Hicks for Murphy trade: 14 months later

[DaveW]

Also, Hicks (unsurprisingly) has hit all three of his home runs in Yankee Stadium.

Check Home Run tracker, all three would have been hit out of Target Field as well.

 

Again, itwas a dumb trade at the time and remains a dumb trade now.

[DaveW]

So, now we can't talk about past trades? I've never understood people coming into a thread saying it was a stupid thread. don't want to talk about it, read about it? don't come...

 

I was thinking about this trade the other day. I still think it is two bad players for each other. I always felt the Twins were overly impressed by a couple ABs by Murphy against their terrible pitching staff.

 

Hicks and Buxton....anyone notice a trend?

Yup re: Hicks and Buxton, Both were rushed and it messed with development. I really think this team lacks some good hitting coach(es) at the major league level.

 

Always knew that the Twins gave up too early on Hicks, and I never understood why. It's like when they traded Span before they needed to as well. Lord knows I would have rather had Hicks in the OF then Grossman and Sano.... that was what the worst part was, trading Hicks and then putting Sano in the OF. Which set sanos development at 3B back and forced us to rush Buxton

[gunnarthor]

The complaining on this site is incredible.  The Twins ditched a guy who was blocking several of their most promising prospects and posted negative WAR last year.  Did people think we were going to get a star back for him?  We got a flawed player back.  Fortunately, our flawed player is younger, isn't blocking anyone and can work out things in the minors.  

[DaveW]

The complaining on this site is incredible. The Twins ditched a guy who was blocking several of their most promising prospects and posted negative WAR last year. Did people think we were going to get a star back for him? We got a flawed player back. Fortunately, our flawed player is younger, isn't blocking anyone and can work out things in the minors.

Grossman, Santana and Sano all got a ton of games in the OF last year (Santana already has 3 this year)

 

How was Hicks blocking a bunch of great OF again?

 

The idea that they just HAD to trade Hicks is false.

[Doomtints]

 

Grossman, Santana and Sano all got a ton of games in the OF last year (Santana already has 3 this year)

How was Hicks blocking a bunch of great OF again?

The idea that they just HAD to trade Hicks is false.

He was out of options, I believe.

 

As to who he was blocking, way to be selective with your names. Let's review the OF talent last year.

 

- Sano - he was blocked by Plouffe at 3rd.

- Max Kepler - out of options.  Do you lose Kepler to keep Hicks?  Puh-lease!

- Rosario.  Better than Hicks.

- Buxton.  At his worst, he's the same as Hicks.

 

That's a full outfield and you're not even getting into Grossman and Santana yet.

[lukeduke1980]

 

- Buxton.  At his worst, he's the same as Hicks.

Separate topic but oh my goodness.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Hicks and Buxton....anyone notice a trend?

 

The only relevance Hicks has is this question right here.

 

Otherwise he's just not a very good baseball player.  We traded him for another guy that isn't a very good baseball player.

 

That isn't a trade either team wins or loses because either way you're stuck with a bad baseball player.

[DaveW]

He was out of options, I believe.

 

As to who he was blocking, way to be selective with your names. Let's review the OF talent last year.

 

- Sano - he was blocked by Plouffe at 3rd.

- Max Kepler - out of options. Do you lose Kepler to keep Hicks? Puh-lease!

- Rosario. Better than Hicks.

- Buxton. At his worst, he's the same as Hicks.

 

That's a full outfield and you're not even getting into Grossman and Santana yet.

That's the thing: there was no reason for Sano to be blocked at third. Not trading plouffe (even in season) was a complete failure.

 

Hicks at the very least would make a pretty damn compelling platoon guy with Rosario at this moment. That has plenty of value IMO, there still is the chance he can figure it out and reach his potential as well as an average to above average overall CF.

 

The fact that the Twins back up Of currently is Santana and Grossman is all we need to know to see they have plenty of space avail for someone who can hit lefties and play gray Defense.

[DaveW]

The only relevance Hicks has is this question right here.

I think the Twins made the same mistake with Hicks, they prematurely traded away their CF depth and rushed him. Ditto to what they did with Buxton.

 

All that does is waste a year or two of service time while both were clearly over matched early on iMO.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think the Twins made the same mistake with Hicks, they prematurely traded away their CF depth and rushed him. Ditto to what they did with Buxton.

All that does is waste a year or two of service time while both were clearly over matched early on iMO.

 

They may have rushed him, but that doesn't make Aaron Hicks a good baseball player now.  Because he's not.  You did the same thing with Hicks last year when he had a nice 3-4 day run and how'd that turn out?

 

If the biggest complaint was the team needs a better fourth outfielder that hits lefties - they come pretty affordably on the FA market.   And you can pretty easily find one that will out OPS .617 too.

[Taildragger8791]

 

He was out of options, I believe.

 

As to who he was blocking, way to be selective with your names. Let's review the OF talent last year.

 

- Sano - he was blocked by Plouffe at 3rd.

- Max Kepler - out of options.  Do you lose Kepler to keep Hicks?  Puh-lease!

- Rosario.  Better than Hicks.

- Buxton.  At his worst, he's the same as Hicks.

 

That's a full outfield and you're not even getting into Grossman and Santana yet.

 

Sounds to me like Plouffe was the one actually blocking the prospects there.

 

Also, Kepler had an option last year because they used it to start the season.

[gunnarthor]

 

Fwiw: I hated the trade throughout the year, you can prob find the posts I made at multiple junctions. Not sure why you are making this so personal though.

Giving up a 5 tool type guy (even if he had underachieved) for a guy who projects to be a backup catcher at best is always a bad trade IMO.

Hicks isn't a five tool type.  As a prospect we hoped he'd be one but we saw the tools fall away as he got closer to the majors.  His defense is about average - his 4 DRS wasn't anything special.  His lifetime batting average is .224 in over 1300 PA and he's 27.  It's fair to say hitting isn't a prominent tool in his bag o' tricks.  He's a 66%ish stolen base guy with basically zero or negative value in the base running parts, depending on what you look at.  He's certainly not a plus there.  He might be fast but he ain't using it.  He does have some pop but since he can't make contact, it doesn't matter.  His arm is still amazing. 

[DaveW]

They may have rushed him, but that doesn't make Aaron Hicks a good baseball player now. Because he's not. You did the same thing with Hicks last year when he had a nice 3-4 day run and how'd that turn out?

 

If the biggest complaint was the team needs a better fourth outfielder that hits lefties - they come pretty affordably on the FA market. And you can pretty easily find one that will out OPS .617 too.

It's not set in stone that he is a .617 ops player for the rest of his career. There is a good chance that the Yankees hitting coach team are everything is better and help "fix" him (sort of like what happened with Kepler and Reggie!)

 

Hicks is only 27, plenty of players don't figure it out until 27-28.

 

If hicks was 32-33 I would get your point, but still, Hicks looks like a much better player (I watch a lot of Yankee games) at the plate and even the field.

 

I guess we will see though. I do bet that he ends up with a. .820 ops against LHP and a .740 OPS overall this year.

[TheLeviathan]

 

It's not set in stone that he is a .617 ops player for the rest of his career. There is a good chance that the Yankees hitting coach team are everything is better and help "fix" him (sort of like what happened with Kepler and Reggie!)

Hicks is only 27, plenty of players don't figure it out until 27-28.

If hicks was 32-33 I would get your point, but still, Hicks looks like a much better player (I watch a lot of Yankee games) at the plate and even the field.

I guess we will see though. I do bet that he ends up with a. .820 ops against LHP and a .740 OPS overall this year.

 

You will badly lose that bet.  He'd have to increase his best single season OPS by about 25 points to do that.

 

And I do think the Yankees hitting coach has it figured out!  By the numbers Brock posted, it looks like they correctly deduced that Aaron sucks at hitting a baseball.  So best to just stand there and hope they walk you. 

[DaveW]

Also fwiw Hicks had a 98 OPS+ his last season with this club. This nonsense about him being a 70 OPS+ guy moving fwd no matter what is as silly as if I claim he is going to be a .850 OPS overall guy moving fwd.

[DaveW]

You will badly lose that bet. He'd have to increase his best single season OPS by about 25 points to do that.

 

And I do think the Yankees hitting coach has it figured out! By the numbers Brock posted, it looks like they correctly deduced that Aaron sucks at hitting a baseball. So best to just stand there and hope they walk you.

19 points actually. He has a .721 for the Twins in 2015, a 19 point raise at age 27 isn't out of the question. Esp when you start out the season with a 1.300 ops nearly!

 

How about a friendly wager: pair of twins tickets to the winner? I take .740 over you take under, deal?

[gunnarthor]

 

Also fwiw Hicks had a 98 OPS+ his last season with this club. This nonsense about him being a 70 OPS+ guy moving fwd no matter what is as silly as if I claim he is going to be a .850 OPS overall guy moving fwd.

Guess that Yankee hitting coach hasn't figured out how to improve upon his Twins' success.  

[DaveW]

Guess that Yankee hitting coach hasn't figured out how to improve upon his Twins' success.

Time will tell. 1.257 ops isn't a fluke IMO.

 

Dude looks great at the plate, seen nearly half of his at bats thus far (and witnessed his bomb in person last night at the game)

[Dantes929]

 

Would you trade Aaron Hicks for Danny Santana?

I thought so.

Because Aaron Hicks would look pretty good right now as a fourth OFer.
It was a terrible trade then, its a terrible trade now, and it'll be a terrible trade next year. You don't give up a player with Hicks' tools for a backup catcher (who can't even win THAT job), ever.

Aaron Hicks always looked pretty good as a 4th outfielder.    I was promoting platoon and late defensive replacement most of Hicks time here.   For some reason no one else  ever liked the idea so not sure what the sequence would be that would make him that now.   I think his early stats from the left side are a mirage but don't discount the idea that he ends up better than we all thought..  Instead of Murphy you should probably compare his stats to Grossman because he is probably the guy left out if Hicks had not been traded.   We gain Hicks 1.1 OPS but lose Grossman's 1.004 OPS.    All SSS of course but that is the likely comparison because nothing happens in a vacuum.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

Time will tell. 1.257 ops isn't a fluke IMO.

Dude looks great at the plate, seen nearly half of his at bats thus far (and witnessed his bomb in person last night at the game)

 

Man, I wish I could find that thread from last year........

[Steve Lein]

I'd still rather have Hicks. He'd be doing the same thing here as he is for the Yankees now (4th OF-er).

 

I thought the trade was stupid at the time because for a team that had a bunch of catching prospects that were blocked, and good ones at that, the Twins went after the worst of them.

[Taildragger8791]

I can't get too worked up over the Hicks trade since neither he nor JRM are ever going to be quality players and the front office that executed the trade is gone.

 

The only gripes I have are that it signaled a poor evaluation of talent in even bothering to acquire JRM considering how epically he failed, and it also perpetuated this routine of dumping the starting center-fielder just to prematurely promote the next unfinished CF prospect. And all that with no backup plan to maintain competence if the prospect needs more development. Hopefully the new front office pumps the brakes on that kind of impatience.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I can't get too worked up over the Hicks trade since neither he nor JRM are ever going to be quality players and the front office that executed the trade is gone.

 

The only gripes I have are that it signaled a poor evaluation of talent in even bothering to acquire JRM considering how epically he failed, and it also perpetuated this routine of dumping the starting center-fielder just to prematurely promote the next unfinished CF prospect. And all that with no backup plan to maintain competence if the prospect needs more development. Hopefully the new front office pumps the brakes on that kind of impatience.

 

This is the issue, let's hope this new FO doesn't do this. Not having a 4th OF they like in the OF this year, however, makes me not thrilled.

[Vanimal46]

 

Man, I wish I could find that thread from last year........

 

Are you talking about this one?

Gladiator Showdown: Aaron Hicks vs. John Ryan Murphy

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

- Max Kepler - out of options.  Do you lose Kepler to keep Hicks?  Puh-lease!

Off-topic, but Kepler has a 4th option this year, like Vargas, if we want to use it.

 

Back to the topic, obviously we wouldn't have to option anyone just to keep a 4th outfielder other than Santana.  We would just lose Santana.

[gunnarthor]

 

Time will tell. 1.257 ops isn't a fluke IMO.

Dude looks great at the plate, seen nearly half of his at bats thus far (and witnessed his bomb in person last night at the game)

Its 22 at-bats.  22.  He's done this before.  July 5-July 12, 2015.  July 24-July 30, 2015.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Yes, the Twins had to trade Hicks.  He was blocking Buxton.  Moving him to a fourth OFer role - with Sano, Kelper, Buxton, Rosario, Arcia and Santana all ahead of him on the depth chart - was not realistic.  Instead they could trade him away and help at a position of weakness.  

I'm not riding Dave's Aaron Hicks hype train, but this isn't quite right either.  Sano and Kepler were not ready in October 2015, and Sano should have never been moved to the OF.  And the Twins were pretty much ready to jettison Arcia at that point, and we all know the deficiencies of Danny Santana.  They didn't "have" to trade Hicks.  That said, I don't necessarily think it was a bad trade to make.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Regardless of the Hicks side of the equation... what the heck happened to Murphy?  Off to a 1-for-15 start at AAA now too.  Only 3 K's, but he's become a low-BABIP machine since coming to Minnesota.  Even in his AAA stint last year, he only had a .274 BABIP en route to a 72 wRC+.  That's below what many were saying was his MLB floor (~85 wRC+) when we acquired him.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Are you talking about this one?

Gladiator Showdown: Aaron Hicks vs. John Ryan Murphy

 

No, but a fun thread nonetheless!  It was after a two or three game hot streak Hicks had, Dave jumped on to say the same thing.  I just can't find it.

[Doomtints]

I apologize for my part in this redonkedonk conversation. I saw the bait but still could not resist.

 

See you in the other threads!