Is this racism or culture clash in baseball?

[Mike Sixel]

 

His exact quote was "I think I only heard a white player called “not a winning player” once, because he was on the DL, as opposed to at least ten players of color called that." He didn't name names, but one is one. I came up with two off the top of my head, and I follow the Twins, completely ignore 3/4 of the league, and half-way pay attention to the rest. Heck, Ted Williams was "not a winning player" (all about his stats). 

 

I think KLaw just forgot about the examples that didn't set off the alarm he was listening for.

 

Just curios, do you think you spend more time with scouts, FO people, and players, or do you think KLAW does?

 

I mean, we both know the answer. We also both know there is a lot of history in this sport around racism. In the context of both of those things, I'll listen to him on this.

[gil4]

 

Just curios, do you think you spend more time with scouts, FO people, and players, or do you think KLAW does?

That's part of my point.  With my massive blind spots and zero access, I came up with two examples. (Three - Ted Williams)  With his full access, he could think of one. 

 

It's not like we're dealing with massive numbers - it was 1 vs. 10. 

[old nurse]

 

I've read a lot of words and comments here ... stoicism vs flair, emotion, passion, showboating, manners, respect, showing up your opponents, respect for the game, etc ... yet I've really not seen anyone define these words or give examples other than American vs Latin. My guess is that every single one of us would have a different sense of what these mean in context of the game of baseball, and every single one of us would have a different sense of what is and is not acceptable based on our own personal experiences. That's part of the problem. Maybe discussing some of this vocabulary we could come to some kind of consensus. To force anything into one ideology or culture will ensure its demise, imo. It's all of these things together is what makes baseball, and life, interesting, that there are these differences in style, personality, ideology, whether it be American, Latin, black or white. Just because it's not of one's own personal preference or experience doesn't make it wrong; just because that's not the way it's always been done doesn't make it disrespectful, either.

However, when you start attaching these words to a specific group of players, judging them by it, criticizing them for it, generating stereotypes with it, yes, I'd call that racist. I mean, look at those words I listed above, how many of them would you say have negative connotations and how many of those would you have attributed to a specific group of players? Yes, there have been examples made outside that specific group, but how many in general negatively affect a specific group of people? Maybe it's not full out, full blown, in your face, knowingly out of hate racism, but it is racism. And we all do it to varying degrees. I'd rather Kinsler have shrugged his shoulders and said 'It's not my style, but whatever.' Why the need to specifically attach it to the teams of PR and DR? When a public figure of any kind starts doing that, and telling kids to appreciate the game 'our way' vs 'their way' I do cringe a bit. I don't think Kinsler's intent here was malicious, not one iota, but that doesn't mean it wasn't racist. And I don't believe Kinsler to be a racist or a monster, I don't know him at all and can't and won't pass judgement on him. But I do think his comment did have racial overtones that I didn't like. And I do think those overtones are something to address in baseball as I think they are prevalent, and not in a healthy way. And maybe Kinsler was just pointing out different styles of play, and encouraging everyone to appreciate that in and of itself, because there is a great thing in our differences, I just think he did so in an unfortunate way initially.

He mentioned the team they just played and they were going to play. Recency more than racial could be a terribly logical reason.

[spinowner]

Your actions on and off the field should show respect for your opponent. It's a golden rule thing. Don't do something you wouldn't like your opponent to do. That may sound simple but context matters. In MLB games the context is fairly uniform, but the WBC presents a dilemma in that two teams from different cultures operate in different contexts during the same game. So it's no surprise that one team might think that certain actions were completely acceptable while the other team might think that the same actions were completely unacceptable.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think the issue is also where heads go when the word racist is used.

 

A person can make a statement that is racist without being a homophobic racist at their core.

 

Someone can make a statement that has racist undertones that are not intended, but are still there nonetheless.

 

On the other hand, because someone makes that sort of statement does not make that person a monster or a horrible person.

 

I do think there are some culture/race issues within baseball for sure, and those who have played a decade in the majors have likely been so ingrained into that culture that they don't even realize there is an issue anymore...

This is my take as well. Is Kinsler a racist? I have no idea, I don't know the guy.

 

Did he say something subtlely racist? Yeah, he did. And that's where we need to focus. Pretty much every white person in the country has an undercurrent of racism within them. I'm no different than most white Americans in that regard and try to call myself out every time I catch it happening. It's a byproduct of being raised in an institutionally racist society. We're ingrained from a young age to perceive certain people and cultures in a specific way and the media and government reinforce those ideas throughout our lives.

 

Instead of calling Kinsler a racist, I'd ask him "Why did you feel the need to point out specific differences between "us" and "them"? And why were those comments drawn almost directly across racial and cultural lines? And why do you think that's an okay thought process to have?"

[KirbyDome89]

 

Pretty much every white person in the country has an undercurrent of racism within them. 

Just to clarify are we talking only white people or is this applicable to all individuals in the US?

[biggentleben]

 

Just to clarify are we talking only white people or is this applicable to all individuals in the US?

 

Yes. To both.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Just to clarify are we talking only white people or is this applicable to all individuals in the US?

White people are the social default and control the overwhelming majority of power in this country so I don't really see the point in debating whether black people are "racist" because it has no impact on the life of your average white American.

 

But white racism very much has an impact on the life of your average black American because that racism is supported and enforced institutionally.

[Craig Arko]

Just to clarify are we talking only white people or is this applicable to all individuals in the US?

More or less the entire species.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Yes. To both.

Kind of has to be one or the other.

[KirbyDome89]

 

White people are the social default and control the overwhelming majority of power in this country so I don't really see the point in debating whether black people are "racist" because it has no impact on the life of your average white American.

But white racism very much has an impact on the life of your average black American because that racism is supported and enforced institutionally.

So the argument is that racism comes from a position of power right?

[Brock Beauchamp]

So the argument is that racism comes from a position of power right?

The kind that actually impacts lives of people en masse.

 

Everyone has bias and is a bigot or an asshat in some capacity. Only some people have those beliefs built into governmental and societal structure, impacting the lives of entire groups of people as a result.

[Craig Arko]

So the argument is that racism comes from a position of power right?

I believe the argument is that racism does more harm when combined with a position of power.

[biggentleben]

 

Kind of has to be one or the other.

 

Everyone has a level of racism due to their background and upbringing that we daily must evaluate in our own thoughts and actions, but there is a different "us against the world" mentality that is prevalent more in particularly WASP whites than in any other social group, and throughout history, that particular population (WASP whites) in this country has had the ability to legislate more racism than any group in this country.

 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Everyone has a level of racism due to their background and upbringing that we daily must evaluate in our own thoughts and actions, but there is a different "us against the world" mentality that is prevalent more in particularly WASP whites than in any other social group, and throughout history, that particular population (WASP whites) in this country has had the ability to legislate more racism than any group in this country.

1. I had to look up what WASP meant.

2. I'll just disagree that whites have a monopoly on "Us vs Them." 

[Craig Arko]

Everyone has a level of racism due to their background and upbringing that we daily must evaluate in our own thoughts and actions, but there is a different "us against the world" mentality that is prevalent more in particularly WASP whites than in any other social group, and throughout history, that particular population (WASP whites) in this country has had the ability to legislate more racism than any group in this country.

Ask a native Japanese and a native Chinese what they think of one another. Or a native Ukranian and a native Russian. The list is long, global, and predates the existence of the United States.

 

But yes, colonialism ratcheted things up. A lot.

[biggentleben]

 

Ask a native Japanese and a native Chinese what they think of one another. Or a native Ukranian and a native Russian. The list is long, global, and predates the existence of the United States.

But yes, colonialism ratcheted things up. A lot.

 

That's why I did include the "in this country" part. I have noted from friends that there is a significant difference with Japanese-Americans and Japanese in how they view other Asian cultures, and that's somewhat expected, but I have also found it sociologically fascinating that for many groups that have incredible differences and racism in their home countries, they find a bond in this country as being grouped together - Korean/Chinese/Vietnamese/Japanese/etc. are all Asian, Indian/Pakistani/Iranian/Saudi are all Middle Eastern (which isn't even correct with India, but anyway), and Sudanese/Ethiopian/Egyptian/Nigerian are all African, for instance. In their home countries, they'd have different opinions of the countries they get grouped with in the U.S., but here, they tend to bond together as they "feel" a common racism across their regional identification.

 

Obviously, these are sociological things that have much deeper explanations and things to pare out, but it is something in this country where it does end up where shade of melanin matters.

[biggentleben]

 

1. I had to look up what WASP meant.

2. I'll just disagree that whites have a monopoly on "Us vs Them." 

 

Never said a monopoly, but in this country, we melt together based on skin tone so much. I remember being astonished the first time my TA in college from India immediately identified my cultural background. I'd always simply identified as white, but for him, there was more than just that behind who I was, and he found that intriguing (granted, this was for an anthropology course, but still). I had similar experiences frequently with students from other countries while in college who could identify what my primary background was, not just that I was white. That is something that is fairly unique to our country, for better or for worse.

[laloesch]

Coming in very late to this apparently, so apologies if this is a dead horse by now, but....

 

Of course what Kinsler said was racist. Attitudes and statements don't have to be intentional, malicious, or even acknowledged for them to be racist. He said that the way American ballplayers were "brought up" was a superior behavior to that displayed by Puerto Rican and Dominican ballplayers. Did he need to say something like "Us white folk are more well-behaved than those Caribbean savages" for it to be racist? No!

 

Context matters. Even if he left out calling out Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic, the context of the statement is that as a representative of Team USA, he hopes that children don't form behavioral patterns based on The Other.

 

Actually he didn't say that at all and you are not acknowledging what the times was asking him either. He did not say nor imply American ball players were brought up in a superior way. Everyone should note your ONLY quotes were "brought up." To me this intellectually dishonest and could be considered libel in court.

[TheLeviathan]

Actually he didn't say that at all and you are not acknowledging what the times was asking him either. He did not say nor imply American ball players were brought up in a superior way. Everyone should note your ONLY quotes were "brought up." To me this intellectually dishonest and could be considered libel in court.

Again I ask - why did he say kids should watch Americans "as opposed to" the other countries if not because he believes their play is superior?

 

What does that comment mean if not that? When I say "you should eat the steak not the chicken", I'm not merely pointing out a difference. It's utterly preposterous to continue to suggest that.

[KirbyDome89]

Isn't there a big issue here? Wasn't one of the main criticisms of Kinsler's comments that he painted with a broad brush and showed prejudice towards a people of a different ethnicity? Personally I disagree with the assessment, but how is the statement that whites or any other group are inherently racist any different? This seems like a "my truth," situation.

 

Preference is different from bias.
Possibility for a racial component isn't evidence there is one.
The fact all people have the capacity to be racist doesn't mean that they are.

 

I feel like these terms are being fused when in fact there is a clear cut difference.

[KirbyDome89]

 

 Only some people have those beliefs built into governmental and societal structure, impacting the lives of entire groups of people as a result.

We'll just say we're vehemently opposed on this one. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Never said a monopoly, but in this country, we melt together based on skin tone so much. I remember being astonished the first time my TA in college from India immediately identified my cultural background. I'd always simply identified as white, but for him, there was more than just that behind who I was, and he found that intriguing (granted, this was for an anthropology course, but still). I had similar experiences frequently with students from other countries while in college who could identify what my primary background was, not just that I was white. That is something that is fairly unique to our country, for better or for worse.

Craig's first paragraph above took the words out of my mouth. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

We'll just say we're vehemently opposed on this one.

The only people who seem to feel this way are white.

 

That says all that needs to be said on the subject, as far as I'm concerned.

[Squirrel]

~~~~~

 

Note from John Bonnes:

 

Hi gang,

We pride ourselves at Twins Daily on thoughtful conversations and occasionally we stretch ourselves with more incendiary topics. This has the potential to be one of those topics. I'd encourage you to participate, but I'd also encourage you to be civil, thoughtful, understanding and kind. I'm also assuming this topic will be heavily moderated, and that you show understanding with the moderators who volunteer to keep this a good place to talk through topics that make folks uncomfortable.

 

Thanks,

John

MODERATOR WARNING:

 

I've reposted this message above from John if we are going to continue discussing this topic.

 

You are welcome to express your opinion and so are others, and it's okay if these opinions are in disagreement with one another. Many here have expressed that they think the tone and message of Kinsler's quote is troubling. That is a valid opinion so please, stop saying people are wrong. They aren't. And many don't think there is anything inherently wrong in what Kinsler said, and that is also a valid opinion and shouldn't so quickly be negated. No one here is right or wrong in this discussion despite believing otherwise. This isn't an all or nothing discussion, nor should it be. You can agree to disagree without saying others are wrong or delusional or in denial or libelous. You can agree to disagree without stomping your feet saying your are right and the other wrong, no matter how much you believe that to be the case.

 

For everyone here, I know that many, myself included, have strong opinions on this subject, but the narrative of our posts must remain civil and open-minded and not too heavy handed or we will achieve nothing.

 

And in John's message he said he expects this thread to be heavily moderated ... I'm trying to give some latitude to opinions here, but if you are going to take an all or nothing extreme stance without giving way to listen to the other side, your post will be edited or deleted.

 

I will also add, try not to be so offended and start posting defensively. That also does nothing to move the conversation forward.

[TheLeviathan]

Isn't there a big issue here? Wasn't one of the main criticisms of Kinsler's comments that he painted with a broad brush and showed prejudice towards a people of a different ethnicity? Personally I disagree with the assessment, but how is the statement that whites or any other group are inherently racist any different? This seems like a "my truth," situation.

 

Preference is different from bias.

Possibility for a racial component isn't evidence there is one.

The fact all people have the capacity to be racist doesn't mean that they are.

 

I feel like these terms are being fused when in fact there is a clear cut difference.

I won't suggest to know whether Ian Kinsler is a racist. I will suggest his comments continue a negative racist trend in baseball that Latin players need to be taught how to play "the right way". And that is a problem, whether he intended to be part of that narrative or not I don't know. But now he is.

[The Wise One]

Adam Jones said the same as Kinsler From the LA Times

In San Diego, when the U.S. faced Puerto Rico, Venezuela and the Dominican Republic in pool play, Jones said much the same thing.

“We are very, very emotional, very passionate,” he said. “We just exude it in a little different way.

 

http://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/adam-jones.jpg

[KirbyDome89]

 

The only people who seem to feel this way are white.

That says all that needs to be said on the subject, as far as I'm concerned.

Its cool to generalize and speak dismissively about a race as long as its a specific skin color.

 

Hypocrisy be damned right? 

 

That kind of "progress," is what says it all...

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Its cool to generalize and speak dismissively about a race as long as its a specific skin color.

 

Hypocrisy be damned right? 

 

That kind of "progress," is what says it all...

Okay, so you went down that road. Here we go.

 

Regarding race, most white people have a limited scope of experience in this country. That's not hypocrisy, that's just reality. We don't see tons of **** that happen to people on a daily basis because it doesn't happen to us. This is even more problematic for straight white men, who suffer from no real discrimination at all when you get right down to it.

 

Therefore, we white men need to listen from time to time because, sometimes, we don't see the experiences of different people and their day-to-day lives. This shouldn't be a radical concept, it should be common sense. When I needed help with an art assignment in school, I didn't chase down the gym teacher to talk about it. I found someone with real world experience in that arena, I shut up, and I listened for a hot minute. It's unbelievable to me that so many white men don't realize that their inability to comprehend that different people have different life experiences is part of their in-built bias. We're so used to ruling the damned world and being treated as the default setting for American Human Being that we've forgotten other people exist out there and those people may have a different perspective on the world.

 

None of this means we're bad people. None of this means all this crap is our fault and our fault alone. It means we have a limited view of the world in this particular subject because we're not a part of that world. When I started renovating my kitchen, I wasn't ashamed that I had to ask my brother-in-law for guidance. He's a bloody fantastic carpenter with much more experience in that kind of work. Why do we view life experience so differently than skill and training?

 

If you put a group of white people in a room and asked the question "Are we living in a post-racial society?", you'd get a variety of answers. Some people would nod yes, others would be unsure, some would disagree.

 

If you put a group of black people into that same room and asked the same question, you'd be laughed out of the damned room. Why is this? And why are so many white people loathe to accept that reality? There are entire segments of America that fall 90%+ on one side of that argument and the split is clearly drawn along racial and gender lines. White people are the only segment of our society that splits on opinion or is unsure. Why does that happen? What are we missing here?

 

In a normal world, that realization would cause people to rethink their stance. When one group of people with a specific life experience overwhelmingly disagrees with an opinion, there's a chance, just a chance, that we're missing something here because our life experiences aren't the same as every other American.

[Mike Sixel]

Empathy is hard, that's what Brock is also saying....