks?

 

[Twodogs]

Maybe Boston just has better hitting coaches than the Twins??  Seems like they have had a lot of great hitters, both at home and on the road.