Is this racism or culture clash in baseball?

[Bark's Lounge]

 

Just so you're aware the saying "butt hurt" can be considered a homophobic slur by some people. I'm not saying you're homophobic but just letting you know that some people consider it as much.

 

Really the only reason I'm pointing this out is to make a point that what people say doesn't always mean they're being racist or homophobic. What Kinsler said might have come out wrong when he said it. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt as I haven't seen a pattern from him to suggest that he is in fact racist.

Thanks for pointing that out. On a day when I didn't want to use a curse word, which I often do, I used a word much worse instead. ****!!!

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

Perhaps. but then, I've never condoned throwing a ball at him at 90MPH in retaliation. 

 

I also think I said "plenty of people in the US don't want", not "he's wrong". I think the point I'm trying to make is that I'd tolerate his boring way of showing emotion, and not say it is wrong and that children should be like me vs him. I'm kind of good with a mix of cultures. I can't imagine anything more boring than a never changing culture. 

 

but, sure, if you want to read what I said that way, you can. And, you might not be 100% wrong. Since, you know, science says repressing your emotions is bad for you. And that celebrating joy is good for you.

 

"Unemotional robots" certainly implies you think he's wrong. It's a pretty blatant put-down.   

[Mike Sixel]

What phrase would you use?

 

People that want no emotion shown?

Old skewl MLB players?

 

Is it not accurate that is what he, and many who think you should just run the bases with your head down like you've been there before, mean? What do they mean, then? I am genuinely curious, because I think it's pretty clear what "act like you've been there before" means. Heck, it is nicknamed the No Fun League for a reason.

 

edit, to add:

I'm sure he's not a bad person. I'm sure he spoke loosely, just as I have. But I can feel he is wrong, w/o imposing my beliefs on him. that's called freedom and a love of diversity. I'm not asking him to change, or anyone like him OTHER THAN I don't think they should try to force others to be like them, and that I think it would be healthier for them if they were more accepting of others.

 

those are pretty big differences. 

 

edit: I posted these edits after Bark liked it, sorry if that is an issue, Bark.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

What phrase would you use?

 

People that want no emotion shown?

Old skewl MLB players?

 

Is it not accurate that is what he, and many who think you should just run the bases with your head down like you've been there before, mean? What do they mean, then? I am genuinely curious, because I think it's pretty clear what "act like you've been there before" means. Heck, it is nicknamed the No Fun League for a reason.

 

edit, to add:

I'm sure he's not a bad person. I'm sure he spoke loosely, just as I have. But I can feel he is wrong, w/o imposing my beliefs on him. that's called freedom and a love of diversity. I'm not asking him to change, or anyone like him OTHER THAN I don't think they should try to force others to be like them, and that I think it would be healthier for them if they were more accepting of others.

 

those are pretty big differences. 

 

edit: I posted these edits after Bark liked it, sorry if that is an issue, Bark.

Made it better.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Unemotional robots? By saying that, aren't you basically doing what you're accusing Kinsler of doing - just in the opposite direction? There's no need to belittle those who may live/work/play in a different way. To each his own, right?    

 

Ian Kinsler is arguing everyone should play his way.  I think Mike is arguing let everyone play their own way.

 

That is not the same thing.

[old nurse]

 

If I say I hope my kid watches Steve play and not Joe and Bob, by your logic I'm not saying anything critical of Joe and Bob.  Just pointing out differences.  Please tell me that isn't what you're saying.  It's preposterous on the face of it.  

 

He didn't say "I hope they notice the difference", he very clearly implied he hopes that kids play one way and not the other way.

 

Race comes into play when we consider why he is putting one way as superior to the other.  Maybe it's not racism, but there is widespread shame placed on how latin players play in baseball.  We should take a good, hard look at why.

Wow Read into things much?  Context of the rest of the conversation would really be helpful.

 

That’s not taking anything away from them. That just wasn’t the way we were raised. They were raised differently and to show emotion and passion when you play. We do show emotion; we do show passion. But we just do it in a different way.”

 

Context because that line would give others the impression that the greater context would have been a discussion that it does not look like the Americans are having any fun, don't care ( someone else can find the same general  indict of Mauer somewhere in these threads) and Desmond offers a rebuttal. Nowhere can I see a negative comment, only that we are different.  That is not a clash of any kind.  Kinsler's initial statement was not detailed allowing so many to add to it without substance only personal opinions and egos.

 

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

What phrase would you use?

 

People that want no emotion shown?

Old skewl MLB players?

 

Is it not accurate that is what he, and many who think you should just run the bases with your head down like you've been there before, mean? What do they mean, then? I am genuinely curious, because I think it's pretty clear what "act like you've been there before" means. Heck, it is nicknamed the No Fun League for a reason.

 

Wait, who's advocating that no emotion be shown? It certainly wasn't Kinsler (or anybody that I know of). I think if you asked an "old school" player their views on expressing emotion on the field, they'd more than likely say showing your emotions is fine, provided it is proportional to the moment at hand. Win the World Series with a walk-off homer? Go crazy. Jaw at the opposing team's dugout because you're dominating them (ala Stroman last night)? Probably going too far. Do a cart wheel because you caught the 2nd out of the top of the 3rd inning? You need a sedative. 

 

I really reject the idea that "act like you've been there before" = emotion-repressing robot, just as I reject that pumping your fist in the air after you get a big hit = disrespectful showboat. Both ways of thinking are just two sides of the same simple-minded coin, in my opinion.

[old nurse]

 

Ian Kinsler is arguing everyone should play his way.  I think Mike is arguing let everyone play their own way.

 

That is not the same thing.

Nowhere does Kinsler say one way is better than the other, only different.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Nowhere does Kinsler say one way is better than the other, only different.

 

He says children should emulate one and not the other.  Why, if not because he views one as better?

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Wait, who's advocating that no emotion be shown? It certainly wasn't Kinsler (or anybody that I know of). I think if you asked an "old school" player their views on expressing emotion on the field, they'd more than likely say showing your emotions is fine, provided it is proportional to the moment at hand. Win the World Series with a walk-off homer? Go crazy. Jaw at the opposing team's dugout because you're dominating them (ala Stroman last night)? Probably going too far. Do a cart wheel because you caught the 2nd out of the top of the 3rd inning? You need a sedative. 

 

I really reject the idea that "act like you've been there before" = emotion-repressing robot, just as I reject that pumping your fist in the air after you get a big hit = disrespectful showboat. Both ways of thinking are just two sides of the same simple-minded coin, in my opinion.

 

Fair. Maybe I'm not understanding the line all that well. Gets to my point way up thread, actually. 

 

 

[old nurse]

 

He says children should emulate one and not the other.  Why, if not because he views one as better?

“I hope kids watching the WBC can watch the way we play the game and appreciate the way we play the game as opposed to the way Puerto Rico plays or the Dominican plays,” Kinsler said. “That’s not taking anything away from them. That just wasn’t the way we were raised. They were raised differently and to show emotion and passion when you play. We do show emotion; we do show passion. But we just do it in a different way.”

 

Where does he say to emulate anyone?  Appreciate is not emulate.

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

Fair. Maybe I'm not understanding the line all that well. Gets to my point way up thread, actually. 

 

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of grey area when it comes to all these unwritten rules. I do think the game has become less dogmatic about all these behavioral "rules" and the consequences for breaking them, which I think is a positive. Embracing emotion and prioritizing respect for your opponent can (and should) coexist in the game. The game seems to be gravitating towards that happy balance.      

[Vanimal46]

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of grey area when it comes to all these unwritten rules. I do think the game has become less dogmatic about all these behavioral "rules" and the consequences for breaking them, which I think is a positive. Embracing emotion and prioritizing respect for your opponent can (and should) coexist in the game. The game seems to be gravitating towards that happy balance.

I certainly hope so. It would be great to see a league where if a batter succeeds against your pitcher and celebrates, he doesn't get beaned during his next PA....

 

Many of the "unwritten rules" are outdated and petty. If the pitcher is mad for giving up a moon shot, strike him out next time. Throw better pitches!

[Dr. Evil]

I really love the WBC it's so cool to see the wild fans and the excited players. A lot of people I think look at this tournament as sort of a World Cup. That's very exciting and very fun.

 

Before stating my opinion on Kinsler's comments, let me just say that I would sure like to hear some opinions from the players and citizens he names to see how they received these words. I don't want to speak for them or pretend I know how they interpreted it. Intended or not, we are somewhat responsible for how what we say makes people feel.

 

Here is my take....

 

I think he was pointing out that he is of the belief that baseball should be played more along the lines of Bud Grant's line of thinking. "Respect the game, act like you been there before."

 

It's just fine to have any philosophy you want on humility and level of celebration. I actually prefer the Bud Grant philosophy myself. But, that's beside the point.

 

MLB players themselves display a higher level of celebration down the stretch or at playoff time. For some of the participants/even countries in this tournament this is their "World Series." Also, many of the players aspire to play in MLB. Though evolving in popularity, I think people who are amped for the MLB season view this as just a preseason thing that pulls players from their clubs for a while.

 

All of this being said, I think that he didn't need to choose this stage to make a statement about philosophy to players who are heroes in their countries and would do anything possible to be apart of what he is fortunate enough to be a part of. Naming countries made the comments even harder to swallow.

 

With respect to those named and everyone's opinions, I feel that this is not a race issue and I do not consider Ian Kinsler as a racist. He is a gifted player who probably should have talked about something else. Nothing more.

[Squirrel]

I've heard these 'respect the game' comments before, and I'm not trying to be contrary, but what exactly does that mean? Should there be one standard of what that means? And who sets that standard? This is my issue with that ... how is being outwardly expressive disrespectful? To me disrespecting the game is cheating (steroids, for example), lacking integrity in play, intentionally flaunting the rules, intentionally trying to cause harm to a player ... to me that's disrespecting the game and not jumping up and down and cheering when you win, not giving a fist pump as you run the bases or get that strike out. We have different ideas of decorum, and that's fine, but maybe some really need to quit being so offended over someone else's joyfulness.

[Riverbrian]

My response is "Don't worry Ian... the kids aren't watching anyway". 

 

Maybe Ian wasn't paying attention while MLB has been debating pace of play and other rule changes in an attempt to make the game more attractive to younger viewers and... and... also to minorities.  

 

Ian may not have seen the data that strongly suggests that baseball TV audiences are 50% over the age of 55 and 83% White and trending the wrong way. 

 

It's not a big deal for Ian in the end. He will be out of the game and will have cashed his paychecks when the TV revenue drys up and the stadiums are empty because the youth just never warmed to a 1950's idea of respect for the game.

 

 

 

 

[Jham]

I don't think Kinsler was b trying to be racist. I'd say the comment is slightly racist, but again with lack of intent. He's guilty of over-generalizing, and his generalization just happened to be by race.

 

For instance i say somewhat frequently that sconnies are drunk blazer orange wearing hicks, and Cubs fans aren't real baseball fans. Of course, there are many sober Wisconsin residents (although they do sell hard liquor in gas stations) and many actual baseball fans who root root root for cubbies. But I'm lazy when I complain and make a point about fans who annoy me. Ian is doing the same thing. But by race. And that's worse because it's more damaging more hurtful and paints a broader swath. But it's not clear whether he's criticizing Latin culture or just showboating. Actually it is. It's not clear which he truly meant, i should say. Hence accidental racism.

[Riverbrian]

 

I don't think Kinsler was b trying to be racist. I'd say the comment is slightly racist, but again with lack of intent. He's guilty of over-generalizing, and his generalization just happened to be by race.

For instance i say somewhat frequently that sconnies are drunk blazer orange wearing hicks, and Cubs fans aren't real baseball fans. Of course, there are many sober Wisconsin residents (although they do sell hard liquor in gas stations) and many actual baseball fans who root root root for cubbies. But I'm lazy when I complain and make a point about fans who annoy me. Ian is doing the same thing. But by race. And that's worse because it's more damaging more hurtful and paints a broader swath. But it's not clear whether he's criticizing Latin culture or just showboating. Actually it is. It's not clear which he truly meant, i should say. Hence accidental racism.

 

Ian basically kinda did the "With all due respect thing" before he made his statements so he is free to say anything. I learned that from Rickie Bobbie in Talladega Nights.

 

Ian Kinsler and Goose Gossage are the ambassadors of how baseball is played in America I guess. It was Goose who stepped up after the bat flip and said. "Bautista is a [expletive] disgrace to the game. He’s embarrassing to all the Latin players, whoever played before him". 

 

Not only is there this unwritten historical force to produce uniform sameness in style, personality and presentation in the game of baseball that dates back generations...

 

but... everyone... please... stop and think about this. 

 

There is an unwritten historical system of retribution in place to enforce it. 

 

IMO... The Game is Beautiful and stuck in the past and in need of a refreshen. 

 

 

[peterb18]

My opinion is that this is a REALLY big stretch to say it's racism.  Is it because its a white guy is saying it?  Would it be okay if it was an African American or Spanish American instead?  What exactly is racist about what he said?  I think people need to back off the rush to throw out the race card every time they disagree with something.  

 

"I hope kids watching the W.B.C. can watch the way we play the game and appreciate the way we play the game as opposed to the way Puerto Rico plays or the Dominican plays. That’s not taking anything away from them. That just wasn’t the way we were raised. They were raised differently and to show emotion and passion when you play. We do show emotion; we do show passion. But we just do it in a different way."

 

I just don't see how that's racist.  He is basically saying that American baseball is played differently than how Puerto Rico, Domincan, Koreans, etc play the game. To deny that is flat out ridiculous.  I see no mention of race just region.  Different teams / cultures DOO show emotion differently, just like many Minnesotans of Euro heritage have a propensity to be passive aggressive stoic.

 

Our society in general is way too sensitive. Kinsler just gave an honest opinion of his view on how to play the game of baseball. This is just another example of "creating news".

[Dr. Evil]

I've heard these 'respect the game' comments before, and I'm not trying to be contrary, but what exactly does that mean? Should there be one standard of what that means? And who sets that standard? This is my issue with that ... how is being outwardly expressive disrespectful? To me disrespecting the game is cheating (steroids, for example), lacking integrity in play, intentionally flaunting the rules, intentionally trying to cause harm to a player ... to me that's disrespecting the game and not jumping up and down and cheering when you win, not giving a fist pump as you run the bases or get that strike out. We have different ideas of decorum, and that's fine, but maybe some really need to quit being so offended over someone else's joyfulness.

To me "respect the game" means something more like be a good sport, compete like hell against your opponent and maintane a healthy level of respect for them.

[biggentleben]

 

I think you've hit on something when you mention manners. When I was growing up, it was always considered poor sportsmanship to showboat or show up an opposing player. 

 

That's just it. Not a single player in the WBC showed up another player or showboated from all the games I watched. There were plenty of celebrations, but no showing up of any opposition.

[biggentleben]

I think the issue is also where heads go when the word racist is used.

 

A person can make a statement that is racist without being a homophobic racist at their core.

 

Someone can make a statement that has racist undertones that are not intended, but are still there nonetheless.

 

On the other hand, because someone makes that sort of statement does not make that person a monster or a horrible person.

 

I do think there are some culture/race issues within baseball for sure, and those who have played a decade in the majors have likely been so ingrained into that culture that they don't even realize there is an issue anymore...

[B Richard]

I brought this account back from a multi-year hiatus to make this comment--

 

Not every culture clash is racism. Different people have different traditions and ways of doing the same thing-- in this case, playing a sport. Diversity is worth celebrating, and if we truly celebrate it, then we must appreciate the flamboyant tradition of Latin American baseball *as well as* the more stoic "American" way. 

 

Ironically, almost everyone in this thread (including me) is stereotyping by painting this stark contrast-- there are counter-examples (see Bryce Harper, as mentioned earlier). Be aware of this.

 

Clearly we are all generally aware of differences that exist among baseball cultures. Pointing out differences, like Kinsler did, is not inherently wrong or bad. Oftentimes people making these criticisms do so with racist language. I don't think Kinsler did this-- I see nothing that would make me infer that Kinsler believes players from Latin American are inferior humans. They're just (in his words) different baseball players. 

 

We can argue about intent all day, but that will get us nowhere. I personally think it's silly to try to exclude emotion from a *game*, but Kinsler is certainly allowed to point out a widely-perceived difference among cultures and hope that kids appreciate his own personal style. That is not racist.

 

 

[Sasquatch]

I think out of context the comment looks a little bit questionable. But I think Kinsler is just trying to encourage the more professional tone that baseball has carried itself with. I do though, like the flair with which the Latin American teams are playing. As one of the younger people in the forums, I think that the energy and emotion that these teams are bringing to the game, could excite the very viewing audience MLB needs right now. I apologize to the people who love the old ways, but my generation would rather watch Steph Curry celebrate a three with his back to the basket as the ball goes in, than watch any player casually and emotionlessly round the bases after what could be the most exciting play in the game, a home run.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I brought this account back from a multi-year hiatus to make this comment--

 

Not every culture clash is racism. Different people have different traditions and ways of doing the same thing-- in this case, playing a sport. Diversity is worth celebrating, and if we truly celebrate it, then we must appreciate the flamboyant tradition of Latin American baseball *as well as* the more stoic "American" way. 

 

Ironically, almost everyone in this thread (including me) is stereotyping by painting this stark contrast-- there are counter-examples (see Bryce Harper, as mentioned earlier). Be aware of this.

 

Clearly we are all generally aware of differences that exist among baseball cultures. Pointing out differences, like Kinsler did, is not inherently wrong or bad. Oftentimes people making these criticisms do so with racist language. I don't think Kinsler did this-- I see nothing that would make me infer that Kinsler believes players from Latin American are inferior humans. They're just (in his words) different baseball players. 

 

We can argue about intent all day, but that will get us nowhere. I personally think it's silly to try to exclude emotion from a *game*, but Kinsler is certainly allowed to point out a widely-perceived difference among cultures and hope that kids appreciate his own personal style. That is not racist.

That might be about as close to a perfect post as we're going to see. If only a "super like," existed...

[KirbyDome89]

 

 

Why does that happen? Why does a mostly white population support statements one way but forgive (or conveniently overlook) the other way?

 

I would suggest it might be because, while there isn't a conscious or overt racism involved, there is something in our nature that moves us in that direction. (Which, by the way, doesn't make us "bad" people.) And perhaps the first step in fighting it is to try and consciously recognize it. 

I would say its because the mostly white population prefers the culture in which they live. It shouldn't come as a surprise that the American news media would prefer the "American way," of playing as opposed to the latin version. The "Twins Way," was defended by news media in the metro area but I'm sure other teams disagreed with aspects of how the organization was run. Everybody thinks their own culture is the best, such is part of the point of having one. People tend to act in their own best interest and if they believe aspects of their culture to be counter to that they will change.  I'm certain if you parsed it down further and compared the DR with Puerto Rico you would find cultural differences that those sides wouldn't agree on. I don't think anybody would be claiming racism then.  

[KirbyDome89]

1. There is the potential for a racial component in the comments made

2. If there is potential then the comments must involve race

3. If the comments involve race then the speaker is a racist

 

I agree with #1. I couldn't agree less with the logic of #2 and #3 yet that seems to be how we've arrived at Ian Kinsler being a racist. It has been stated before but to get from 1-2 and 2-3 you need to take massive leaps. The fact that there is a potential for a racial component doesn't mean there is one. 

 

I've seen a decent chunk of the discussion circle around the "My way is right yours if wrong," impression for the comments. I agree, I do think that is what he is saying. It also isn't surprising. Every culture creates a sense of "us vs. them." I said it above but everybody views the way they do things as the best way to do them, so naturally he views his way of playing as a better option. Does that mean he thinks he is superior to latin players on a human level? (racist) No. 

 

 

[laloesch]

 

I think what Kinsler said was foolish with a sprinkling of bigot dust. It is sad because I imagine he has been on the receiving end of hate because of his Jewish heritage.

 

In all sincerity, I believe baseball to be Puerto Rico's, DR's, and a handful of other country's National Sport.

 

The U.S.A.'s is Football. Without the talent these other countries have brought to this game, the evolution of baseball would be in a very sad state. It's time for U.S. Ball players and Fans (mostly white), to take the stick out of their rear ends and embrace the awesome things these other countries have contributed to the best Sporting Game ever invented, instead of spewing shallow, butt hurt, borderline racist comments at the players of these countries.

 

Baseball was invented in the U.S., but the U.S. does not own baseball's soul, it's these other countries who own it. They make the game fun.

 

We're not talking about the tooth fairy here.

I would LOVE to see the reaction of people here if Joe Mauer had said something like this.  Would have been priceless.

[Jham]

Our society in general is way too sensitive. Kinsler just gave an honest opinion of his view on how to play the game of baseball. This is just another example of "creating news".

I usually see this in the context of criticizing the bleeding heart liberal stereotype. But the fact that there are counter protesters, babies on billboards, and boycotts of businesses with an odd number of bathrooms leads me to believe that this phenomenon is mostly a way of criticizing your "opponent". If it isn't you, "get over it" is so convenient. Ian Kinsler might just not like playing with flair or he might not like Latinos or their different culture. Either are valid interpretations of his quotes.

[laloesch]

 

I usually see this in the context of criticizing the bleeding heart liberal stereotype. But the fact that there are counter protesters, babies on billboards, and boycotts of businesses with an odd number of bathrooms leads me to believe that this phenomenon is mostly a way of criticizing your "opponent". If it isn't you, "get over it" is so convenient. Ian Kinsler might just not like playing with flair or he might not like Latinos or their different culture. Either are valid interpretations of his quotes.

 

Again.  Everyone should RE-READ the ESPN article AND THE ORIGINAL NY TIMES article and the context of the piece were Kinsler is asked about this to begin with.  If anything the times shows their own bias and arrogance more so than Kinsler.  

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/22/sports/baseball/world-baseball-classic-usa-puerto-rico.html?

 

The NY TIMES ARTICLE, "The other is how staid and emotionally calibrated the Americans often seem in contrast to the bat-flipping, chest-thumping, flag-waving players from — well, pretty much every other team in the tournament."

 

When asked about this Kinsler said:  “I hope kids watching the W.B.C. can watch the way we play the game and appreciate the way we play the game as opposed to the way Puerto Rico plays or the Dominican plays,” Kinsler said. “That’s not taking anything away from them. That just wasn’t the way we were raised. They were raised differently and to show emotion and passion when you play. We do show emotion; we do show passion. But we just do it in a different way.”

 

He doesn't say the American way is better or bash latinos he just hopes kids watching the WBC see the differences and appreciate the way the USA plays the game in contrast to how other countries play.  Nothing wrong with that.  People need to chill out here and stop making this into something its not.  like i said the messenger matters more than the message.