Red Sox don't like Machado

[Squirrel]

 

This will be interesting in the Red Sox clubhouse.  One pitcher thinks he's standing up for Pedroia and gets suspended, Pedroia disavows all knowledge.  Time to have a player's only meeting.

Time to just say 'knock off this retribution ****' imo.

[gunnarthor]

 

We'll have to find some data on it, but I think your number is way, way off.

 

I mean, this isn't scientific, but it sure makes your 2-3 estimate seem way off.

Well, there wasn't much there, really.

1) Guy gets plunked in the side, dug outs empty. 

2) KC pitcher plunks Machado in the side, Machado charges the mound. Nothing major.

3) A non-pitching incident but really, really fun.

4) A Twins pitcher hitting Abreau in the side, dugouts empty, nothing happens.

5) Pitcher hits hitter in leg, hitter barks and walks to first, nothing happens. (although the managers were really into it).

6) Bumgarner strikes out Myers, both yap, nothing happens.

 

So, that's 6 incidents only 4 of which resulted in a HBP. None were head hunting.  The Machado charge is the only thing close to a real fight caused by HBP.  Your constant fear of people's lives being put in danger just isn't true.   

 

[gunnarthor]

 

Um, I'm not sure labeling him 'dirty' for one spiking that I think looked accidental and not intentional is really called for. Does he have a rep for this sort of thing, or other things, where the label 'dirty' applies? Just curious, because like you, I love Machado but didn't know if there is validity to that.

 

Also, not sure why you love this stuff. What if the pitcher had succeeded and hit Machado in the head ... do you love that? I just don't get it, but to each his/her own.

To the first paragraph I give you:

https://thebaseballcodes.com/tag/manny-machado/

 

I like the guy a lot but a big part of that is because he seems to be more of a throwback type player. Throwing a bat at the third baseman?! Hitting the catcher with follow through swing?!  I'd never seent that before.  Charging the mound?! He's fantastic.  He's great for baseball.

 

As to the second paragraph, I don't care. You aren't supposed to throw at a player's head which is why there will probably be more retaliation between the two teams - which I'm eagerly awaiting. But the anger and intensity of the rivalry makes sports more fun.  Worrying about "what ifs" ruins everything.  The reality is there have been only a handful of real injuries caused by purposeful HBP and the following scrum.  Far more injuries happen because of field dimensions and field conditions.  We as Twins fans celebrated Torii Hunter running over the White Sox catcher.  It's still a big part of why we liked him and FSN used it in their Hunter package the other day.  And it's a good reason why the White Sox fans still hate the Twins.  By taking away players identities - not just in baseball - sports are making the games more regional - since you only root for your jersey - and blander.  But real emotion - seeing players actually give a fig about something - is great for the sport.  

 

[gunnarthor]

Oh, and this is Jason Turbow's always professional view on the subject.  Turbow wrote a great book called, simply enough, The Baseball Codes.  

 

https://thebaseballcodes.com/2017/04/24/boston-puts-the-harm-in-charm-city-head-high-retaliation-draws-os-ire/

[Squirrel]

 

To the first paragraph I give you:

https://thebaseballcodes.com/tag/manny-machado/

 

I like the guy a lot but a big part of that is because he seems to be more of a throwback type player. Throwing a bat at the third baseman?! Hitting the catcher with follow through swing?!  I'd never seent that before.  Charging the mound?! He's fantastic.  He's great for baseball.

 

As to the second paragraph, I don't care. You aren't supposed to throw at a player's head which is why there will probably be more retaliation between the two teams - which I'm eagerly awaiting. But the anger and intensity of the rivalry makes sports more fun.  Worrying about "what ifs" ruins everything.  The reality is there have been only a handful of real injuries caused by purposeful HBP and the following scrum.  Far more injuries happen because of field dimensions and field conditions.  We as Twins fans celebrated Torii Hunter running over the White Sox catcher.  It's still a big part of why we liked him and FSN used it in their Hunter package the other day.  And it's a good reason why the White Sox fans still hate the Twins.  By taking away players identities - not just in baseball - sports are making the games more regional - since you only root for your jersey - and blander.  But real emotion - seeing players actually give a fig about something - is great for the sport.  

I get what you're saying, but I disagree with the how of showing that players actually 'give a fig about something.' Turning a play unnecessarily violent doesn't show that to me one iota. And as a Twins fan, I did NOT relish in the Hunter play of running over Jaime Burke. I remember gasping pretty loudly and I'm sure there was an 'omg, what was that for?' comment in there. I'll give it to Hunter in that he thought it was going to be closer than it was, but I'm sure Buster Posey doesn't think that was such a great thing. If players willfully causing harm to others, and hoping for it, is your idea of fantastic sport, well, we will always and forever disagree on that. I don't mind playing hard, but there are some things that are just plain stupid.

[TheLeviathan]

 

So, that's 6 incidents only 4 of which resulted in a HBP. None were head hunting.  The Machado charge is the only thing close to a real fight caused by HBP.  Your constant fear of people's lives being put in danger just isn't true.   

 

Jim suggested these things only escalate 2-3 times a year.  I doubled that with one video that is hardly a complete log of it.  I don't know what the exact number is, but 2-3 is a fraction of the total.

 

And yes, I won't apologize for thinking hurling 90+ fastballs at people's heads is always unacceptable and stupid.

[gunnarthor]

 

I get what you're saying, but I disagree with the how of showing that players actually 'give a fig about something.' Turning a play unnecessarily violent doesn't show that to me one iota. And as a Twins fan, I did NOT relish in the Hunter play of running over Jaime Burke. I remember gasping pretty loudly and I'm sure there was an 'omg, what was that for?' comment in there. I'll give it to Hunter in that he thought it was going to be closer than it was, but I'm sure Buster Posey doesn't think that was such a great thing. If players willfully causing harm to others, and hoping for it, is your idea of fantastic sport, well, we will always and forever disagree on that. I don't mind playing hard, but there are some things that are just plain stupid.

"Unnecessarily violent"?  That must be an eye of the beholder thing.  I'm pretty sure a few of us wanted McCann to get pegged for punching Sano the other day.  

 

And your Posey example is a good example of when players do get injured - in the normal course of a game, not in a kerfuffle.  (You want to use the story of the Cards third string catcher who got kicked in the head, got a concussion and retired after a real melee with the Reds even though that story is inflated to make its point).

[drjim]

Well, there wasn't much there, really.

1) Guy gets plunked in the side, dug outs empty.

2) KC pitcher plunks Machado in the side, Machado charges the mound. Nothing major.

3) A non-pitching incident but really, really fun.

4) A Twins pitcher hitting Abreau in the side, dugouts empty, nothing happens.

5) Pitcher hits hitter in leg, hitter barks and walks to first, nothing happens. (although the managers were really into it).

6) Bumgarner strikes out Myers, both yap, nothing happens.

 

So, that's 6 incidents only 4 of which resulted in a HBP. None were head hunting. The Machado charge is the only thing close to a real fight caused by HBP. Your constant fear of people's lives being put in danger just isn't true.

Yes. This is what I meant by escalate. Very little there. Headhunting is very rare.

[TheLeviathan]

If what makes you enjoy sports is people willfully, violently hurting each other....why not just watch MMA or boxing?  Why try to make baseball into it?

 

I enjoy MMA, but those guys walk into the octagon knowing what will happen.  Manny doesn't walk into that at-bat expecting to be beaned in the head.  He's there to play baseball, which last I checked, doesn't require that.  At least it doesn't when I watch kids play the game.

[gunnarthor]

 

Jim suggested these things only escalate 2-3 times a year.  I doubled that with one video that is hardly a complete log of it.  I don't know what the exact number is, but 2-3 is a fraction of the total.

 

And yes, I won't apologize for thinking hurling 90+ fastballs at people's heads is always unacceptable and stupid.

You don't have to apologize but shouldn't make **** up, either.  No one in your video hurled a 90+ fastball at someones head.  It was a video full of people barking at other people, one real brawl that had nothing to do with the pitcher and one guy charge the mound where nothing happened.  If you think barking after a HBP is escalation, well, yeah, baseball isn't the sport for you.

[Squirrel]

 

"Unnecessarily violent"?  That must be an eye of the beholder thing.  I'm pretty sure a few of us wanted McCann to get pegged for punching Sano the other day.  

 

And your Posey example is a good example of when players do get injured - in the normal course of a game, not in a kerfuffle.  (You want to use the story of the Cards third string catcher who got kicked in the head, got a concussion and retired after a real melee with the Reds even though that story is inflated to make its point).

Actually, no, I did not want to see McCann 'get pegged.' And he didn't 'punch' Sano, he put his glove in his face, which is NOT the same thing. What I wanted was for McCann to be ejected as Sano and Boyd were (was Boyd the pitcher then, have already forgotten.)

 

And that Posey play was NOT in the 'normal course of a game' and is in fact the reason why you can no longer, intentionally, go in with the intentions of taking out a player. You and I just disagree. I do not lust for these things and I do not think they make the game 'better.'

[drjim]

If what makes you enjoy sports is people willfully, violently hurting each other....why not just watch MMA or boxing? Why try to make baseball into it?

 

I enjoy MMA, but those guys walk into the octagon knowing what will happen. Manny doesn't walk into that at-bat expecting to be beaned in the head. He's there to play baseball, which last I checked, doesn't require that. At least it doesn't when I watch kids play the game.

Did you just compare that video to MMA?

[TheLeviathan]

 

You don't have to apologize but shouldn't make **** up, either.  No one in your video hurled a 90+ fastball at someones head.  It was a video full of people barking at other people, one real brawl that had nothing to do with the pitcher and one guy charge the mound where nothing happened.  If you think barking after a HBP is escalation, well, yeah, baseball isn't the sport for you.

 

I didn't make anything up, we were talking about escalation.  I don't think that is limited to head hunting.  There are lots of ways this form of justice escalates into violence and silly-ness.  We've had all sorts of take out slides and that sort of thing escalate as well.

 

If guys are in the infield fighting each other, I would call that escalation, regardless of how we got there.

 

And that sort of violence is just unnecessary, in addition to being wholly contrived by the players.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Did you just compare that video to MMA?

 

No, try some reading comprehension on that one again.  Yeesh.

 

Hint: I wasn't commenting on the video at all.  I was commenting on the (bloodlust? what's the right word) tone of this post.  

[drjim]

 

No, try some reading comprehension on that one again.  Yeesh.

 

Or try more credible analogies. The violence in baseball has really been on the downswing for years, and there are very few serious situations anymore.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Or try more credible analogies. The violence in baseball has really been on the downswing for years, and there are very few serious situations anymore.

 

Read the post by gunnathor.  He absolutely wants this stuff to escalate beyond the usual.  

 

If you want catchers getting trucked to watch baseball, I guess I wonder why you're watching baseball.  There are other sports with that kind of action baked in, you don't have to contrive it.

[big dog]

 

Time to just say 'knock off this retribution ****' imo.

Sure that's the "rational" approach...I bet various players take different viewpoints.  I would like to think your view would win out but even if it did it might be a tortuous journey to get there because of the various ways players might think about this.

[USAFChief]

My two cents:  There was nothing wrong with Machado's slide.  MLB has already ruled on what is, and isn't reckless or dangerous or malicious regarding take out slides.  His slide met none of the definitions.  And I sure as **** don't want baseball to eliminate the take out slide.

 

Throwing at someone above the shoulders should result in immediate and severe suspension.  There's no excuse for that in this instance, or any other.

 

That said...Settling on field disputes with a fastball planted in someone's arse has been and should continue to be how these things are harmlessly diffused.  These are grown men, playing a zero sum game, and ownership of the diamond is one way those sums get divvied up.

 

And owning the inside corner has always been a battle between pitcher and hitter.  We need to be careful not to upset that balance.

[gunnarthor]

Ignoring some of the normal stuff on here ... Barnes was suspended four games which seems about right. Baltimore and Boston have another series starting May 1st so we will probably see something in that series.

[TheLeviathan]

4 games doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Here it is.

Good for Pedroia.

[TheLeviathan]

Those of you that love the old-school "hit em in the butt and that polices the game" mentality....

 

 

Are you satisfied with this suspension?

 

It would seem to me if you truly do abhor things become ridiculous or dangerous, you'd be calling for much, much more in terms of punishment for this act.  4 games for a reliever is basically the same thing Sano got in terms of playing time.  (Little more of a ding to the paycheck, but not much)

[gunnarthor]

4 games is about the norm for an incident like this.  Boyd, who also clearly threw at Sano, wasn't aiming at Sano's head and just got fined. Sano shoved the catcher and got one game. Throwing at the head and getting four days seems fair.  

[drjim]

 

Those of you that love the old-school "hit em in the butt and that polices the game" mentality....

 

 

Are you satisfied with this suspension?

 

It would seem to me if you truly do abhor things become ridiculous or dangerous, you'd be calling for much, much more in terms of punishment for this act.  4 games for a reliever is basically the same thing Sano got in terms of playing time.  (Little more of a ding to the paycheck, but not much)

 

Not satisfied. I would have come down much harder. MLB dropped the ball here.

 

I'm not opposed to continuing to work for less and less of these incidents, and punishing hard when a ball goes by a head.

[Vanimal46]

Machado was interviewed last night after the game, and he was angry. The explicit rant transcript can be found here. I don't blame him for being this angry because the Red Sox continue to throw 100 MPH pitches at his knees and head.

A positive: Machado hit a moon shot HR off Sale later on in the game. 

[gunnarthor]

Yeah, this rivalry is getting a lot more fun and I assume something will happen tonight although maybe the umps will give warnings before the game starts.  

[gunnarthor]

https://thebaseballcodes.com/2017/05/03/obsess-much-time-for-red-sox-to-let-go-of-machados-slide/

[KirbyDaisy]

Be careful what you wish for.  This game has become sissyfied enough already!!

[Mike Sixel]

On the plus side, one less team the Twins have to bid against to sign Machado .................

[jimbo92107]

 

Yeah, I'm with you.

 

One other observation I have from playing 2B most of my life, is Pedroia put himself in a bad position. Now, the throw can contribute to this too and you can't see where he set up before the slide is already there in the video, but he has his foot to make the force out on the outfield-facing side of the base, exactly where any slide into second base is going in a linear straight line. 

 

On that type of ground ball, you know there isn't going to be a double-play to turn, and he should have had it on the third-base facing side of the bag.

This probably is the best observation so far, in that Pedroia, an experienced 2B, must make some move to get out of the path of Machado's expected take-out slide. Standing on the far side of the bag is nowhere near sufficient, as any trained MLB runner is going to slide THROUGH the bag and keep going at least a few feet. Machado's job was to break up the double play by undercutting Pedroia's feet. Pedroia's job is to make sure his feet aren't there when Machado's spikes come through. The 2B must either leap upwards or move to the pitcher side of the bag as the throw comes in. 

 

Even as a little kid I was coached to avoid the take-out slide. I played second base, too. I was also coached to try to break up double play attempts, but of course my technique wasn't as polished as a professional's. The Twins had a Japanese player, Nishioka, that wasn't trained to avoid the take-out slide because such slides were not part of that country's game. The slide that took him out was also on purpose, but part of the norms of the game. He didn't last long in MLB. 

 

For sure, Machado did slide past the bag with his foot raised, but I don't think he expected Pedroia to be there when his foot spiked Pedroia's leg. Why wasn't Pedroia moving past the bag? I can't pin this one on Machado. It was a clumsy play on Boston's part. After that, throwing at Machado's head was completely uncalled for. Shame on Boston.