Article: How Scott Diamond Continues to Shine

[jokin]

Okay, that's quite enough. The tone in this thread is turning for the worse.

Thankyou.

[Nick Nelson]

I suppose I could just step in and settle this, since I don't need to "look" anywhere to identify my own viewpoints.

 

In spring of 2011, when the Twins named Duensing as a starter very early on, I criticized the decision and heavily advocated for placing him in the bullpen. See here:

 

Unfortunately, for anyone looking past those categories, it's tough to see him sustaining the kind of success he had last year in a starting role. ... As a reliever, he would provide the Twins with an established commodity in a bullpen that lacks many. He'd be able to fully utilize his dominance against lefty swingers rather than facing starting lineups stacked with righties.

It shouldn't be difficult to see why I was open to giving him a shot this year. The rotation has been an absolute mess and Duensing has had more success as an MLB starter than most of the "alternatives" suggested by jokin will ever experience.

[jokin]

I suppose I could just step in and settle this, since I don't need to "look" anywhere to identify my own viewpoints.

 

In spring of 2011, when the Twins named Duensing as a starter very early on, I criticized the decision and heavily advocated for placing him in the bullpen. See here:

 

Unfortunately, for anyone looking past those categories, it's tough to see him sustaining the kind of success he had last year in a starting role. ... As a reliever, he would provide the Twins with an established commodity in a bullpen that lacks many. He'd be able to fully utilize his dominance against lefty swingers rather than facing starting lineups stacked with righties.

 

It shouldn't be difficult to see why I was open to giving him a shot this year. The rotation has been an absolute mess and Duensing has had more success as an MLB starter than most of the "alternatives" suggested by jokin will ever experience.

You should have stuck to your guns, Nick. Duensing had his niche role filled perfectly. (cc this to Snepp:p)

 

You are walking out on a thin limb, though, by cavalierly suggesting that Duensing will end up as the best starter out of the 6 mentioned (Duensing + Vasquez, Hendriks, Hernandez, Hermsen, Hirschfield). The rotation is a mess, this is the perfect time to find out what else you have in SP pitching depth before you start making the hard financial decisions that might include locking up Carl Pavano-type money (or more) to someone as you construct a 2013 rotation in the offseason. Nobody saw what the Twins had in Diamond, I certainly don't remember your prediction, or mine, about him as an "alternative" (more importantly, the Twins, themselves!). I'd say now is the time to find out if there are cheaper and less risky alternatives to high-dollar acquisitions. There is absolutely nothing to lose by finding out more about what you don't know, then to learn the same information that you already knew.

[Brock Beauchamp]

You should have stuck to your guns, Nick. Duensing had his niche role filled perfectly. (cc this to Snepp:p)

 

You are walking out on a thin limb, though, by cavalierly suggesting that Duensing will end up as the best starter out of the 6 mentioned (Duensing + Vasquez, Hendriks, Hernandez, Hermsen, Hirschfield). The rotation is a mess, this is the perfect time to find out what else you have in SP pitching depth before you start making the hard financial decisions that might include locking up Carl Pavano-type money (or more) to someone as you construct a 2013 rotation in the offseason. Nobody saw what the Twins had in Diamond, I certainly don't remember your prediction, or mine, about him as an "alternative" (more importantly, the Twins, themselves!). I'd say now is the time to find out if there are cheaper and less risky alternatives to high-dollar acquisitions. There is absolutely nothing to lose by finding out more about what you don't know, then to learn the same information that you already knew.

I'd leave Hendriks off that list for now. I think it's pretty apparent that Cuellar is working on something specific with him in Rochester and as soon as they feel comfortable with his progress, he'll be with the ML club.

[Nick Nelson]

I'd leave Hendriks off that list for now. I think it's pretty apparent that Cuellar is working on something specific with him in Rochester and as soon as they feel comfortable with his progress, he'll be with the ML club.

I'd leave almost everyone off that list for now. Hermsen hasn't even pitched in Triple-A, while Hernandez and Hirschfeld (seriously? Hirschfeld?) have had zero success there. These aren't top-flight prospects that you simply throw directly into an MLB rotation. Just because you haven't seen a guy before doesn't mean he's better than what you have. Plus, with the exception of Hendriks and Hernandez, none of those players are on the 40-man roster.

 

When I suggested trying Duensing in the rotation, it was simply because he was readily available and has had success as an MLB starter in the past, and at the time the Twins were trotting out Swarzak and Blackburn. That doesn't mean I think he's a viable long-term option or that I'm "continuing to insist that he's starting material" – amusing statements coming from a person accusing others of being ignorant and not taking the time to track down and accurately recap past conversations.

[Ultima Ratio]

Blinded by his half season ERA?

Nah, not blinded... I see he's figured it out.

[Badsmerf]

 

it shouldn't be difficult to see why i was open to giving him a shot this year. The rotation has been an absolute mess and duensing has had more success as an mlb starter than most of the "alternatives" suggested by jokin will ever experience.

ohhhh snap!@##w$

[snepp]

You should have stuck to your guns, Nick. Duensing had his niche role filled perfectly. (cc this to Snepp:p)

As I said, you butchered his viewpoint to support your own and were unwilling to provide proof of your exaggerated claims because they didn't exist.

[jimbo92107]

Scott Diamond's downward pitch slant makes hitters top a lot of balls, identical release point masks the pitch for a vital fraction of a second.

 

Another factor is the speed difference between his fastball and his curve. The fact that they look so alike coming out of his hand does more than create problems with pitch identification. It also creates a tendency to be early on his curve and late on his fastball, because the two aren't that far apart in speed. This should allow Diamond's infield and outfield to shade slightly to one side or the other, potentially gaining a vital step on a ball put in play.

 

One other thing that jumps out is his excellent grouping. It indicates that Diamond is spotting the ball with great precision, which implies that his style of pitching is sustainable so long as he's healthy, and I haven't seen any indication that his motion causes damage.

 

I'd love to see the pitch scatter chart on De Vries and Deduno. I bet De Vries has groupings in the corners, and Samuel Deduno's fastball looks like buck shot.

[jokin]

You should have stuck to your guns, Nick. Duensing had his niche role filled perfectly. (cc this to Snepp:p)

 

As I said, you butchered his viewpoint to support your own and were unwilling to provide proof of your exaggerated claims because they didn't exist.

 

You were asked nicely to cease and desist. Geez.

 

There were no exaggerated claims, there was no butchering of Nick's viewpoint, the debate regarding Dunce's role happened from the time Duensing was moved into the starting role, I questioned Nick's assertion that Dunce would be fine as a SP and asked Nick at the time to defend it. Feel free to check the dates when he became a SP and then search the TD archives. It isn't up to me to provide you footnotes, you are wasting everyone's time and providing nothing but white noise to this particular thread.

[Land Of 10,000 Beasts]

Great work as always Parker. Let's just all hope he can be consistent and keep this going for years to come.

[jokin]

I'd leave Hendriks off that list for now. I think it's pretty apparent that Cuellar is working on something specific with him in Rochester and as soon as they feel comfortable with his progress, he'll be with the ML club.

 

I'd leave almost everyone off that list for now. Hermsen hasn't even pitched in Triple-A, while Hernandez and Hirschfeld (seriously? Hirschfeld?) have had zero success there. These aren't top-flight prospects that you simply throw directly into an MLB rotation. Just because you haven't seen a guy before doesn't mean he's better than what you have. Plus, with the exception of Hendriks and Hernandez, none of those players are on the 40-man roster.

 

When I suggested trying Duensing in the rotation, it was simply because he was readily available and has had success as an MLB starter in the past, and at the time the Twins were trotting out Swarzak and Blackburn. That doesn't mean I think he's a viable long-term option or that I'm "continuing to insist that he's starting material" – amusing statements coming from a person accusing others of being ignorant and not taking the time to track down and accurately recap past conversations.

 

 

 

 

 

For you, not the "friend" you are defending, I will be happy to take the time to research, track down and get back to you with the specific quotes. Speaking of the use of accusatorial misquoting, if you aspire to professional writing, you need to discern the difference and context between "ignorance" and "ignorant". The word I used was ignorance and the use of "ignorance" on my part was in reference to the other poster's unawareness of a subject matter, not "ignorant" as a perjorative. Big difference.

 

I know a lot of times guys in your position (I'm not saying you have done it) like to be in print holding different positions on the same subject- with the ability to then link back to when what they wrote then shows how smart they are. Because you're better than that, that's why I'm surprised that you backed off from the correct position in this round. As stated, I didn't expect you to "know" that Diamond should have been in the rotation from the start, in that vein, I'm saying let's find out more about what we don't know, continuing what the Twins were already doing. Just sayin'.

 

Meanwhile, nothing has changed regarding the Dunce from what you wrote previously in 2011. He's demonstrated further in 2012 that he is perfect in a role as a lefty reliever. This is a lost season. It has to be a lost season when the Twins were forced to trot out Diamond, Walters, DeVries and Deduno. Were any one of these "top flight prospects that you simply throw into an MLB rotation"? Of course not. Nothing was lost by trotting these guys out and it's likely nothing will be lost by trotting out others (Hendriks is working on certain issues and his emotional fragility may or may not be a special case). There was no argument I proposed that they are "better" on a game-by-game basis, just that it generally makes perfect sense to start a guy for spot duty like Duensing- if you're in the playoff hunt or early in the season when things are unsettled- his move out of the bullpen was a "pick your poison" move as it was disruptive to a Twins area of some success- and did little-to-nothing at bolstering the SP situation- all the while wrecking what was a really nice season that Duensing was putting together. Here are his stats before beginning his SP duties in late June: 34.2 IP/WHIP 1.03/ERA 2.33/K-BB 22-8.

 

His total numbers since the change: 38 IP/WHIP 1.69/ERA 7.11/K-BB 17-8. I think it's entirely fair to say anyone on my list had a shot at matching or besting these numbers, with further experience and knowledge of personnel added to the equation.

Here are the entire season totals for the Twins RP staff cumulatively: OBA .246/WHIP 1.28/ERA 3.79/K-BB% 16.8. And here is the July stat set for the RPs: OBA .282/WHIP 1.54/ERA 4.75/K-BB% 15.5

 

Of course, the bullpen fall-down isn't entirely related to Duensing's absence, but the numbers tell a good part of the story.

 

To reiterate, the Twins outcome for this season has been settled for quite some time, the biggest accomplishment left for the Twins to achieve during the remainder of the year and going into the off-season, is finding and identifying guys in positions of need- a key component is starting next year's SP "cattle call" ASAP.

 

The 40-man roster argument holds little water, as well. By my count, the Twins have moved NINE guys onto the 40-man during the season. This includes 5 pitchers, including 3 of 4 mentioned above. They too, were all "readily available" as the Twins demonstrated, as are the guys I proposed. There is plenty of detritus that the Twins can Waive and/or DFA, without consequence, as demonstrated with every previous cut this year, they likely won't get claimed- or won't be missed- or won't be here next year anyway. (Tosoni, Gray, "seriously"?)

[twinsnorth49]

Holy crap, talk about a thread getting hijacked from the "I'm smarter than you are" crowd. The original analysis on Diamond was excellent, he has great deception and as long as he stays healthy there isn't much to indicate he won't continue to be successful.