Is this racism or culture clash in baseball?

[Vanimal46]

 

Really?  please provide examples of "disproportionate criticism leveled on latin players", because i'm curious to read about them.  

 

There's an annual ripping of Jose Bautista and the emotion he plays with... 

Goose Gossage is a good source for ripping on Latin American players as well. 

[Vanimal46]

 

No kidding. It went past my bedtime and I'm not even on the east coast.  I went to bed after Berrios' good inning, and thankfully missed his not-so-good inning.  Apparently he had some help from our old friend J.C. Romero, who I couldn't believe was still pitching.  I guess he is still just 40, but it seems like it was almost that long ago he pitched for the Twins.

 

Agreed. There's no chance that kids on the east coast stay up to watch it, and neither will the kids living in central time zone. Hope there's a ton of kids on the west coast taking advantage! But probably not. 

 

Wow, J.C. Romero is still pitching? 

[KirbyDome89]

 

All I'm suggesting is that there is some of both.  Even if Kinsler doesn't know it. 

 

And it is common and disproportionate.  Ask Jose Bautista.

Meh we'll agree to disagree on the subconscious motives of Ian.

 

Idk, I feel like Bryce Harper catches quite a bit of hate for playing a similar style. Baseball is stubborn as $**%. Its infuriating at times. Like John mentioned above I definitely think the aspect of "get off my lawn," plays a big part in the criticism. 

 

Oh Jose. Personally not a huge fan so maybe a biased opinion here, but I think he brings quite a bit of criticism on himself. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Really?  please provide examples of "disproportionate criticism leveled on latin players", because i'm curious to read about them.  

 

we had a whole thread on this last year, with numerous quotes from baseball people. No one here is making this up.

[nicksaviking]

 

 

"I hope kids watching the W.B.C. can watch the way we play the game and appreciate the way we play the game as opposed to the way Puerto Rico plays or the Dominican plays. That’s not taking anything away from them. That just wasn’t the way we were raised. They were raised differently and to show emotion and passion when you play. We do show emotion; we do show passion. But we just do it in a different way."

 

I just don't see how that's racist.  He is basically saying that American baseball is played differently than how Puerto Rico, Domincan, Koreans, etc play the game. To deny that is flat out ridiculous.  I see no mention of race just region.  Different teams / cultures DOO show emotion differently, just like many Minnesotans of Euro heritage have a propensity to be passive aggressive stoic.  

 

I can't speak for everyone else who finds that quote embarrassing, but I don't think the offensive part is about how other cultures play baseball differently, it's his implication that other cultures are raising their kids wrong. Or at least other cultures should be raising their kids the same way Americans do.

 

Also, as a fellow American, I'm a bit offended that Kinsler thinks that there is actually an "American" way to raise people. Based on his views, I can assure him I was raised differently than he was.

[KirbyDome89]

 

First, I'll agree with you that there is room for disagreement on this issue and discussion of the other side of this issue, without going Defcon 5. However, I'll also say I think there is room to discuss if there is at least a slight racial component to it. Or even if there is an urge (maybe natural, maybe not) to interpret someone's actions differently based at least partially on their skin color.

 

With this topic and baseball, it's hard to find an example of a team that is mostly white but plays baseball and would've played baseball, so I'm reduced to hypotheticals. But I'll try one:

 

What if Australia would've advanced and had some fiery reactions to their wins and on field theatrics. (My brother lives in Australia and I can totally see this happening.) Would there have have been criticism of it? Or would it mostly have been praised as "showing emotion." It sure feels to me like it would have been the latter. 

Sure, I'm not advocating for stopping any conversation. My hesitation is in the immediate labeling of something as racist. (NOT saying Levi did this, just in general) I think too often the first action is to brand actions or comments before thoughtful consideration. IMO it should be the other way around. 

 

Would the players be bothered by it? I would have to believe so. I can't see somebody like Kinsler, who apparently prides himself on being old school, not taking exception to on field antics. Would it be written off by the media s "showing emotion?" Thats a good question. Honestly I think the same group that can't stand any change would still have a problem with it and the "Make baseball fun again," crowd would defend it. That said, do I think there would be 0 racial component to the criticism? No. I just feel like the fact that there can be a racial component is used as justification to have an extreme take on issues like this. 

 

In a different scenario, if a player like Adam Jones had made the same comments would the first reaction have been racism? 

[Mike Sixel]

 

I can't speak for everyone else who finds that quote embarrassing, but I don't think the offensive part is about how other cultures play baseball differently, it's his implication that other cultures are raising their kids wrong. Or at least other cultures should be raising their kids the same way Americans do.

 

Also, as a fellow American, I'm a bit offended that Kinsler thinks that there is actually an "American" way to raise people. Based on his views, I can assure him I was raised differently than he was.

 

anyone that doesn't think this is indicative of "we are right, and you are wrong", well, they aren't really reading what he said. It's pretty clearly stated.....

 

And, frankly, I wasn't raised that way either, and plenty of people in the US don't want a bunch of unemotional robots around them....

[wagwan]

Recognizing differences in cultures is not racism. Saying one is better than the other is. Robert Pirsig in his book Lila has some interesting things to say about this. In short, he says the more extroverted are European in origin and the stoicism of Americans has roots in the Native American culture.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Sure, I'm not advocating for stopping any conversation. My hesitation is in the immediate labeling of something as racist. (NOT saying Levi did this, just in general) I think too often the first action is to brand actions or comments before thoughtful consideration. IMO it should be the other way around. 

 

Would the players be bothered by it? I would have to believe so. I can't see somebody like Kinsler, who apparently prides himself on being old school, not taking exception to on field antics. Would it be written off by the media s "showing emotion?" Thats a good question. Honestly I think the same group that can't stand any change would still have a problem with it and the "Make baseball fun again," crowd would defend it. That said, do I think there would be 0 racial component to the criticism? No. I just feel like the fact that there can be a racial component is used as justification to have an extreme take on issues like this. 

 

In a different scenario, if a player like Adam Jones had made the same comments would the first reaction have been racism? 

 

did he rip Stroman for showing emotion?

[laloesch]

 

we had a whole thread on this last year, with numerous quotes from baseball people. No one here is making this up.

 

Who said anything about making anything up.

 

I can't speak for everyone else who finds that quote embarrassing, but I don't think the offensive part is about how other cultures play baseball differently, it's his implication that other cultures are raising their kids wrong. Or at least other cultures should be raising their kids the same way Americans do.

 

Also, as a fellow American, I'm a bit offended that Kinsler thinks that there is actually an "American" way to raise people. Based on his views, I can assure him I was raised differently than he was.

 

What i see is a bunch of people that feel guilty about something and are quick to cast judgment on a baseball player because he's a white guy.  And he is correct American's are raised differently and do play the game differently than kids in other countries.  i don't see how that racist.  To me saying that we are all the same, that there are no cultural differences, no differences in the game is racist.

[gil4]

 

First, I'll agree with you that there is room for disagreement on this issue and discussion of the other side of this issue, without going Defcon 5. However, I'll also say I think there is room to discuss if there is at least a slight racial component to it. Or even if there is an urge (maybe natural, maybe not) to interpret someone's actions differently based at least partially on their skin color.

 

With this topic and baseball, it's hard to find an example of a team that is mostly white but plays baseball and would've played baseball, so I'm reduced to hypotheticals. But I'll try one:

 

What if Australia would've advanced and had some fiery reactions to their wins and on field theatrics. (My brother lives in Australia and I can totally see this happening.) Would there have have been criticism of it? Or would it mostly have been praised as "showing emotion." It sure feels to me like it would have been the latter. 

It might be interpreted differently because of the history of the game in the two locations.  Baseball is THE game in Puerto Rico, while it's a cultural afterthought in Australia, and an Australian win would have been a massive shock.  I'm sure if Puerto Rico won the FIFA World Cup, wider latitude would be given than would be for, say, Germany, because there is no expectation they would act like they have been there before (because they haven't.)

 

Full disclosure:  I couldn't get to the link, so I have no idea what Kinsler said. OK, I have a general idea, but I don't know the specifics.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Who said anything about making anything up.

 

 

What i see is a bunch of people that feel guilty about something and are quick to cast judgment on a baseball player because he's a white guy.  And he is correct American's are raised differently and do play the game differently than kids in other countries.  i don't see how that racist.  To me saying that we are all the same, that there are no cultural differences, no differences in the game is racist.

 

He also hoped that kids would be like him (i.e., his way is the right way), right?

[gil4]

 

Wow, J.C. Romero is still pitching? 

I clicked the link in the box score and it went to a picture of him and his stats (last pitched in MLB in 2012.)  It surprised me, too.

[laloesch]

 

did Kinsler rip Stroman for showing emotion? Just curious....

 

Perhaps you should read ESPN's article.  Everyone should read that before hanging the guy.

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/18980386/ian-kinsler-complimentary-wbc-purpose-differing-styles-play

[laloesch]

 

He also hoped that kids would be like him (i.e., his way is the right way), right?

 

Read the ESPN article, before casting judgement that all i'm saying.

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/18980386/ian-kinsler-complimentary-wbc-purpose-differing-styles-play

[KirbyDome89]

 

did he rip Stroman for showing emotion?

His teammate? No. As far as I'm aware its quite taboo to call out teammates. That doesn't mean he endorses the actions.

 

But using the "don't criticize another color," logic, wouldn't calling out Stroman just stoke the racism fire? First he is a racist for calling out latins, now he is a racist for not calling out a black pitcher. I get the point you're making about only criticizing one group, but the Stroman example is awkward. 

 

[Oldgoat_MN]

The problem is other teams taking it personally. Why?

 

Old enough to do so, I remember Juan Berenguer celebrating strikeouts in the 1987 playoffs. I read that the other teams (Tigers & Cardinals) were annoyed by this, but he wasn’t rubbing their noses in it. He was excited to get an important out.

Kirby Puckett pumped his fist as he rounded second base in the bottom of the 11th inning of game 6 of the 1991 World Series after hitting a walk-off home run. An iconic picture to Twins fans, is this an ‘in your face’ move by Puckett? No.

 

If players stopped pretending it was all about them and that the other team is simply celebrating its own accomplishment(s) (Joey Batflips) perhaps people would be less intimidated by the ‘unwritten rules’.

Enthusiasm is a good thing.

[Celebrity Weddings!]

The frequency with which this conversation comes up lately is a good thing insofar as it encourages boring "respect the game" scolds like Kinsler to talk themselves into irrelevance. Nietzsche said that the mother of excess isn't joy, but joylessness and we get a nice little view of it in the weird desire to police behavior in a children's game - often by encouraging actual physical violence in retributive HBP. 

 

When Kinsler has exhausted his on-field usefulness and the hot-take industry is freer to ignore his bad opinions, baseball will have gotten a little bit better.

[Blake]

 

I always preferred the player who had just homered, who puts his head down and trots briskly around the bases. Or the pitcher who holds his head high and walks calmly off the mound after an inning ending strike-out. But that's just the way I was raised in my family..."Do not brag" was instilled into me by my parents. I never liked players who would hot dog, however that may be. I don't like a boxer or a linebacker who glares and stands over his downed opponent, who is slow to get up. I don't like touchdown dances. I'm a trial lawyer and I don't like showboats in court either. I do like to win, but I act like I've done it before...like I expected to win. I shake hands with the opposing attorney after the case is over and I congratulate him/her, whether I win or lose. I think it is good manners to do these things.

I think you've hit on something when you mention manners. When I was growing up, it was always considered poor sportsmanship to showboat or show up an opposing player. 

[Celebrity Weddings!]

 

Read the ESPN article, before casting judgement that all i'm saying.

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/18980386/ian-kinsler-complimentary-wbc-purpose-differing-styles-play

 

This is a pretty aggressive walk-back of what he said earlier, not a clarification. Good for him. Being wrong once and awhile is character-building.

[Blake]

 

The problem is other teams taking it personally. Why?

 

Old enough to do so, I remember Juan Berenguer celebrating strikeouts in the 1987 playoffs. I read that the other teams (Tigers & Cardinals) were annoyed by this, but he wasn’t rubbing their noses in it. He was excited to get an important out.

Kirby Puckett pumped his fist as he rounded second base in the bottom of the 11th inning of game 6 of the 1991 World Series after hitting a walk-off home run. An iconic picture to Twins fans, is this an ‘in your face’ move by Puckett? No.

 

If players stopped pretending it was all about them and that the other team is simply celebrating its own accomplishment(s) (Joey Batflips) perhaps people would be less intimidated by the ‘unwritten rules’.

Enthusiasm is a good thing.

Yes I think the line is being crossed from enthusiasm to showmanship.

[laloesch]

 

This is a pretty aggressive walk-back of what he said earlier, not a clarification. Good for him. Being wrong once and awhile is character-building.

 

How so?  I don't think so at all.  What i see is a journalist and newspaper putting words in his mouth and framing him as a racist because he's white and he dared to say that Puerto Rico and Domincan Republic play the game differently than the USA (WHICH THEY DO).  Sorry.

[TheLeviathan]

No one put words in his mouth, that's a freaking quote.  I'm glad he walked it back and clarified, but his original quote was pretty clearly a dig and not what he reframed it as later.

 

But I'm glad he walked it back, it shows the ability to see where he went wrong.

[Mike Sixel]

 

How so?  I don't think so at all.  What i see is a journalist and newspaper putting words in his mouth and framing him as a racist because he's white and he dared to say that Puerto Rico and Domincan Republic play the game differently than the USA (WHICH THEY DO).  Sorry.

 

He is quoted as saying he hopes that kids are watching how the US plays, and plays like them, no? Isn't that implying his way is better? 

 

I do like his updated quotes. They show an open mindedness that his off the cuff remark did not. That's often the case. But let's not pretend (well, I won't) that there isn't a belief that showing emotion in the game is wrong, and that physical violence is an ok response to that...

 

[John Bonnes]

 

Read the ESPN article, before casting judgement that all i'm saying.

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/18980386/ian-kinsler-complimentary-wbc-purpose-differing-styles-play

 

I don't think the point here is that Kinsler is necessarily a bad guy, just because he expressed an opinion that can have a racial component. I also would not say he's old, just because he said something that has a generational component. Or even that he's no fun, just because he said something that was was absolutely no fun.

 

I'm more interested in the viewpoint as it is often expressed.

 

But on the person, let's not forget: these guys are competitors first and foremost. They're always looking for motivation. They're always in a us vs them mindset. It's a lot easier to get to this level embracing that. Telling himself this narrative is likely second nature at this point, and the reason isn't racial or cultural or generational. It's motivational.

 

Personally, I'd like to encourage focusing more on the message than the messenger. 

[Oldgoat_MN]

 

Yes I think the line is being crossed from enthusiasm to showmanship.

 

I suspect that Kirby would have been disappointed that people saw it that way.

[Celebrity Weddings!]

 

 I also would not say he's old, just because he said something that has a generational component. 

 

I don't want to say he's old either, because then I have to wrestle with my own physical uselessness a bit more clearly. But he's still old. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Sure they did.  Your "walkback" was a media insuation that he was criticizing latin players.  When all he said was "I hope kids watching the WBC could appreciate the way we "USA" plays the game as opposed to Puerto Rico or the Dominican plays."   Only the media and hypersensitive race hustlers can interpret that as racism against latin players.  

 

His criticism was of latin players.  Quite plainly.  Putting that up for debate makes me question what you're even reading or if you're just defaulting to all the mumbo-jumbo in your last sentence.

[laloesch]

 

I don't think the point here is that Kinsler is necessarily a bad guy, just because he expressed an opinion that can have a racial component. I also would not say he's old, just because he said something that has a generational component. Or even that he's no fun, just because he said something that was was absolutely no fun.

 

I'm more interested in the viewpoint as it is often expressed.

 

But on the person, let's not forget: these guys are competitors first and foremost. They're always looking for motivation. They're always in a us vs them mindset. It's a lot easier to get to this level embracing that. Telling himself this narrative is likely second nature at this point, and the reason isn't racial or cultural or generational. It's motivational.

 

Personally, I'd like to encourage focusing more on the message than the messenger. 

 

I hear what you are saying, but i think this is a big hoopla about nothing to be perfectly honest.  If anything the media is driving a ridiculous narrative (like they often do) because the guy is a white guy and is automatically guilty as a racist.  If it was a Latino player saying this about the USA team or a black USA player this would be a no-story, so in reality its not just the message but also the messenger that counts.

[Celebrity Weddings!]

 

If it was a Latino player saying this about the USA team or a black USA player this would be a no-story, so in reality its not just the message but also the messenger that counts.

 

Other reasons that would be a non-story would be that it didn't, and doesn't seem to ever, actually happen.