And that's really the core of my argument. One could make a rationed argument that neither Gibson, Hughes, nor Santiago should be in the rotation to start the season.

 

Who do you cut? And why?

 

 

I cut Tonkin/Boshers/O'Rourke etc. I like what the Dodgers and Cubs do, they have no problem sending their journeymen vets to the pen and calling them back to the rotation upon need. Are Hughes and Santiago really much different than Bud Norris, Joe Blanton, Travis Wood, Trevor Cahill, Clayton Richard or Edwin Jackson?

 

These things tend to sort themselves out very quickly. What's the likelihood the Twins make it out of mid-May without one injury in the rotation? 50/50?

 

And that's not even bringing up a possible demotion or outright release.

 

Can they demote any of the pitchers other than May? I don't think so.

 

Who would they release after 1 month? I can't see them acting that fast.

 

As for injury, I can buy that, but odds are it is for a start or three....then what?

Can they demote any of the pitchers other than May? I don't think so.

 

Who would they release after 1 month? I can't see them acting that fast.

 

As for injury, I can buy that, but odds are it is for a start or three....then what?

Twins pitchers have a way of being ineffective, then coming out with an injury, then disappearing for 60 days..

 

Twins pitchers have a way of being ineffective, then coming out with an injury, then disappearing for 60 days..

 

good point, depressing, but good point.

In 2016 AL teams used an average of just over 10 starting pitchers per team. The need for a 6th (and 7th amd 8th...) will come quick.

 

Few things are more overrated than the 25 that break camp and few things are more underrated than starting pitching depth.

These things tend to sort themselves out very quickly. What's the likelihood the Twins make it out of mid-May without one injury in the rotation? 50/50?

 

And that's not even bringing up a possible demotion or outright release.

50/50 is extremely generous.

OTOH the most likely injury candidates are also the most fringey guys to be starting in the first place.

 

Hughes- recovering from TOS surgery

Gibson- shoulder injury in 2016 prompting new workout routine

May- recurring back problems

OTOH the most likely injury candidates are also the most fringey guys to be starting in the first place.

 

Hughes- recovering from TOS surgery

Gibson- shoulder injury in 2016 prompting new workout routine

May- recurring back problems

Yes. I would be quite stunned if all three make it out of April unscathed. But there is also a pretty good chance that 1 or 2 of them pitch somewhat decently.

 

In 2016 AL teams used an average of just over 10 starting pitchers per team. The need for a 6th (and 7th amd 8th...) will come quick.

Few things are more overrated than the 25 that break camp and few things are more underrated than starting pitching depth.

 

I don't know. I don't want Berrios to come up, make 2 starts, and then go back down.....it isn't about number of starters, it's about which starters get 20+ starts. I want that to be Berrios, so he either learns up here, and they know they can count on him in 18 and beyond, or they learn that maybe he's not all that good, and they need to go get more SP.....

 

we won't learn that in a few spot starts.

 

I would have no consternation about the situation any which way it turns out if all things were equal. The issue comes when the guys at the bottom of the pole then have to "earn" a spot even when the incumbent vets are bad.

 

Or worst yet, when the incumbent vet is doing just enough to keep his job but not enough to help the team win. Then you get a Pelfrey-like stalemate.

agreed, and I think Levine's strategy to solve this was to trade Dozier for more than one high minors pitching prospect so he could cut one or two of Hughes, Santiago, Gibson and get his pipeline moving without sacrificing depth. It didn't work. That's OK, to Brock's point, Berrios is probably getting 20-25 starts in the bigs anyways because someone is getting hurt or cut in the first 6-8 weeks of the season.

 

Trades don't happen until June or July. They just don't.

 

Unless a team, let's say, Texas, loses a couple starters before that...

 

Yes. I would be quite stunned if all three make it out of April unscathed. But there is also a pretty good chance that 1 or 2 of them pitch somewhat decently.

I think we'd all be stunned. But if one or all of them were put in the pen it wouldn't be a surprise to seem them stay healthier longer.

 

These are the 3 guys who - barring a stroke of good luck, like Hughes regaining 2-3 mph, will labor through long innings of work as starters.

 

agreed, and I think Levine's strategy to solve this was to trade Dozier for more than one high minors pitching prospect so he could cut one or two of Hughes, Santiago, Gibson and get his pipeline moving without sacrificing depth. It didn't work. That's OK, to Brock's point, Berrios is probably getting 20-25 starts in the bigs anyways because someone is getting hurt or cut in the first 6-8 weeks of the season.

 

Why do people think Berrios is the first one called up?

 

What about Meija? Or, if he's in AAA, Voglesgang? Or moving Duffey to the rotation for a "start or two while Hughes is on the 15 day dl"?

 

You want him in AAA as depth? None of the other starting candidates are going anywhere. The pool to chose from is the same whether or not he has a rotation spot. 

I don't "want" him at AAA for depth. The 40 man roster needs AAA depth, and doesn't have quality depth behind Mejia, and you need more than 1. The pool is not the same because if you cut Hughes or Santiago, or stick them in the bullpen, they are no longer an option for the rotation (in a short time frame).

 

Let me be clear, the second to last thing I want to see is Hughes throw 90 MPH on opening day for the Twins. The last thing I want to see is Yohan Pino pitch for the Twins. 

 

Can they demote any of the pitchers other than May? I don't think so.

 

They can put them in the pen and demote relievers or DL them

 

Unless a team, let's say, Texas, loses a couple starters before that...

 

Sure, go back and look at the last 5 years, and show me all the trades in April and May.....

 

Why do people think Berrios is the first one called up?

 

What about Meija? Or, if he's in AAA, Voglesgang? Or moving Duffey to the rotation for a "start or two while Hughes is on the 15 day dl"?

you're right, I'm assuming Berrios is the first one called up, but he may not be. Duffey is probably the fall back to Hughes but will ultimately end up in the bullpen this season and Mejia is probably the designated short stint call up guy. More than likely Berrios would be called up second or if someone went on the 60 day DL or was cut altogether. They may not want to jerk around Berrios to much

you're right, I'm assuming Berrios is the first one called up, but he may not be. Duffey is probably the fall back to Hughes but will ultimately end up in the bullpen this season and Mejia is probably the designated short stint call up guy. More than likely Berrios would be called up second or if someone went on the 60 day DL or was cut altogether. They may not want to jerk around Berrios to much

I doubt Berrios would be first one called up if it is only a start or two, that would be Mejia or one of the AAA fillers.

 

But a longer term injury or demotion would be Berrios, assuming he is performing.

 

In 2016 AL teams used an average of just over 10 starting pitchers per team. The need for a 6th (and 7th amd 8th...) will come quick.

Few things are more overrated than the 25 that break camp and few things are more underrated than starting pitching depth.

 

That's why you stick the back-of-the-rotation vets in the pen where they can be summoned quickly. Having a couple of vets like Hughes and Santiago in the pen gives the team lots of flexibility without having to go to AAA every week and worrying about wasting options and whom to DFA.

 

OTOH the most likely injury candidates are also the most fringey guys to be starting in the first place.

 

Hughes- recovering from TOS surgery

Gibson- shoulder injury in 2016 prompting new workout routine

May- recurring back problems

Santana is 34, which in baseball years is kinda like dog years

Shouldn't be a surprise that the rotation was mostly set a long time ago and with familiar faces. The Twins gotta play these guys somewhere and they're on the roster.

Edited March 10, 20179 yr by Doomtints

 

I don't "want" him at AAA for depth. The 40 man roster needs AAA depth, and doesn't have quality depth behind Mejia, and you need more than 1. The pool is not the same because if you cut Hughes or Santiago, or stick them in the bullpen, they are no longer an option for the rotation (in a short time frame).

 

Let me be clear, the second to last thing I want to see is Hughes throw 90 MPH on opening day for the Twins. The last thing I want to see is Yohan Pino pitch for the Twins. 

Me neither.

 

I guess I would rather Berrios start in the rotation and a guy like Hughes begin in the bullpen. If they need an emergency starter Mejia can give them that until Santiago/Hughes is stretched out. I view Berrios starting and a potential spot start by Mejia/name your AAA starter as a better option than a lesser pitcher (Hughes/Santiago) getting starts while Berrios is in AAA. 

 

You'll start seeing those changes later this year. Falvine aren't going to gut the FO just b/c. They need to figure out who needs to stay and who should go.

I get that, and hopefully we do. Like I said though, the organization has gone about business as usual which is concerning given how the team has performed the past 6 years. Criticizing them for such isn't totally unwarranted. 

You need more than 1 guy in AAA Stashed away because it seems that you will start around 9 to 10 different starters during the course of any given season. 

 

Also... The Twins just invested 24 Million in a guy whose primary skill is pitch framing. I can only assume that was done to see if better pitch counts can help the starters improve those crappy numbers from last year. Giving them the tools to succeed before making hard decisions on them. I'm Ok with this as long as they don't cling to them throughout the year while under performing. 

 

I have no problem with Berrios starting in AAA and if he dominates AAA again. I don't believe he will be there very long. He will be the first guy called up and probably before April is out. 

 

Having Berrios, Duffey and Mejia in Rochester is good news in my opinion and we will see them in the majors this year. All of them... unless they can't get AAA hitters out and if they can't get AAA hitters out... Then we have a much larger problem and it could last awhile. 

I get that, and hopefully we do. Like I said though, the organization has gone about business as usual which is concerning given how the team has performed the past 6 years. Criticizing them for such isn't totally unwarranted.

I think all teams generally handle young pitchers very similarly, and for good reason.

 

I'm probably in the minority, but I never thought roster management of available assets by the Ryan regime was all that much of a problem. They were just really bad at talent acquisition, on all levels.

 

Sure, go back and look at the last 5 years, and show me all the trades in April and May.....

 

Here are then numbers of trades the last 3 years in March and April.  For details baseball reference's transaction page is your friend.

 

2016
March: 5
April: 1

2015
March: 6
April: 5

2014
March: 6
April: 8

 

I think all teams generally handle young pitchers very similarly, and for good reason.

I'm probably in the minority, but I never thought roster management of available assets by the Ryan regime was all that much of a problem. They were just really bad at talent acquisition, on all levels.

Count me in the majority on that one. 

That's why you stick the back-of-the-rotation vets in the pen where they can be summoned quickly. Having a couple of vets like Hughes and Santiago in the pen gives the team lots of flexibility without having to go to AAA every week and worrying about wasting options and whom to DFA.

bullpen games kill your bullpen.

Well, looks like Berrios may get the 5th spot after all. If Seth's tweet about May is correct. Sucks for May if he needs TJS.

This is why you keep as much depth as possible as long as you can. Bummer for May, but perhaps he was broken for a while.