Is this racism or culture clash in baseball?

[TheLeviathan]

Ian Kinsler proves people like this are not only ignorant, but slightly racist as well.

 

~~~~~

 

Note from John Bonnes:

 

Hi gang, 

We pride ourselves at Twins Daily on thoughtful conversations and occasionally we stretch ourselves with more incendiary topics. This has the potential to be one of those topics. I'd encourage you to participate, but I'd also encourage you to be civil, thoughtful, understanding and kind. I'm also assuming this topic will be heavily moderated, and that you show understanding with the moderators who volunteer to keep this a good place to talk through topics that make folks uncomfortable. 

 

Thanks,

John

[Platoon]

Idiotic. If a team shifts, it is absolutely in his right to lay down a bunt and beat that shift, score be damned.

And it's also his right to steal third standing up if no one is covering the bag! Or it be if you aren't named Eddie Rosario!

[KirbyDome89]

My 2 cents:

 

Clashing cultures doesn't = racism.

[TheLeviathan]

 

My 2 cents:

 

Clashing cultures doesn't = racism.

 

It does when you make asinine comments like Kinsler did.

[KirbyDome89]

 

It does when you make asinine comments like Kinsler did.

So whenever you disagree with aspects of another culture its racism? That seems like a very dangerous standard to set.

 

There are definitely parts of other cultures that I completely disagree with, and I'm sure you can think of some as well, that doesn't mean either of us is a racist. IMO the meaning of the word has essentially devolved to the point of "I disagree with what you're saying." Its unfortunate. 

[Mike Sixel]

I still don't understand how burying your emotions is a good thing.....

[Seth Stohs]

I would side on it not being at all racist. There clearly was no intent. It's just pointing out the differences in emotion-showing in the US/MLB vs playing elsewhere. The game also has differences in Japan and Korea too. That's just the way it is. It doesn't mean one way is better or worse. It's cultural to a degree. It's also upbringing within a culture. 

[Seth Stohs]

John had a pretty good quote too on Twitter about this... (referring to some Blyleven comments on MLB radio)

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

So whenever you disagree with aspects of another culture its racism? That seems like a very dangerous standard to set.

 

There are definitely parts of other cultures that I completely disagree with, and I'm sure you can think of some as well, that doesn't mean either of us is a racist. IMO the meaning of the word has essentially devolved to the point of "I disagree with what you're saying." Its unfortunate. 

 

When the group you are disagreeing with always has the same color skin?  (Not white) Yeah, then it might be a little racist.

 

The Asian countries have some quirky things too, but you don't see that getting nearly the criticism of the Latin American countries.

 

I don't throw the term around loosely and I don't believe Kinsler means to be racist, but it is subtle and part of this.

[Vanimal46]

"I hope kids watching the W.B.C. can watch the way we play the game...." 

They're not, Ian. If they wanted kids to get into it, they wouldn't start the games so late and end way past their bedtime on a school night.  

 

I'm always going to side with players that show flair and emotion on the field. Kinsler's views are outdated, and I don't agree with them. This is a novel concept, but it's almost like it's more fun watching a baseball game when the players are having fun too. Weird! 

[Blake]

I took a look at the quote in question and taking it a face value, it's merely pointing out the differences in the way the game is viewed and played by different cultures.

 

Calling what Kinsler said "racist" is a huge stretch and merely points to the almost pathological obsession with racism in certain parts of the country. 

 

It is no longer "there's a red under the bed" paranoia, rather, it's "there's a racist in the closet" paranoia. 

 

I'm completely fed up with this garbage, to be honest. It's become almost impossible to say anything or have any sort of conversation without someone hurling some sort of wild accusation of "racist." 

[Tom Froemming]

The thing I especially took issue with was Kinsler saying he hopes kids watch the US and play like them and not play like the Puerto Ricans. Why? Kinsler acknowledged that the US team played with emotion and passion as well, but what, they were just doing it right and Puerto Rico was doing it wrong? I don't get it.

 

Probably the greatest display of emotion in the entire tournament came from Pat Neshek in that game against the Dominicans. It was awesome, it was raw, it was genuine ... just like pretty much every other celebration during the tournament.

 

Throughout the entire WBC, I never once saw a player show up another guy. Yeah, there was a lot of celebrating, but it was players being excited about their accomplishments (or the accomplishments of their teammates) rather than trying to disrespect the opponent. 

[TheLeviathan]

Kinsler's words are part of a much larger narrative in baseball that demeans the way the Latin American players play the game.  Instructing kids to not watch how they play the game is another bold step in that direction.

[John Bonnes]

I think this is a fair question.

 

No, every cultural clash is not racism. But yes, this particular topic usually is a white person making a comment about a non-white player (or team). When something is that consistent, it's worth examining if part of the difference is racial.

 

It's probably worth noting that it's certainly not 100%. Certainly part of it is generational. It is not uncommon to hear the older criticize the younger for their emotion, whether it is retired ballplayers, announcers or a veteran like Kinsler.

 

As a ounter-example to the racial charge, what about Bryce Harper? Has he been criticized for emotional displays? Or has he been praised for them?

[KirbyDome89]

 

When the group you are disagreeing with always has the same color skin?  (Not white) Yeah, then it might be a little racist.

 

I just can't subscribe to the line of thinking. There are absolutely aspects of other cultures (North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, ect...) that I find appalling, and I'm certain many others do as well. Disagreeing with someone of another skin color doesn't mean you're automatically a racist. Cultural differences/preferences and racism need to stop being conflated. 

 

We don't have to agree with his take on the issue, but he should be allowed to voice a critique without being mislabeled and painted as a social pariah.  

[Squirrel]

I think this is a fair question.

 

No, every cultural clash is not racism. But yes, this particular topic usually is a white person making a comment about a non-white player (or team). When something is that consistent, it's worth examining if part of the difference is racial.

 

It's probably worth noting that it's certainly not 100%. Certainly part of it is generational. It is not uncommon to hear the older criticize the younger for their emotion, whether it is retired ballplayers, announcers or a veteran like Kinsler.

 

As a ounter-example to the racial charge, what about Bryce Harper? Has he been criticized for emotional displays? Or has he been praised for them?

Exactly. The inconsistency of criticism, and from whom, is pertinent. If Kinsler was making that comment about all emotional displays, okay, but he singles out a sector. Yes, part of it is cultural misunderstanding, imo, however, instead of just negating it, Kinsler should immerse himself to understand why it is. Isn't racism rooted in ignorance of a people and culture and generalizations? Instead he says 'Play like us, not like them.' Us and them. Hmmmm ...

[tarheeltwinsfan]

I always preferred the player who had just homered, who puts his head down and trots briskly around the bases. Or the pitcher who holds his head high and walks calmly off the mound after an inning ending strike-out. But that's just the way I was raised in my family..."Do not brag" was instilled into me by my parents. I never liked players who would hot dog, however that may be. I don't like a boxer or a linebacker who glares and stands over his downed opponent, who is slow to get up. I don't like touchdown dances. I'm a trial lawyer and I don't like showboats in court either. I do like to win, but I act like I've done it before...like I expected to win. I shake hands with the opposing attorney after the case is over and I congratulate him/her, whether I win or lose. I think it is good manners to do these things.

[rghrbek]

It's really hard for me to call this flat out racism.  It's complicated.  If anything, Kinsler has played with Latino players his whole career, it comes off more as jealousy or ignorance.  Since he has played with and against so many Latinos, I would lean toward the jealousy angle.  

 

People don't often agree with, or even like others who are different and achieve the same amount of success.  To me it comes off as an angry rant of an old school player saying "get off my lawn!"

 

Regardless I was not a fan of his comments.

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

Suppressing of feelings is a huge issue in this US culture. Huge. 

 

I guess I don' see how being overjoyed you just hit a HR is bragging, or showing someone up, or anything of the sort at all. It's called being happy and expressing your joy.

[John Bonnes]

 

I just can't subscribe to the line of thinking. There are absolutely aspects of other cultures (North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, ect...) that I find appalling, and I'm certain many others do as well. Disagreeing with someone of another skin color doesn't mean you're automatically a racist. Cultural differences/preferences and racism need to stop being conflated. 

 

We don't have to agree with his take on the issue, but he should be allowed to voice a critique without being mislabeled and painted as a social pariah.  

 

First, I'll agree with you that there is room for disagreement on this issue and discussion of the other side of this issue, without going Defcon 5. However, I'll also say I think there is room to discuss if there is at least a slight racial component to it. Or even if there is an urge (maybe natural, maybe not) to interpret someone's actions differently based at least partially on their skin color.

 

With this topic and baseball, it's hard to find an example of a team that is mostly white but plays baseball and would've played baseball, so I'm reduced to hypotheticals. But I'll try one:

 

What if Australia would've advanced and had some fiery reactions to their wins and on field theatrics. (My brother lives in Australia and I can totally see this happening.) Would there have have been criticism of it? Or would it mostly have been praised as "showing emotion." It sure feels to me like it would have been the latter. 

 

[Mike Sixel]

did Kinsler rip Stroman for showing emotion? Just curious....

[Vanimal46]

 

I always preferred the player who had just homered, who puts his head down and trots briskly around the bases. Or the pitcher who holds his head high and walks calmly off the mound after an inning ending strike-out. But that's just the way I was raised in my family..."Do not brag" was instilled into me by my parents. I never liked players who would hot dog, however that may be. I don't like a boxer or a linebacker who glares and stands over his downed opponent, who is slow to get up. I don't like touchdown dances. I'm a trial lawyer and I don't like showboats in court either. I do like to win, but I act like I've done it before...like I expected to win. I shake hands with the opposing attorney after the case is over and I congratulate him/her, whether I win or lose. I think it is good manners to do these things.

 

I can appreciate acting like you've been there before too. There's a time and place for when you should act like you've been there before, and showing pure joy on the field. If Taylor Rogers does a big fist pump and moon walks off the field when they're losing 9-1 in the middle of June, then yeah, let's settle down a bit. 

It seems like this topic is always brought up during emotionally charged times... Usually during playoff season, or a tournament like the WBC. That's what bothers me, when someone else criticizes how a player is supposed to act when emotions are running high. 

[nicksaviking]

I won't say it's racism (though I won't say it's not racism either) but I will say there's no way I'd want Ian Kinsler on my team if I had any kind of notion to make my team up of the best players I possibly could from all corners of the Earth.

 

Homogeny is boring. And limiting.

[laloesch]

My opinion is that this is a REALLY big stretch to say it's racism.  Is it because its a white guy is saying it?  Would it be okay if it was an African American or Spanish American instead?  What exactly is racist about what he said?  I think people need to back off the rush to throw out the race card every time they disagree with something.  

 

"I hope kids watching the W.B.C. can watch the way we play the game and appreciate the way we play the game as opposed to the way Puerto Rico plays or the Dominican plays. That’s not taking anything away from them. That just wasn’t the way we were raised. They were raised differently and to show emotion and passion when you play. We do show emotion; we do show passion. But we just do it in a different way."

 

I just don't see how that's racist.  He is basically saying that American baseball is played differently than how Puerto Rico, Domincan, Koreans, etc play the game. To deny that is flat out ridiculous.  I see no mention of race just region.  Different teams / cultures DOO show emotion differently, just like many Minnesotans of Euro heritage have a propensity to be passive aggressive stoic.  

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I just can't subscribe to the line of thinking. There are absolutely aspects of other cultures (North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, ect...) that I find appalling, and I'm certain many others do as well. Disagreeing with someone of another skin color doesn't mean you're automatically a racist. Cultural differences/preferences and racism need to stop being conflated. 

 

We don't have to agree with his take on the issue, but he should be allowed to voice a critique without being mislabeled and painted as a social pariah.  

 

Your first paragraph might be true, but it's not that simple.  At some point a cultural difference can become racism.  And in baseball there is frequently disproportionate criticism leveled on latin players for their behavior.  That speaks to me of an element of racism.

[laloesch]

 

Your first paragraph might be true, but it's not that simple.  At some point a cultural difference can become racism.  And in baseball there is frequently disproportionate criticism leveled on latin players for their behavior.  That speaks to me of an element of racism.

 

Really?  please provide examples of "disproportionate criticism leveled on latin players", because i'm curious to read about them.  

[KirbyDome89]

 

Your first paragraph might be true, but it's not that simple.  At some point a cultural difference can become racism.  And in baseball there is frequently disproportionate criticism leveled on latin players for their behavior.  That speaks to me of an element of racism.

I agree it certainly can. I just don't see that as the case in this instance. You're right, the way Latin players carry themselves on the field is criticized. Is that because they have brown skin or is that because they're a counterculture? Obviously there will be contribution from each side but regarding Kinsler's remarks I see it as very much the latter. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I agree it certainly can. I just don't see that as the case in this instance. You're right, the way Latin players carry themselves on the field is criticized. Is that because they have brown skin or is that because they're a counterculture? Obviously there will be contribution from each side but regarding Kinsler's remarks I see it as very much the latter. 

 

All I'm suggesting is that there is some of both.  Even if Kinsler doesn't know it. 

 

And it is common and disproportionate.  Ask Jose Bautista.

[gil4]

 

"I hope kids watching the W.B.C. can watch the way we play the game...." 

They're not, Ian. If they wanted kids to get into it, they wouldn't start the games so late and end way past their bedtime on a school night.  

No kidding. It went past my bedtime and I'm not even on the east coast.  I went to bed after Berrios' good inning, and thankfully missed his not-so-good inning.  Apparently he had some help from our old friend J.C. Romero, who I couldn't believe was still pitching.  I guess he is still just 40, but it seems like it was almost that long ago he pitched for the Twins.

[Craig Arko]

I suppose if I was going to be picky, I'd say 'supremacism' instead of 'racism.'

 

But no matter how else you categorize it, basically 'bull****' would be the correct meta-category to file this under. And we're up to our heads in that already. No more is required.