Rotation "Set"

[Thrylos]

 

As Ash noted the MLB and players jointly operate the WBC. Is that true or not?

 

From here:

 

The World Baseball Classic is the premier international baseball tournament, sanctioned by the World Baseball Softball Confederation (WBSC), and operated as a joint venture between Major League Baseball and its Players Association.

 

This means that participating players are sharing the profits with MLB, and some $ goes to the coffers of the MLBPA.  Nothing more nothing less and has nothing to do with the CBA.

 

 

[beckmt]

If the Twins send Berrios back to AAA it isn't a punishment and it isn't because they need to see him dominate AAA hitters again, so you may as well stop repeating those thoughts. Nobody is arguing those points.

 

The perfectly valid reasons for him to start in AAA is:

 

1) He's the only one with options and he hasn't demonstrated that he's any more ready than May to start. This is May's last opportunity and we have to find out now if he can hold down a starting gig. Hughes is the one that's really pushing him out.

 

2) He has to make real adjustments to his delivery to improve command and eliminate tipping his pitches. These are things he generally gets away with at AAA and gets absolutely clobbered for in the bigs. He'll get more practice on that in AAA by being in a more controlled environment and going deeper into games where he can build up confidence and repetitions. In the bigs he'd just be getting hammered and knocked out in 3 innings, slowing down his progress at the expense of MLB losses and the bullpen. The thing to remember here is he won't be evaluated on his box score, but by demonstrating to his coaches that he's made the necessary changes for succeeding at the highest level. So save yourself some heartburn when he isn't promoted the first two weeks just because you see some good lines on his stat sheet.

He has already been there and done that. You must think players are without feelings or egos. If he gets beat out fine, but Viola in the 80's did stay up and work it out, it worked. He also has more coaches at the major league level than in Rochester. IF he was tipping his pitches, it will be found at the major league level and then, maybe correct it in Rochester. Time is ticking in Minnesota and most of the Twins pitchers do not have Berrios's upside. At Rochester he only has Cliburn and Cliburn has 12 pitchers to help and reports to write, at the major league level he has Guarderro, and Allen plus the catcher coaches.

I am worried in the 2 offseasons when the organization has decisions to make, you will not have the data so you will have to guess, and the possible downside is tremendous.

[Willihammer]

 

From here:

 

The World Baseball Classic is the premier international baseball tournament, sanctioned by the World Baseball Softball Confederation (WBSC), and operated as a joint venture between Major League Baseball and its Players Association.

 

This means that participating players are sharing the profits with MLB, and some $ goes to the coffers of the MLBPA.  Nothing more nothing less and has nothing to do with the CBA.

So a team that discourages players from participating would be running afoul of the MLB and MLBPA both. Doesn't seem like a good spot to be in.

[Taildragger8791]

 

He has already been there and done that. You must think players are without feelings or egos. If he gets beat out fine, but Viola in the 80's did stay up and work it out, it worked. He also has more coaches at the major league level than in Rochester. IF he was tipping his pitches, it will be found at the major league level and then, maybe correct it in Rochester. Time is ticking in Minnesota and most of the Twins pitchers do not have Berrios's upside. At Rochester he only has Cliburn and Cliburn has 12 pitchers to help and reports to write, at the major league level he has Guarderro, and Allen plus the catcher coaches.
I am worried in the 2 offseasons when the organization has decisions to make, you will not have the data so you will have to guess, and the possible downside is tremendous.

 

He was found to be tipping pitches. It's a serious part of why MLB hitters smashed on him last year. He flashes his grip to the hitter during his windup and the off-speed and fastball grips are easily discernible. When it was first reported last year I paid attention to his next game and was able to call most of his pitches from home before every release. If my untrained eye can see that from home then you know the best hitters in the world are keying on it easily. He needs to fix it and that isn't an overnight adjustment for someone that's been throwing with the same motion for his whole career.

[Mike Sixel]

 

He was found to be tipping pitches. It's a serious part of why MLB hitters smashed on him last year. He flashes his grip to the hitter during his windup and the off-speed and fastball grips are easily discernible. When it was first reported last year I paid attention to his next game and was able to call most of his pitches from home before every release. If my untrained eye can see that from home then you know the best hitters in the world are keying on it easily. He needs to fix it and that isn't an overnight adjustment for someone that's been throwing with the same motion for his whole career.

 

something the minor league coaches didn't catch....that's kind of the point here.

[Willihammer]

 

He was found to be tipping pitches. It's a serious part of why MLB hitters smashed on him last year. He flashes his grip to the hitter during his windup and the off-speed and fastball grips are easily discernible. When it was first reported last year I paid attention to his next game and was able to call most of his pitches from home before every release. If my untrained eye can see that from home then you know the best hitters in the world are keying on it easily. He needs to fix it and that isn't an overnight adjustment for someone that's been throwing with the same motion for his whole career.

Every hitter is taught to dial into the release point. These guys throw way too hard to look anywhere else, even the arse area where Berrios pinky was sticking out. The question is, were hitters seeing that pinky with their peripheral vision? Its possible but I'm skeptical.

[Taildragger8791]

 

something the minor league coaches didn't catch....that's kind of the point here.

 

Maybe they did but Berrios didn't think he needed to make the adjustment since he was getting results against inferior hitters. Either way, now that they're aware of it and Berrios has seen the results of his way they can make a plan and do something about it. If the AAA coaches can't coach then why the hell are they there? Fire them all then.

 

I don't see the value in letting the player get thoroughly dominated and demoralized in the bigs if he's ineffective. And fans don't want to watch 2-3 months of losses and utter failures from unprepared prospects trying to learn on the job.

[KirbyDome89]

 

A couple of things (btw, this is a good read on WBC and about how teams feel about their players participating) :

 

- The process goes like this:

 

1. Players declare interest to WBC teams
2. WBC teams select players
3. MLB teams grant them permission to go

 

- It is very unusual for players who are in a bubble to want to play.  For example: ByungHo Park told the Korean team that he was not interested and once under contract with the Twins Breslow withdrew from team Israel to try to make the Twins.  In the WBC you either see Veterans who have made their teams or minor leaguers with no hope to make their MLB team (like Dereck Rodriguez for the Twins)

 

- Number 3 above is pretty typical.  It is very rare for a team not to grant permission and those conversations usually happen before the players indicate interest to the WBC teams.  Not granting permission is bad politics, because it is MLB-sponsored and all that jazz, but teams hate to have players they depend on to play at the WBC, esp. pitchers whose preparation gets all out of whack.

 

- So players like Berrios, Santiago, Vargas, and Rosario are putting themselves at a disadvantage by participating and they know it.  By participating definitely show that they do not care whether or not the will prepare like the rest of their teammates and have an optimal spring training to turn that mess of a team around, as much as playing for their Commonwealth's team.

 

The point is not that the Twins have granted them permission (they pretty much had to.)  They should have assessed their situation and the team's situation and should had know better than to ask.

 

 

PS. Winter ball is different: 3 parties: players, winter team, MLB team.  All have the right to ask and the right to deny.  And usually all happens all the time.  There are times that the Twins have asked players to play winter ball (last one Hicks) and the players declined, and vice versa.

If you take time off from work to attend a family wedding you don't care about your job.

If you cancel a vacation with friends because a child gets sick you clearly don't care about your relationships. 

If you choose to participate in the WBC at the expense of some ST you don't care about your team. 

 

Notice the similarities. These statements are all fallacious. 

[Taildragger8791]

 

Every hitter is taught to dial into the release point. These guys throw way too hard to look anywhere else, even the arse area where Berrios pinky was sticking out. The question is, were hitters seeing that pinky with their peripheral vision? Its possible but I'm skeptical.

 

It was blatant enough to see with peripheral vision. Granted I have a different view on a tv screen, but I tried keeping my eyes on his release point and looking for a flash of color in my peripheral. I forget which way it goes but in one case you see a lot more of the ball and get a clear flash of white, whereas in the other grip he palms or covers the ball with his fingers more and you don't see the flash of white nearly as prominently. Good hitters have incredible vision and reflexes and can key on that.

[Thrylos]

 

If you take time off from work to attend a family wedding you don't care about your job.

If you cancel a vacation with friends because a child gets sick you clearly don't care about your relationships. 

If you choose to participate in the WBC at the expense of some ST you don't care about your team. 

 

Notice the similarities. These statements are all fallacious. 

 

Not that many similarities.  WBC is not a wedding or a sick child, i.e. circumstances that someone does not have control over.  WBC is a choice. 

 

Here are those statements amended to be similar:

 

Taking time off work to do the same work part time at another place for a couple weeks

Canceling a vacation with friends to spend that time with other friends

Getting off ST to play at the WBC.

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Maybe they did but Berrios didn't think he needed to make the adjustment since he was getting results against inferior hitters. Either way, now that they're aware of it and Berrios has seen the results of his way they can make a plan and do something about it. If the AAA coaches can't coach then why the hell are they there? Fire them all then.

 

I don't see the value in letting the player get thoroughly dominated and demoralized in the bigs if he's ineffective. And fans don't want to watch 2-3 months of losses and utter failures from unprepared prospects trying to learn on the job.

 

Frank Viola....2 years with an ERA over 5......

[KirbyDome89]

 

I don't think he's saying he's being punished or anything like that.  It's just a decision that makes it more difficult to evaluate him when we already have a limited time, when his last chance to impress didn't go super well, and when he's not the next in line for the rotation.  

There's a difference between giving guys a shot at the rotation and holding a 12 man try out for 5 spots.  There were 2 spots open, 1 if Hughes is healthy.  
 

We'll have to disagree on what is and isn't punishment. 

 

That last sentence is exactly the problem. Nobody has a problem with a guy like Santana being a lock. The issue is when you have a pitching staff as bad as they do and by March 5 they've "locked," in 4/5 of the rotation and included in that group is a guy coming off of a major surgery who hasn't shown he is close to being back to MLB ready. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Not that many similarities.  WBC is not a wedding or a sick child, i.e. circumstances that someone does not have control over.  WBC is a choice. 

 

Here are those statements amended to be similar:

 

Taking time off work to do the same work part time at another place for a couple weeks

Canceling a vacation with friends to spend that time with other friends

Getting off ST to play at the WBC.

They're all choices. Decisions regarding those choices are made based on precedence. Because a person chooses A doesn't mean that they don't care about/see option B as important. That is a fallacy. 

[Taildragger8791]

 

Frank Viola....2 years with an ERA over 5......

 

Yes, what's your point? Is there some reason Viola couldn't have pitched in the minors for another year or two instead? Obviously it worked out but I don't think being dumped in the majors so early is what made Viola into a great pitcher, that was going to happen regardless. And it helps that Viola was at least somewhat surviving by managing 6 innings per start over those years, whereas Berrios has been absolutely drowning at barely above 4 innings per start with no sign of progress. You can't even compare the two. You can't keep running a guy out there who can't go past 4 innings and puts your team in a deep hole every time out.

 

I'd be cool with giving Berrios a shot to open the season in Minnesota if Hughes proves not to be healthy and ready, but if he is then we're basically stuck with the 5 guys we got until someone gets hurt or plays themselves out of a job. It's totally fine to let the guy go back to AAA for a bit until everyone is comfortable he's ready to try again.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Frank Viola....2 years with an ERA over 5......

 

I'm not getting this logic at all, especially since Viola was pitching in a different era.

 

I don't mind letting Berrios struggle to an extent, but he got brutalized and has things to work on... so let him work on them. He's going to be in MLB at some point, and there's no reason to incur service time while he's failing at MLB. He has stuff to work on.  That's what the minors are for.

 

Baring injury, he will be pitching for Minnesota at some point.

[Mike Sixel]

My logic....guys in the majors are NOT finished products. Joe Maddon said this several times last year. guys work on things in the majors. Look at Koskie and his defense....Players are NOT finished products, ever.

 

I am told, over and over, not to expect guys to succeed at first, then when they don't, I'm told they should be in the minors because they are failing.....

 

At some point, he's learned what he can learn against lesser competition, and needs to move on. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

My logic....guys in the majors are NOT finished products. Joe Maddon said this several times last year. guys work on things in the majors. Look at Koskie and his defense....Players are NOT finished products, ever.

 

I am told, over and over, not to expect guys to succeed at first, then when they don't, I'm told they should be in the minors because they are failing.....

 

At some point, he's learned what he can learn against lesser competition, and needs to move on. 

 

I get what you're saying, but the key word is "at some point".  I don't think that point is there. Berrios came up and pitched 14 games and got shelled. 

 

There's nothing wrong with sending a guy back down after he fails to give him some things to work on. That's why he has options. 

 

He's not one of the best 5 guys on the team right now. That, we can safely say. He may have the most upside of anyone on the team, but he's got a laundry list of things to work on.  At this point, that can be done in AAA. He will be back up at some point this year, giving a guy like Hughes a shot to see if he still has something in the tank will not derail his career.... and if Hughes fails, then Berrios can come back, hopefully with some changes to his approach that will better ensure future success.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I get what you're saying, but the key word is "at some point".  I don't think that point is there. Berrios came up and pitched 14 games and got shelled. 

 

There's nothing wrong with sending a guy back down after he fails to give him some things to work on. That's why he has options. 

 

He's not one of the best 5 guys on the team right now. That, we can safely say. He may have the most upside of anyone on the team, but he's got a laundry list of things to work on.  At this point, that can be done in AAA. He will be back up at some point this year, giving a guy like Hughes a shot to see if he still has something in the tank will not derail his career.... and if Hughes fails, then Berrios can come back, hopefully with some changes to his approach that will better ensure future success.

 

Other than utterly dominating at every level, what would you want to see before you called him up?

[Taildragger8791]

 

Other than utterly dominating at every level, what would you want to see before you called him up?

 

He was called up. Then he failed spectacularly, proving he wasn't as ready as we thought. Now he can go back and work on some things and come up to try again. Probably in a month or two. Not that big of a deal. It happens with prospects sometimes. Unfortunately for the Twins it seems to happen way too often, but that's another issue that needs resolving.

 

The disconnect here is that you seem to be arguing players can't do anything valuable in the minors if they're already putting up good box scores. I don't subscribe to that idea. I think guys can get reps to work on things in a lower leverage environment while not worrying that every little mistake is going to get punished horribly. Then he can come up when he's developed some consistency and comfort with his changes.

[Mike Sixel]

 

He was called up. Then he failed spectacularly, proving he wasn't as ready as we thought. Now he can go back and work on some things and come up to try again. Probably in a month or two. Not that big of a deal. It happens with prospects sometimes. Unfortunately for the Twins it seems to happen way too often, but that's another issue that needs resolving.

 

The disconnect here is that you seem to be arguing players can't do anything valuable in the minors if they're already putting up good box scores. I don't subscribe to that idea. I think guys can get reps to work on things in a lower leverage environment while not worrying that every little mistake is going to get punished horribly. Then he can come up when he's developed some consistency and comfort with his changes.

 

I'm not making any such blanket statement about all players, not one time on this thread.....

 

I'm suggesting that because he failed in his first taste does not mean he's not ready to be in MN and learning there (with their best pitching coach), and not in AAA where he dominated.

[Taildragger8791]

 

I'm not making any such blanket statement about all players, not one time on this thread.....

 

I'm suggesting that because he failed in his first taste does not mean he's not ready to be in MN and learning there (with their best pitching coach), and not in AAA where he dominated.

 

I guess that's where we just have to agree to disagree then. I think whether or not he dominated in AAA already is totally irrelevant and there is still value in letting him go back and work on things with their perfectly capable coaches who have been instructed on what he needs to do to get back. If you can't rely on those coaches to help with a couple of basic adjustments then they need to fire the whole staff and start over.

 

He doesn't need to be a finished product to be promoted but he does have to be able to tread water before he can really be let loose for an extended period to learn at the big league level. It's not fair to his teammates to put him out there to when he's downright drowning and placing all the stress on them to pick up the slack.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I guess that's where we just have to agree to disagree then. I think whether or not he dominated in AAA already is totally irrelevant and there is still value in letting him go back and work on things with their perfectly capable coaches who have been instructed on what he needs to do to get back. If you can't rely on those coaches to help with a couple of basic adjustments then they need to fire the whole staff and start over.

 

He doesn't need to be a finished product to be promoted but he does have to be able to tread water before he can really be let loose for an extended period to learn at the big league level. It's not fair to his teammates to put him out there to when he's downright drowning and placing all the stress on them to pick up the slack.

 

And that's my question....how will you know if he can "tread water" in the majors? What would look different in AAA than what he did last year?

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Other than utterly dominating at every level, what would you want to see before you called him up?

 

I'd like to see him fix whatever it was that was causing MLB hitters to tee off of him like he was throwing batting practice. I don't care what the box scores said.  He wasn't ready.  Asking him to work on those items isn't unreasonable.

[Taildragger8791]

 

And that's my question....how will you know if he can "tread water" in the majors? What would look different in AAA than what he did last year?

 

I just have to trust the coaches to assess that based on their evaluation and criteria they set. It's not going to be based on box scores, it's going to be based on what they're seeing in his delivery, command/control, and overall approach to hitters. There were reports he was modifying his delivery due to the pitch tipping possibility, by bringing the ball straight back instead of around his back, so that's a legitimate thing that needs monitoring and a controlled environment to work on.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

And that's my question....how will you know if he can "tread water" in the majors? What would look different in AAA than what he did last year?

 

Because he has a list of things that people want to see done differently.  And his coaches will have that list too.  And they will watch him because that's what they are paid to do.  And when they see that, they call tell Falvey and Levine at their next meeting that he's doing much better in these areas and is ready for another shot...which will probably come by end of May at the latest... So I don't get the problem here.

 

All we do is look at box scores. Oh, 9ks in 7IP... he's got nothing left to learn.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Because he has a list of things that people want to see done differently.  And his coaches will have that list too.  And they will watch him because that's what they are paid to do.  And when they see that, they call tell Falvey and Levine at their next meeting that he's doing much better in these areas and is ready for another shot...which will probably come by end of May at the latest... So I don't get the problem here.

 

All we do is look at box scores. Oh, 9ks in 7IP... he's got nothing left to learn.

 

Here are all the posts where I said he had nothing to learn:

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Here are all the posts where I said he had nothing to learn:

 

and every other post you insist he needs to be in the majors despite the fact that he was absolutely shelled when he was there.

 

You've concluded, whether you've said it or not, that he's incapable of learning anything else in the minors. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

and every other post you insist he needs to be in the majors despite the fact that he was absolutely shelled when he was there.

 

You've concluded, whether you've said it or not, that he's incapable of learning anything else in the minors. 

 

No, I've concluded that he is better off learning it in MN. not that he can't learn ANYTHING in the minors. Why do people insist in putting words in my mouth?

[Thrylos]

 

My logic....guys in the majors are NOT finished products. Joe Maddon said this several times last year. guys work on things in the majors. Look at Koskie and his defense....Players are NOT finished products, ever.

 

I am told, over and over, not to expect guys to succeed at first, then when they don't, I'm told they should be in the minors because they are failing.....

 

At some point, he's learned what he can learn against lesser competition, and needs to move on. 

 

I agree 100% with this.  

 

However, the pitcher that Berrios should be replacing is the 34 year old Santana and not the 27 year old May or 29 year old Gibson, or 29 year old Rodriguez or 31 year old Hughes, all of whom might (*)  be around when the Twins turn around.

 

From the point that the Twins did not trade Santana, does not make any sense to half-rear end a rebuild (again) and get non-ready pitchers in the majors.  If  they blew up the house, like the Viola teams did, it would had been a totally different story.

 

(*) Clearly they are looking at 2017 as an evaluation year and they will be evaluating existing players (and managers/coaches and FO etc.)   To have someone in the majors who they know is not ready does not make sense under these circumstances.  As I said, had they blew it all up...

[Mike Sixel]

 

I agree 100% with this.  

 

However, the pitcher that Berrios should be replacing is the 34 year old Santana and not the 27 year old May or 29 year old Gibson, or 29 year old Rodriguez or 31 year old Hughes, all of whom might (*)  be around when the Twins turn around.

 

From the point that the Twins did not trade Santana, does not make any sense to half-rear end a rebuild (again) and get non-ready pitchers in the majors.  If  they blew up the house, like the Viola teams did, it would had been a totally different story.

 

(*) Clearly they are looking at 2017 as an evaluation year and they will be evaluating existing players (and managers/coaches and FO etc.)   To have someone in the majors who they know is not ready does not make sense under these circumstances.  As I said, had they blew it all up...

 

That is a good take, and I am no fan of the off season.