Article: Surprises Mark Twins Opening Day Roster

[HitInAPinch]

 

I think they designed this roster in order to delay decision making on some of the players. And I'm not qualifying that as a bad or good thing ... yet.

Thanks for that.  I heard the news earlier today and was getting ready to spew.

Well, I still have about 220 some posts to read.  So, you really never know......

[TheLeviathan]

I could take or leave Tony Sipp.  My problem was not signing someone like Feliz.  While it's great we can cut bait with guys like Belisle, i'd much rather have some upside to look forward to.  

 

[drjim]

which RP got a chance this ST, other than Chargois? Signing the vets pretty much meant that the young guys didn't get a chance, imo. And, maybe NONE of them deserved a chance. That might be the problem here, not one of their AA or AAA RP arms even deserved a chance to make the roster. If so, maybe they should be out there signing guys younger than 36, because if the pipeline is so dry that none of them even deserve a shot, that's not good.

I would agree 100% the lack of talented pitchers on the roster is the underlying issue here. Amd the front office was limited in the offseason on what they could do.

 

I would count Mejia, Duffey, Rogers and Haley as young guys who got a shot and made the 25 man. I don't think any other young pitchers were denied a spot or unjustly kept off the 25 man.

 

In theory I have agreed with your points, but my pushback has always been that the reality of the Twins roster never allowed what you advocated. And on a bigger point, the Twins roster construction is typical. And for good reason.

 

And on another point, the teamis actually much younger than people are willing to admit. Too much focus on vets on the margins over the reality of the young position player core.

[Danchat]

 

Anyone heard a health update about Kennys Vargas?  If he was healthy, I'd be less surprised about Park going to Rochester.  

I haven't heard anything, but I'd have to assume he'll hit the 15 day DL with the way things are going. After he's healthy, that's when the Twins will decide to option him or not.

[jsteve96]

Byung Ho Park is getting treated like garbage. If I were him I'd hate this organization

[Squirrel]

Thanks for that.  I heard the news earlier today and was getting ready to spew.

Well, I still have about 220 some posts to read.  So, you really never know......

I think I mostly said that trying not to spew. What do I know?

[h2oface]

I just can't believe Santana instead of Park. I guess let Park cool off before given a chance to redeem himself. 13 pitchers. So when your pitchers suck, just have one more? More suck?

[HitInAPinch]

 

I mentioned this in a thread yesterday and firmly believe this...

We wouldn't be talking about D Santana making the 25 man roster if Adrianza didn't get hurt. I think this glitch will be fixed as soon as he's off the DL.

The Gimenez move is baffling. Not sure why they don't trust JRM in a backup role.

Carrying 13 pitchers IMO is because there is minimal trust that Santiago, Hughes, or Mejia can make it 5 innings in a regular season start.

 

If I remember the commentary from the Twins - Indians games, they were giving Gimenez credit for his work with the Indians' younger pitchers.  Trevor Bauer, specifically.  Maybe an omen that Falvey and Levine will be promoting more young pitchers??  Hope so!

[Mike Sixel]

 

I would agree 100% the lack of talented pitchers on the roster is the underlying issue here. Amd the front office was limited in the offseason on what they could do.

I would count Mejia, Duffey, Rogers and Haley as young guys who got a shot and made the 25 man. I don't think any other young pitchers were denied a spot or unjustly kept off the 25 man.

In theory I have agreed with your points, but my pushback has always been that the reality of the Twins roster never allowed what you advocated. And on a bigger point, the Twins roster construction is typical. And for good reason.

And on another point, the teamis actually much younger than people are willing to admit. Too much focus on vets on the margins over the reality of the young position player core.

 

I've not argued the team isn't young, I've argued that they concentrated on adding older players with no upside beyond this year. Hope that is clear. In addition, they offered more money to a 30 something DH than any other team. 

 

I really think they are trying hard not to stink this year. 

[killertwinfan]

 

They know exactly what they're doing. No doubt about that. And, it's just a short-term thing.

 

Also, when you have this short of a bench, a guy like Santana - even if he's not great in any defensive spot - has value. 

 

I really don't know what his value is.  Essentially he is a body that can play (poorly) an number of positions.  So in case some body get's hurt we are covered for one, maybe two games. After that you have a 40 man roster to fill those gaps. Extremely low value in my opinion.  That should be Park's spot.  On the 13 pitchers, Santiago is probably behind schedule and Hughes is a question mark. The bullpen could see extensive use in 40% of their outings.  I am uncomfortable with a short bench, but I understand it.  

[Deduno Abides]

How am I supposed to ever get my wife interested in baseball if we don't get to see any Park Bangs?

Can you really say that on TwinsDaily?

[tobi0040]

It isn't just the opening day roster. Their are several things about this roster that I don't like. But it is much broader than this roster. I personally thought we would see drastic changes from the past and I haven't seen much of anything. I would have expected to see at least 6-7 of these things:

 

Dozier traded for young starting pitching

 

Ervin traded for young starting pitching.

 

Danny Santana not invited to spring training.

 

A new head coach

 

A new pitching coach

 

More turnover in the front office

 

More young, high upside signings (former top picks/prospects yet to find their way or stayed healthy)

 

Fewer signings of guys over 30

 

A trade of one of Buxton, Sano, Kepler, or Rosario for young starting pitching. Or some other sign that the new front office realizes That until we improve our pitching we won't be relevant.

 

It seems like the new front office is more interested in being able to say we won 5-10 more games this year and take credit for it than creating a blueprint that will make a meaningful, sustained run towards relevance. The most important component of our new front office should have been an understanding during the interview process that the goal is not to win 5 more games next year. But to win 30-35 more 2-4 years down the road. This is on ownership. That is and will continue to be the issue for the Twins

[Deduno Abides]

I don't understand the outrage. Is anyone surprised by this roster? Were they supposed to trade for Trout and Kershaw? I don't get it.

 

The only real surprise to me is Park's reassignment, but as has been pointed out a few times, his 40-man status (or non-status, I guess) would mean exposing someone else to the waiver wire. I personally dislike that Santana is still around, so there's a spot that could have gone to Park. But I'm not that upset about it, because they could make that change tomorrow if they wanted to. Park is a 30 year old DH whose ST stats could be a mirage, kind of like Hicks a few years back. Nor am I upset about a backup catcher. Yes, you want value from all 25 roster spots, but there is no one who represents a viable upgrade from Gimenez. JRM maaayyybe has some upside, but I don't see how that could be met sitting on the bench. Not to mention that whatever upside he has is severely diminished from his 2016 season. People seem to have forgotten that he was really, really bad last year at both the MLB and AAA levels. Garver simply needs more time in the upper minors.

 

I also don't understand the anger about the bullpen. It makes sense to carry the extra arm when there are so many question marks in the rotation. This is also a part of the team that is more or less reassembled every year. So, if a guy like Chargois isn't there now, he could be next week, or next month, or next year. It depends on when he's ready. He was pretty bad last year and this spring. For all we know, he's Jim Hoey.

 

Personally, I'm just excited that it's baseball season again. When the Twins have a chance at the pennant, I'll start getting upset about their roster decisions.

Park, even if he proves spring training was real, may simply be a terrible fit for this team, which has third place in a bad division as a ceiling this year, maybe second if the other teams all underperform and get rid of a bunch of players.

 

Let's say Park needs one year to acclimate to the majors and last year was a mulligan. Next year, when the Twins may be able to aim for a wild card, he'll be on the backside of thirty, when players of his profile often go downhill fast. What good does it do the Twins long term to invest in playing time for him? They may be better off hoping he rakes enough in AAA to draw trade interest.

[HitInAPinch]

 

Related to JRM discussions.  Hicks loses right field position battle to Aaron Judge.

 

http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2017/03/yankees_aaron_judge_vs_aaron_hicks_the_final_argum.html

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.  Literally.....

[drjim]

I've not argued the team isn't young, I've argued that they concentrated on adding older players with no upside beyond this year. Hope that is clear. In addition, they offered more money to a 30 something DH than any other team.

 

I really think they are trying hard not to stink this year.

I understand that, but I think that is more a theoretical complaint than reality with players that would be available. It is pretty hard to add someone from outside the org under 30, unless you are talking about marginal players acquired off waivers or Rule 5. Or they could trade an established player, but would then need to backfill with a different free agent in their 30s.

 

If young guys aren't ready have to fill in the roster somehow.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I understand that, but I think that is more a theoretical complaint than reality with players that would be available. It is pretty hard to add someone from outside the org under 30, unless you are talking about marginal players acquired off waivers or Rule 5. Or they could trade an established player, but would then need to backfill with a different free agent in their 30s.

If young guys aren't ready have to fill in the roster somehow.

 

Hmmm. You could be right, but I bet we wouldn't have to look hard to find players under 29 added to teams every off season. But, I could be wrong, and you could be right. 

[Mike Sixel]

I was thinking another thought on RPs....

 

it is possible they have some major changes they want to make in what the RPs are doing, and they are going to implement that this year, meaning they need 1-3 months to get the guys "changed" to the new way, whatever that way is. That might be one reason to hold them all back from even having a chance.

 

The risk, of course, is that these guys have achieved what success they have by doing something they way they do it now. But, given the lack of development here the last few years, that would be a risk I'd take if I was the FO.

 

Of course, we have no idea if that's really true, just a theory I have.

[DaveW]

Matt Davidson was kept by the White Sox this off season. He is a high busy candidate for sure, but at least there is some upside there if he can suddenly "click.

 

The Twins bring in Gimenez, give the DH spot to grossman and keep Danny santana on the roster.

 

It's almost like the White Sox actually are committing to a rebuild, and the Twins like always are just treading water hoping for a miracle.

Edited March 30, 2017 by DaveW

[Deduno Abides]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.  Literally.....

Hicks is going to be a fourth outfielder for the Yankees and get a few hundred ABs, while playing good defense. Murphy couldn't beat out the dictionary definition of replacement player and will be a backup catcher in AAA, while two bad fielders will be the backup outfielders for the Twins. Terrible trade.

 

The fact that Hicks didn't beat out Aaron Judge for a starting position doesn't make me feel any better about Murphy's not beating out Chris Giminez for backup catcher.

[HitInAPinch]

So, Upon Further Review:

 

Park was sent down because there were no open spots on the 40 man roster.  Or just waiting to open a spot or 2.  Reviewing the current 40, I can think of at least 4 that I could live without. 

 

Mejia and Duffey:  YES to both.  Now then, let's begin the season with moving some dead weight out.

 

 

[DaveW]

Yup. Hicks is actually being able to provide value while JRM is just AAA back up type now.

 

I hated the trade then and I hate it now. I'd much rather have hicks as our 4th OF now then Grossman (who can't play D) or freaking Santana!

[Lee-The-Twins-Fan]

Detroit just released Pelfrey – but i cannot believe these guys would sign him... I sure hope they don't

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Detroit just released Pelfrey – but i cannot believe these guys would sign him... I sure hope they don't

 

there go 2 Twins' wins. 

[HitInAPinch]

 

Hicks is going to be a fourth outfielder for the Yankees and get a few hundred ABs, while playing good defense. Murphy couldn't beat out the dictionary definition of replacement player and will be a backup catcher in AAA, while two bad fielders will be the backup outfielders for the Twins. Terrible trade.

The fact that Hicks didn't beat out Aaron Judge for a starting position doesn't make me feel any better about Murphy's not beating out Chris Giminez for backup catcher.

"Nothing ventured, nothing gained"
phrase of venture  (a risky or daring journey or undertaking)

 

 1.   proverb

   You can't expect to achieve anything if you never take any risks.

 

That's what I meant.....

 

 

[drjim]

 

Hmmm. You could be right, but I bet we wouldn't have to look hard to find players under 29 added to teams every off season. But, I could be wrong, and you could be right. 

 

I did a quick search of some free agent lists. Here is mlb.com's Top 25 FA list from last offseason. 3 of the 25 were under 30, and they were all 29 - Ramos, Chapman, Jansen.

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/208095448/top-25-mlb-free-agents-of-2017/

 

There are just so few good free agents available under 30. It's a worthwhile goal, but just doesn't really exist in reality. Plenty of guys off waivers, Rule 5, etc, but very few otherwise.

[drjim]

 

Matt Davidson was kept by the White Sox this off season. He is a high busy candidate for sure, but at least there is some upside there if he can suddenly "click.

The Twins bring in Gimenez, give the DH spot to grossman and keep Danny santana on the roster.

It's almost like the White Sox actually are committing to a rebuild, and the Twins like always are just treading water hoping for a miracle.

 

Oh the humanity, two bench guys and a 27 year old DH. All the evidence you need that the Twins aren't rebuilding.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I did a quick search of some free agent lists. Here is mlb.com's Top 25 FA list from last offseason. 3 of the 25 were under 30, and they were all 29 - Ramos, Chapman, Jansen.

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/208095448/top-25-mlb-free-agents-of-2017/

 

There are just so few good free agents available under 30. It's a worthwhile goal, but just doesn't really exist in reality. Plenty of guys off waivers, Rule 5, etc, but very few otherwise.

 

Trades, even promotions from within would count for me, if they weren't on the roster the previous year. But yes, there aren't many FAs that are young, and there will be less and less.

[curt1965]

I wonder how the Twins are going to sell tickets. The novelty of seeing games at Target Field is gone. Coming out of spring training, this is not an exciting group to watch, nor is it a team that is going to win games. Honestly, I have lost interest in this organization: you can say they did little, if anything (other than the Castro signing) to improve the team over the winter.

They have made the roster older. The Park move is mind-boggling ( if you are trying to put the best players on the field to start the season). Their 3 man bench consists of 2 utility guys and a back-up catcher. The organization's roster construction is just bizarre!

The TD partisans will beg us to give the new regime time. How long do we have to wait for this team to field a major league product?

[Mike Sixel]

 

I wonder how the Twins are going to sell tickets. The novelty of seeing games at Target Field is gone. Coming out of spring training, this is not an exciting group to watch, nor is it a team that is going to win games. Honestly, I have lost interest in this organization: you can say they did little, if anything (other than the Castro signing) to improve the team over the winter. They have made the roster older. The Park move is mind-boggling ( if you are trying to put the best players on the field to start the season). Their 3 man bench consists of 2 utility guys and a back-up catcher. The organization's roster construction is just bizarre! The TD partisans will beg us to give the new regime time. How long do we have to wait for this team to field a major league product?

 

Winning sells tickets, everything else is just side dressing. That's very clear from all the data out there. I don't know if they are planning to sell many tickets. 

 

it's actually the previous year's record that most predicts the current year's ticket sales.

[DaveW]

Oh the humanity, two bench guys and a 27 year old DH. All the evidence you need that the Twins aren't rebuilding.

Take a look at the rotation and bullpen as well then.