Article: The Elephant in the Room

[Oxtung]

"Injustice" is an entirely inappropriate overstatement to me. Surely, both the Twins, Mauer, and his agent knew what they were getting into and what the possible, or likely, implications and consequences would be by signing the type of deal they jointly entered.

 

I don't think any court in the land would find that Mauer has been done any "injustice" at all. This statement is just plain silly and absurd on its face.

Yeah, hard to get upset for a guy who entered into a legal contract knowingly and is getting paid $23M/year. The true injustice is to the fans who have funded the stadium and pay to go see the games.

[snepp]

Excuse me while I go chug a bottle of scotch.

Or anti-freeze.

[jokin]

Yeah, hard to get upset for a guy who entered into a legal contract knowingly and is getting paid $23M/year. The true injustice is to the fans who have funded the stadium and pay to go see the games.

Precisely.

[Nick Nelson]

"Injustice" is an entirely inappropriate overstatement to me. Surely, both the Twins, Mauer, and his agent knew what they were getting into and what the possible, or likely, implications and consequences would be by signing the type of deal they jointly entered.

 

I don't think any court in the land would find that Mauer has been done any "injustice" at all. This statement is just plain silly and absurd on its face.

It's not so much that it's an injustice to Mauer himself. He's making his money and he's had a couple shots in the playoffs already.

 

More so, it's an injustice to the Twins themselves and their fans. Here they have this once-in-a-generation talent, a Hall of Fame caliber player that they paid an enormous amount of money to lock up. Now they're going to waste his best remaining years in a semi-rebuilding effort rather than doing everything they reasonably can to build a contender around him? Seems like a regrettable decision to me. Considering the condition of his legs and the likelihood that he'll need to fully switch away from catcher at some point, there's a very good chance Mauer's value will start fading fast as he ages into his mid-30s and it's awfully tough to build a great roster around a fading player earning ~25% of the payroll. People in the long-term rebuild camp often overlook this.

[diehardtwinsfan]

it's awfully tough to build a great roster around a fading player earning ~25% of the payroll. People in the long-term rebuild camp often overlook this.

Detroit is going to figure this out the hard way in a few years.

[jokin]

It's not so much that it's an injustice to Mauer himself. He's making his money and he's had a couple shots in the playoffs already.

 

More so, it's an injustice to the Twins themselves and their fans. Here they have this once-in-a-generation talent, a Hall of Fame caliber player that they paid an enormous amount of money to lock up. Now they're going to waste his best remaining years in a semi-rebuilding effort rather than doing everything they reasonably can to build a contender around him? Seems like a regrettable decision to me. Considering the condition of his legs and the likelihood that he'll need to fully switch away from catcher at some point, there's a very good chance Mauer's value will start fading fast as he ages into his mid-30s and it's awfully tough to build a great roster around a fading player earning ~25% of the payroll. People in the long-term rebuild camp often overlook this.

If you take out the part of your post that starts with "It's not so much...", and ends with "...More so,", I'm in 100% agreement with you. I argued along those lines previously this spring that the nightmare of 2011 so coldcocked the Twins that they were unable to move forward with "the plan" as envisioned in 2009- and were returning to their comfort zone of the late 70s/early 80s and 90s years of meciocrity while they pare the payroll of existing big $ contracts.

[Oxtung]

It's not so much that it's an injustice to Mauer himself. He's making his money and he's had a couple shots in the playoffs already.

 

More so, it's an injustice to the Twins themselves and their fans. Here they have this once-in-a-generation talent, a Hall of Fame caliber player that they paid an enormous amount of money to lock up. Now they're going to waste his best remaining years in a semi-rebuilding effort rather than doing everything they reasonably can to build a contender around him? Seems like a regrettable decision to me. Considering the condition of his legs and the likelihood that he'll need to fully switch away from catcher at some point, there's a very good chance Mauer's value will start fading fast as he ages into his mid-30s and it's awfully tough to build a great roster around a fading player earning ~25% of the payroll. People in the long-term rebuild camp often overlook this.

This is just my gut feeling but I don't think the Pohlad's really care. They seem to be in this for the business reasons more than the fanatical fan reasons. As long as the Twins are making them money everything else is a secondary concern. Now that's not to say that they don't want to win. I just think it's obvious they value the fiscal earning power of the Twins over the social or emotional bonuses of putting a championship caliber squad on the field. I don't think we should fault them for this either. The Twins certainly aren't a charity the Pohlad's should be expected to donate money to so they can win a championship. Even having an owner whose driven by fandom and that wants to do whatever he can to win isn't necessarily a good thing. Do you end up with Mark Cuban or Daniel Snyder?

 

Sorry, while my original point was related to your post I seem to have wandered off somewhere in the middle. I am not trying to imply that you have made any claims about the Twins ownership.

[Shane Wahl]

It's not so much that it's an injustice to Mauer himself. He's making his money and he's had a couple shots in the playoffs already.

 

More so, it's an injustice to the Twins themselves and their fans. Here they have this once-in-a-generation talent, a Hall of Fame caliber player that they paid an enormous amount of money to lock up. Now they're going to waste his best remaining years in a semi-rebuilding effort rather than doing everything they reasonably can to build a contender around him? Seems like a regrettable decision to me. Considering the condition of his legs and the likelihood that he'll need to fully switch away from catcher at some point, there's a very good chance Mauer's value will start fading fast as he ages into his mid-30s and it's awfully tough to build a great roster around a fading player earning ~25% of the payroll. People in the long-term rebuild camp often overlook this.

 

This is exactly why I don't like to hear talk of waiting for 2014 or 2015.

[PseudoSABR]

This is just my gut feeling but I don't think the Pohlad's really care.

Gut feeling? The Pohlads could be far more interested in their legacy than profit for all we know (after all owning a baseball team is rather vane, a self-effigy of sorts).

[cr9617]

It's sad to look back at 2006 and how well positioned that team was for a run of success. 25YO MVP Morneau. 23YO MVP-caliber Mauer. 27YO Cy Young Santana. 22YO rookie sensation Liriano. Awesome young bullpen led by Nathan. Hunter, Cuddyer, Bartlett...

 

And yet, not one playoff victory since that season. Sigh.

I can't help but think of how the Twins celebrated after coming from behind and winning the central on the final day of the season. They were already in the playoffs, and there they were celebrating like the just won the World Series. I thought it was silly. I didn't get it.

 

Then the playoffs start and they forgot to showup. This organization seems to think that's the ultimate goal...to win the Central. In the end, it just isn't that big a deal.

[Steve Lein]

"Injustice" is an entirely inappropriate overstatement to me. Surely, both the Twins, Mauer, and his agent knew what they were getting into and what the possible, or likely, implications and consequences would be by signing the type of deal they jointly entered.

 

I don't think any court in the land would find that Mauer has been done any "injustice" at all. This statement is just plain silly and absurd on its face.

That's not the type of injustice I'm talking about (his contract certainly is NOT an injustice...). You have a once in a lifetime player on your roster, and you aren't doing everything in your power to surround him with the other needs of the team to legitimately contend for a World Series title. That is the injustice.

[Steve Lein]

Not taking the BPA in the draft is a slippery slope to step on. You make excuses for doing it one year and it's not hard to come up with reasons to continue doing it every year thereafter.

The whole thing is, BPA is subjective. Was Buxton far and away a better player to draft at #2 than a pitcher like Appel? I honestly do not think so, and in such a case, the needs of the team should play a part.

[Steve Lein]

It's not so much that it's an injustice to Mauer himself. He's making his money and he's had a couple shots in the playoffs already.

 

More so, it's an injustice to the Twins themselves and their fans. Here they have this once-in-a-generation talent, a Hall of Fame caliber player that they paid an enormous amount of money to lock up. Now they're going to waste his best remaining years in a semi-rebuilding effort rather than doing everything they reasonably can to build a contender around him? Seems like a regrettable decision to me. Considering the condition of his legs and the likelihood that he'll need to fully switch away from catcher at some point, there's a very good chance Mauer's value will start fading fast as he ages into his mid-30s and it's awfully tough to build a great roster around a fading player earning ~25% of the payroll. People in the long-term rebuild camp often overlook this.

Replied before I saw Nick's response. This is exactly what I'm getting at with the word "injustice".

[jokin]

That's not the type of injustice I'm talking about (his contract certainly is NOT an injustice...). You have a once in a lifetime player on your roster, and you aren't doing everything in your power to surround him with the other needs of the team to legitimately contend for a World Series title. That is the injustice.

Yes. I think we are all in agreement that the fans are being done an injustice, not Mauer- which was what the original poster stated had been done to him.

[Shane Wahl]

The whole thing is, BPA is subjective. Was Buxton far and away a better player to draft at #2 than a pitcher like Appel? I honestly do not think so, and in such a case, the needs of the team should play a part.

I have tried to block memories of that whole discussion out! Maybe Jose Berrios will be a fast riser though.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The whole thing is, BPA is subjective. Was Buxton far and away a better player to draft at #2 than a pitcher like Appel? I honestly do not think so, and in such a case, the needs of the team should play a part.

In the case of Appel/Buxton, I wouldn't have faulted the Twins for going either way. Just speaking more in generalities about not taking the BPA.

[jokin]

In the case of Appel/Buxton, I wouldn't have faulted the Twins for going either way. Just speaking more in generalities about not taking the BPA.

What about the Scott Boras factor? The Twins were far from the only team to take a pass to avoid that guy.

[Shane Wahl]

Yes. I think we are all in agreement that the fans are being done an injustice, not Mauer- which was what the original poster stated had been done to him.

So since he is making $23 million it doesn't matter if the Twins don't try to win while he is still productive? Players are not motivated only, or primarily, by money.

[jokin]

So since he is making $23 million it doesn't matter if the Twins don't try to win while he is still productive? Players are not motivated only, or primarily, by money.

Huh? I think you are missing the point.

[Steve Lein]

Yes. I think we are all in agreement that the fans are being done an injustice, not Mauer- which was what the original poster stated had been done to him.

I don't really agree with all of that either, at least in the way I think you're trying to demonstrate. To me, it's an injustice to Mauer himself and the fans that he's not being surrounded by other needed talent that could put them over the top to contend.

[Oxtung]

Yes. I think we are all in agreement that the fans are being done an injustice, not Mauer- which was what the original poster stated had been done to him.

 

I don't really agree with all of that either, at least in the way I think you're trying to demonstrate. To me, it's an injustice to Mauer himself and the fans that he's not being surrounded by other needed talent that could put them over the top to contend.

 

You seem to be arguing there is an inherent responsibility for an employer to provide perks or bonuses to employees beyond what is stated in the employee/er contract. I would agree with that with regards to discrimination and safety, etc., but I don't think there is any obligation to provide help to an employee to do their job. In many situations that might be beneficial to do so but certainly it shouldn't be an obligation. If it is not an inherent responsibility then it can't be an injustice. So again, maybe we're just arguing semantics here about the word "injustice". On the flip side there is an obligation to the taxpayers of the state of Minnesota because of the publicly financed stadium.

[gunnarthor]

In the case of Appel/Buxton, I wouldn't have faulted the Twins for going either way. Just speaking more in generalities about not taking the BPA.

 

What about the Scott Boras factor? The Twins were far from the only team to take a pass to avoid that guy.

 

Yeah, Twins (I argued) were never going to take Appel b/c of our past history with Boras (Belcher and Lee were both Boras guys). I thought the Twins might take Zimmer but he struggled a bit. I was pretty happy with the Buxton pick and he's played great for us so far.

[Guest USAFChief]

 

That's not the type of injustice I'm talking about (his contract certainly is NOT an injustice...). You have a once in a lifetime player on your roster...

Once in a lifetime?

 

I think one would have to be pretty young, and most likely plan on not watching much baseball in a few years, to make that claim about Mauer.

[Jim H]

Actually, I think the Twins signed Mauer with the idea he would be very productive throughout his contract. I think that is fairly likely, given reasonably good health. He likely won't be close to an everyday catcher, but he will likely not be a liability defensively wherever he plays. His approach and general batting ability will allow him to maintain a high on base percentage even toward the end of his contract.

 

What I think is interesting is that the Twins seem to have a pretty good stockpile of potentially productive everyday players throughout the farm system. Some like Parmelee are ready now, some probably won't be major league ready for 5 years. A few may turn out to be high impact players, though most won't.

 

What is good, is that the Twins should have fairly productive, fairly low cost options at most?-many? positions over the next 10 years. Possible surpluses at some positions may yield trade possibilities.

 

Pitching is so volatile that it is often impossible to predict what you will have from year to year. But you can also rebuild pitching faster-if you ar lucky-because generally pitching develops faster than position players.

 

Largely, I think that the Twins have positioned themselves to be very competitive over the next ten years. Certailnly the Twins seem to have more talent in place than they seemed to in 2000, when the Twins were poised to make a nice 10 year run.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

The whole thing is, BPA is subjective. Was Buxton far and away a better player to draft at #2 than a pitcher like Appel? I honestly do not think so, and in such a case, the needs of the team should play a part.

 

In the case of Appel/Buxton, I wouldn't have faulted the Twins for going either way. Just speaking more in generalities about not taking the BPA.

 

The fact that Buxton signed and Appel turned down an overslot to go back to college is good enough reason for me to agree with the twins decision not to draft him.

[MarshalltheIrish]

Nick,

 

I agree 100%, but there's no way the front office will push for it. It's bad enough they're as awful and underwhelming as they are when the new stadium was supposed to open up greater potential, but worse that they won't even try to go for it all in Mauer's prime. I've always believed they should win at least one title with Mauer and Morneau, and even after the (excruciating) disappointment of 2006 I figured they would have a good share of opportunities. I think when they blew it in 2010 that was a huge setback, and then the utter disaster of 2011 and Bill Smith's litany of bad moves threatened to kill the team for a long time. This year they've managed to find some life with the offense and bullpen, and Mauer's turnaround in particular is an important component of that. All they need to do in the offseason to compete is add at least two solid FA starters, maybe a weapon or two more in the bullpen, and shore up the infield if necessary (hoping the best for Plouffe in the long run). A WS run would probably require a little more, but I wouldn't object to making the effort. Ryan's offseason acquisitions (aside from Marquis) have worked out fine, so him ruling out free agency after this year doesn't make any sense.

 

That said, I think the team's likely headed for another stretch akin to the early 80's and late 90's. At least in the case of the former they were growing the foundation for the 87/91 teams, and the latter were just bad teams to begin with. A dry spell like that now would indeed be an injustice to the fans.

[StormJH1]

It's not so much that it's an injustice to Mauer himself. He's making his money and he's had a couple shots in the playoffs already.

 

More so, it's an injustice to the Twins themselves and their fans. Here they have this once-in-a-generation talent, a Hall of Fame caliber player that they paid an enormous amount of money to lock up. Now they're going to waste his best remaining years in a semi-rebuilding effort rather than doing everything they reasonably can to build a contender around him? Seems like a regrettable decision to me. Considering the condition of his legs and the likelihood that he'll need to fully switch away from catcher at some point, there's a very good chance Mauer's value will start fading fast as he ages into his mid-30s and it's awfully tough to build a great roster around a fading player earning ~25% of the payroll. People in the long-term rebuild camp often overlook this.

I think that's a terrifically unique and interesting perspective, but I just don't know what the alternative was. Are you saying let Joe Mauer go play for the Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies, etc? If the argument now is that the Twins are squandering money on extending guys they shouldn't and only "semi-rebuilding", then what is the expectation for what we would have done with that extra $23 million.

 

Lots of Hall of Fame-caliber players get stuck on mid-level or even bad teams - it doesn't mean that their careers were sad. Look at three of my favorite players growing up: Ryne Sandberg, Cal Ripken, and Tony Gwynn.

 

Joe Mauer is to the Twins what Kevin Garnett was to the T-Wolves in the mid-2000's. I liked both guys and they were both very good players. But it was evident to everyone (except apparently KG himself) that he wasn't going to win anything if he was "the guy" and there wasn't much else around. His contract and his silly demands for playing with certain guys (Troy Hudson, et al) made sure that there wasn't another star as a sidekick.

 

People don't buy that logic as easily in baseball because it's a 25-man roster and everything seems more diluted. But since you could buy about 3 Willinghams or a dozen-plus Scott Diamonds for the price of one Mauer, the financials with this situation fit that same dilemma.

[savvyspy]

Its fun to speculate but the reality is this team BY CHOICE won't spend on free agent pitching, won't make trades at the deadline that meaningfully improve the roster, and have ZERO pitching prospects within 3 years of the majors that would rate as anything higher than a #4-#5 starter on a playoff team.

 

Given that, the only choice is to firesale the whole thing. Stock up on prospects, draft wisely (last 2 years have seemed better), and start making a run in 2-3 seasons.

 

To do that you MUST trade Mauer. He's the only guy with the kind of value where you can get the level of prospect you need to rebuild.

 

I'd keep a core of Plouffe and Revere and build around that. They have some nice complimentary pieces like Mastroianni and I think Dozier will be fine.

 

As was pointed out, when the bats arrive the lineup is going to be very good. It all comes down to can you draft and trade for enough pitching for it to matter.

[DPJ]

To do that you MUST trade Mauer. He's the only guy with the kind of value where you can get the level of prospect you need to rebuild.

I'd actually say Mauer has the least amount of value once you consider his contract and fact that at 29 he's no longer a fulltime catcher.

[cr9617]

Its fun to speculate but the reality is this team BY CHOICE won't spend on free agent pitching, won't make trades at the deadline that meaningfully improve the roster, and have ZERO pitching prospects within 3 years of the majors that would rate as anything higher than a #4-#5 starter on a playoff team.

 

Given that, the only choice is to firesale the whole thing. Stock up on prospects, draft wisely (last 2 years have seemed better), and start making a run in 2-3 seasons.

 

To do that you MUST trade Mauer. He's the only guy with the kind of value where you can get the level of prospect you need to rebuild.

 

I'd keep a core of Plouffe and Revere and build around that. They have some nice complimentary pieces like Mastroianni and I think Dozier will be fine.

 

As was pointed out, when the bats arrive the lineup is going to be very good. It all comes down to can you draft and trade for enough pitching for it to matter.

Plouffe and Revere as your core? Kansas City here we come..

 

Mauer is possibly the least tradeable guy on the entire roster.