Article: Who Will Be Pitching Staff's Odd Man Out?

[chpettit19]

I think the 16 straight games and the fact that the starting pitching is drastically out doing their expectations are good reasons to keep the extra pitcher around right now. I think the effect it's having on games is overstated at this point. Why does your DH need a day off 9 games into the season? The guy stands there and watches 20 pitches and swings 3 times a night. If he's tired he needs to be cut cuz that's ridiculous. Him sitting was because Mollie wanted to get Escobar in there along with Polanco. Sitting Mauer and Kepler against a  lefty is another questionable excuse as well since almost everyone on here was just praising Mollie for sticking with his best defensive lineup and allowing the young lefties to face lefty pitchers early so as to not make them platoon players at the age of 24. The 9 men that are in the lineup shouldn't be changing as much as it is. Nobody should be tired yet and none of these guys are unknown commodities. We know the young guys need ABs and we know Giminez, Santana, and Escobar are not everyday players (you could argue EE maybe, but Polanco needs to be in there). Molitor is making this all more complicated than it needs to be. Mix and match the lineup order, but he has his 9 starters already. The 13 pitchers is an overstated problem. There's no world beater sitting in AAA because of the extra pitcher. It'll be nice to have Vargas or Park up at the end of this 16 game stretch, but it's not a gigantic issue that they aren't here now.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

You're absolutely right. My bad. Polanco looks like the answer at the plate. How's his fielding? I don't get to see the games but haven't read bad things. I'd take average...

I've watched most of the games and listened to them all. Polanco has looked acceptable out there, even good on a few plays.

 

Though he botched an easy grounder... yesterday, was it?

[nicksaviking]

 

Oh and Angel Pagan isn't coming to Minnesota. He wants a chance to start and a contract with "a base salary approaching $5 mil" according to the Giants beat writers.  He would only come if we sent one of the 3 young OFs down, paid him like a starter,  and gave him a chance to play every day. 

 

Alas, all three young OF are tearing the cover off the ball. They have a 1.081 OPS, that's Sano territory!

 

Oh, check that. That OPS is if you add all three together.

[USAFChief]

 

Oh and Angel Pagan isn't coming to Minnesota. He wants a chance to start and a contract with "a base salary approaching $5 mil" according to the Giants beat writers.  He would only come if we sent one of the 3 young OFs down, paid him like a starter,  and gave him a chance to play every day. 

He's without a contract on April 12th.  To quote one of my favorites, Dwight Yoakam, "Baby, things change."

[Thrylos]

 

I'd keep Breslow for another six weeks as a lefty specialist. It looks like Perkins is making progress in Ft. Myers, let Breslow go when Perkins is ready to come back...hopefully, in early June.

 

 

Early June 2020?

[jimbo92107]

Cut Craig Breslow and Robbie Grossman, bring up Kennys Vargas and either Zach Granite or Nico Goodrum, depending if you need infield or outfield replacement. I'd lean towards Granite because he's blazing fast if you need a pinch runner, and he's an excellent outfielder, unlike Grossman. Put Granite anywhere in the OF, there's little or no drop off defensively. Meanwhile Vargas is adequate at 1B and provides decent power from both sides of the plate. Looking at Goodrum's fielding stats, it looks like he's a possible super sub, playing anywhere on the field. 

 

I like both Breslow and Grossman, but they don't fit this team. Breslow is pretty close to done in baseball, tho I'd love it if he became a pitching coach for the Twins. Grossman still can be valuable to a team that needs a high OBP pinch hitter. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Cut Craig Breslow and Robbie Grossman, bring up Kennys Vargas and either Zach Granite or Nico Goodrum, depending if you need infield or outfield replacement. I'd lean towards Granite because he's blazing fast if you need a pinch runner, and he's an excellent outfielder, unlike Grossman. Put Granite anywhere in the OF, there's little or no drop off defensively. Meanwhile Vargas is adequate at 1B and provides decent power from both sides of the plate.

 

I like both Breslow and Grossman, but they don't fit this team. Breslow is pretty close to done in baseball, tho I'd love it if he became a pitching coach for the Twins. Grossman still can be valuable to a team that needs a high OBP pinch hitter.

Grossman has opened the season with an OBP over .400 and and OPS just under .800.

 

You never cut that guy. Never ever. I don't care whether he perfectly fits your roster because you find space for that guy.

 

Of course, Grossman may not maintain that OPS. Then you reconsider.

[jimbo92107]

 

Grossman has opened the season with an OBP over .400 and and OPS just under .800.

You never cut that guy. Never ever. I don't care whether he perfectly fits your roster because you find space for that guy.

Of course, Grossman may not maintain that OPS. Then you reconsider.

I agree that Grossman has an almost freakishly good ability to get on base. He squeezes out walks better than just about anybody I've ever seen. Not sure why pitchers don't challenge him more - he's not that good a hitter!

 

The advantage with Granite is that he's also pretty good with the bat, but more of an offensive threat than Grossman. In a tight game, if you've got a guy on second base, do you want your hitter to walk, or get a single? Plus, Granite is maybe the best outfielder in the Twins minor league system, where Grossman's D is borderline. Last, would you rather have Grossman or Granite be that guy on second base in a tight game? Who's the better pinch runner? 

 

I don't mean this as a knock on Grossman. I do like him as a ballplayer despite his limited gifts. He's a smart player and a shining example of plate discipline. However, overall it looks like Zach Granite would provide more benefits. 

[Mike Sixel]

Granite could use a little AAA time, imo.....

[Jacksson]

A short bench puts pressure on the manager to make the right moves at the right time, because errors in judgement cannot be covered up by the fact that there are another warm body or two available to lean on to correct what was a bad move by the manager. That is what happened on Tuesday. Wrong move at the wrong time by Molitor in the 9th. Unfortunately, poor decisions by Molitor have been all too prevalent by Molitor so far this season. He's got to blame something, so rather than blame himself, he can blame the short bench. Seems to me each and every major league manager should be lobbying their team management and their team's Player's Association representative to increase the major league roster to 26 or 27. That said, a return to the days when training camp broke with a roster of 28 players for a limited period of time would seem to also be a positive move for all those in baseball.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I agree that Grossman has an almost freakishly good ability to get on base. He squeezes out walks better than just about anybody I've ever seen. Not sure why pitchers don't challenge him more - he's not that good a hitter!

 

The advantage with Granite is that he's also pretty good with the bat, but more of an offensive threat than Grossman. In a tight game, if you've got a guy on second base, do you want your hitter to walk, or get a single? Plus, Granite is maybe the best outfielder in the Twins minor league system, where Grossman's D is borderline. Last, would you rather have Grossman or Granite be that guy on second base in a tight game? Who's the better pinch runner?

 

I don't mean this as a knock on Grossman. I do like him as a ballplayer despite his limited gifts. He's a smart player and a shining example of plate discipline. However, overall it looks like Zach Granite would provide more benefits.

Whoa. You'll have a hell of a time convincing me that Granite, with a MiLB career OPS of .703, is more of an offensive weapon than Grossman.

 

You're seriously undervaluing Grossman's play with the Twins. Since joining the team, he has an OPS+ of 127.

 

Miguel Sano's career OPS+ is 129.

[Mike Sixel]

 

A short bench puts pressure on the manager to make the right moves at the right time, because errors in judgement cannot be covered up by the fact that there are another warm body or two available to lean on to correct what was a bad move by the manager. That is what happened on Tuesday. Wrong move at the wrong time by Molitor in the 9th. Unfortunately, poor decisions by Molitor have been all too prevalent by Molitor so far this season. He's got to blame something, so rather than blame himself, he can blame the short bench. Seems to me each and every major league manager should be lobbying their team management and their team's Player's Association representative to increase the major league roster to 26 or 27. That said, a return to the days when training camp broke with a roster of 28 players for a limited period of time would seem to also be a positive move for all those in baseball.

 

What wrong move did he make in the 9th? It's hard to argue with any of his decisions. 

[chpettit19]

 

I agree that Grossman has an almost freakishly good ability to get on base. He squeezes out walks better than just about anybody I've ever seen. Not sure why pitchers don't challenge him more - he's not that good a hitter!

 

The advantage with Granite is that he's also pretty good with the bat, but more of an offensive threat than Grossman. In a tight game, if you've got a guy on second base, do you want your hitter to walk, or get a single? Plus, Granite is maybe the best outfielder in the Twins minor league system, where Grossman's D is borderline. Last, would you rather have Grossman or Granite be that guy on second base in a tight game? Who's the better pinch runner? 

 

I don't mean this as a knock on Grossman. I do like him as a ballplayer despite his limited gifts. He's a smart player and a shining example of plate discipline. However, overall it looks like Zach Granite would provide more benefits. 

 

That's all speculation. If we knew for a fact Granite provided all those things at the major league level it'd be one thing, but we don't. Not even close. Granite is still just a prospect, and not a very high end one at that. The only thing in there that we know for sure is that he provides more speed and better defense (not saying much there). There's a legitimate chance Granite is never more than a pinch runner/defensive replacement.

[nicksaviking]

 

Granite could use a little AAA time, imo.....

 

Or any time on a ball field this year. He's yet to make his 2017 debut.

[Thrylos]

 

Granite could use a little AAA time, imo.....

 

He in the AAA DL

[ashbury]

Granite could use a little AAA time, imo.....

Not to mention that he's on the DL. [Edit: OK, I got ninja'd. ] Strained oblique, which he claims will not keep him sidelined long. Still, if we're talking about moves to make RIGHT NOW!!!1! then he's not a candidate.

[Mike Sixel]

ya, well, I kinda knew that, my point was maybe promoting him to replace anyone would require at least some AAA playing. But I guess I missed the part where we meant RIGHT NOW. My bad, as I was sort of working...

[a-wan]

I'll make a suggestion, Kyle Gibson. Peace out, holmes.

[Danchat]

I would move on from Tonkin - Breslow should be given more chances before giving up on him and I think Duffey belongs in the pen.

 

Also, I wonder if Granite can replace DanSan when he's ready to graduate from AAA - our 4th OF tends to play a lot, and I think he'd get enough development time playing behind Rosario-Buxton-Kepler.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Also, I wonder if Granite can replace DanSan when he's ready to graduate from AAA - our 4th OF tends to play a lot, and I think he'd get enough development time playing behind Rosario-Buxton-Kepler.

It's not in the team's best interest for Granite to see an MLB roster in 2017, I think.

 

The guy is a questionable hitter who hasn't played a single game above AA. What do you think happens to that guy if he faces MLB pitching? Aaron Hicks and Byron Buxton failed spectacularly in similar situations and they posted MiLB OPSes that were literally 150+ points higher than Granite.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Breslow is the easy choice in my opinion.  I wouldn't cry much if he got lost.  I don't think it happens in the next week (baring injury) simply because of the reasons others have already stated...

 

Now that said, I still have hope for Duffey as a starter, though time in the pen can work to his advantage, as a number of starters have really stepped up their games after spending a few months working out of the pen.  I'm not against Duffey on that path, as I think he's a possible starter long term (now he may prefer to  stay there, and if so I'd keep him there), but he's probably next...

 

And Tonkin, I'd try him out in some meaningful roles, and if he fails, cut bait.

[Danchat]

 

It's not in the team's best interest for Granite to see an MLB roster in 2017, I think.

 

The guy is a questionable hitter who hasn't played a single game above AA. What do you think happens to that guy if he faces MLB pitching? Aaron Hicks and Byron Buxton failed spectacularly in similar situations and they posted MiLB OPSes that were literally 150+ points higher than Granite.

Yeah, that's why I said "until he graduates AAA", but that may take until 2018. You're right, we shouldn't push him. 

 

I wonder if Palka will be ready sometime this year. He could fill that role too, though he very well could post a Buxton-esque strikeout ratio.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yeah, that's why I said "until he graduates AAA", but that may take until 2018. You're right, we shouldn't push him.

 

I wonder if Palka will be ready sometime this year. He could fill that role too, though he very well could post a Buxton-esque strikeout ratio.

I have some hope Palka can put it together this year and get a taste of MLB pitching.

[Riverbrian]

 

The baseball chief and the general manager have a plan for this team.  A big part of that plan is to hire their own manager.  The easiest way to delete the current manager is to allow him to lose..... a lot.  Any roster moves they may make at this time will not be designed to make the team better.

 

That would be an incredibly dangerous game played by a first time POBO and first time GM trying to secure a long term future in Major League Baseball.

 

If it backfired... I'm not sure how they would explain that strategy in job interviews and come out looking good.  

[ashbury]

Yeah, that's why I said "until he graduates AAA", but that may take until 2018. You're right, we shouldn't push him. 

 

I wonder if Palka will be ready sometime this year. He could fill that role too, though he very well could post a Buxton-esque strikeout ratio.

Considering Palka and Granite for the same outfield role strikes me as about the same as considering ByungHo Park and Engelb Vielma for one infield opening.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Considering Palka and Granite for the same outfield role strikes me as about the same as considering ByungHo Park and Engelb Vielma for one infield opening.

I think the Twins have more flexibility in that role than most teams given the starting OF of Buxton, Kepler, and Rosario.

 

But that flexibility disappears if Buxton is demoted.

 

But until that happens, I think the Twins should consider a bat-first fourth outfielder over an all-glove, no hit outfielder.

[ashbury]

Oh, sure, pieces can be moved about. Much better now than the corner-DH-clogged days not so long ago with Willingham and Doumit as important players.

 

I was just reacting, maybe too specifically, to what I believed to be the question of replacing DanSan's role. Agreed, virtually anyone good can take a roster spot, and then the manager must work out the details, given that reasonable positional flexibility is present.

[Vanimal46]

Have we ruled out Escobar moving back to the OF when Adrianza returns, thus taking D Santana's spot? Adrianza filling in as utility IF in this scenario...

[ThejacKmp]

 

I have to be honest. Escobar is more inspiring than Grossman. Escobar is is a proven commodity, Grossman had one good season. Sure he BB's a little bit more, but Escobar is a more proven hitter and defensive player at crucial positions. This post is not a shot at Grossman FWIW.

 

Escobar is a good player. Why do we forget that he is one of the better Utility Infielders in the game?

 

I will never see how he is a downgrade from Grossman. Escobar is more valuable to this team.

 

1.) We're talking about having a DH not a utility infielder. No one is saying "get rid of Escobar", just that having Escobar DH is ridiculous. It's Jason Tyner 2.0. 

 

Escobar's career OPS = .682, Grossman's = .723. Grossman's OPS vs. righties (his weak side) = .696. Escobar vs. righties = .659. You might as well use Grossman (who is a solid platoon partner but not a full-time DH and not useful against righties) than replace him with Escobar. If the question was "DH Sano and Escobar plays 3B vs DH Grossman and Sano plays 3B" I'd get your point but if we're talking DHs (which we are), it's insane.

 

2.) Palka is an interesting option no one talks about. He hit righties and lefties pretty evenly in the minors in 2014 and 2016 (though not in 2015 to be fair) and is a much better bat at 1B than Gimenez on days Mauer sits. And when the Twins play righties (70% of starters) they'd be able to DH Palka instead of Grossman, who slots much better into a DH-vs-lefties/bench bat role.

 

Palka is a viable option besides Vargas/Park. He doesn't solve the lefties dilemma but that's only 30% of pitchers. Let's solve the 70% problem.

[ThejacKmp]

 

It's not in the team's best interest for Granite to see an MLB roster in 2017, I think.

 

The guy is a questionable hitter who hasn't played a single game above AA. What do you think happens to that guy if he faces MLB pitching? Aaron Hicks and Byron Buxton failed spectacularly in similar situations and they posted MiLB OPSes that were literally 150+ points higher than Granite.

 

He also hits lefty. The ideal twins 4th OF can hit from the right side of the plate. I know we all hate Danny Santana here but he's a pretty decent 25th man. Very good OF defense, adequate IF defense and he can steal a base and pinch run well. Switch hitter too if you need him to hit.

 

The problem is not having him on the roster, it's how he's used. He shouldn't be starting anything but the occasional game unless there are injuries - Grossman is bad in the OF but he should spell guys out there. Santana should be a late inning pinch runner in every close game and a defensive sub for Grossman when he plays.