Article: Nishioka Gets Another Shot

[bird]

While feeling a little guilty laughing at another's foibles, I confess I was humored by the thought of Nishi adding to my already rich history of individual player ineptitude dating back to 1961 for me. Hosken Powell came to mind for me. At least Houston Jiminez had a reason to take a glove out to his position.

 

 

But I gotta say, if they trot Nishi out there for the next 25 games, I will become more and more humorless I'm afraid. Maybe the brain trust has seen something we haven't, but I just can't imagine Nishi turning things around. Give me Casilla and Carroll any day of the week over Nishi! Prove us wrong, boys. This'll add a nice little side interest to a lost season I guess.

[nokomismod]

Casilla has to be wondering, "I am that awful that Nishi is playing in front of me??".

[DaveW]

I don't think there's enough time in the MiLB season to send down Dozier and expect any kind of results... unless they do it right now.

 

Maybe it would just be a wake up call? Gardy seemed to indicate that maybe he would need that. Sounds like he likes the kids potential but frustrated with the results thus far. "Get him out of that I'm-in-the-big-leagues mentality" is somewhat telling. It never hurts to light a fire under the ass from time to time, hopefully they don't keep him down as long as they did Bartlett though.

 

"The option is to send him back down, get him grounded again, get him out of that I'm-in-the-big-leagues mentality and then bring him back up," Gardenhire said.

 

Gardenhire stressed how much he likes Dozier but acknowledged the team has had repeated discussions about sending him back to Rochester.

"If he continues to struggle offensively -- he's not drawing walks -- is it the right thing to do?" Gardenhire said. "We talked about that at the All-Star break, and believe me, I've wondered myself. I don't have any intention of doing it right now, but that could change tomorrow. It really could."

 

[DaveW]

While feeling a little guilty laughing at another's foibles, I confess I was humored by the thought of Nishi adding to my already rich history of individual player ineptitude dating back to 1961 for me. Hosken Powell came to mind for me. At least Houston Jiminez had a reason to take a glove out to his position.

 

 

But I gotta say, if they trot Nishi out there for the next 25 games, I will become more and more humorless I'm afraid. Maybe the brain trust has seen something we haven't, but I just can't imagine Nishi turning things around. Give me Casilla and Carroll any day of the week over Nishi! Prove us wrong, boys. This'll add a nice little side interest to a lost season I guess.

Well, if he continues to look as inept as he did last night I would guess 25 would turn into 7 or 8 pretty quickly.

[DPJ]

Maybe it would just be a wake up call? Gardy seemed to indicate that maybe he would need that. Sounds like he likes the kids potential but frustrated with the results thus far. "Get him out of that I'm-in-the-big-leagues mentality" is somewhat telling. It never hurts to light a fire under the ass from time to time, hopefully they don't keep him down as long as they did Bartlett though.

That's a great message to send to the club...send down the guy who although he's struggled actually has a reason to be at the big league level. So they can play the Asian fellow who has no busy at the MLB level, but he's owed some money.

[DaveW]

That's a great message to send to the club...send down the guy who although he's struggled actually has a reason to be at the big league level. So they can play the Asian fellow who has no busy at the MLB level, but he's owed some money.

How many at bats does Dozier have in the majors this year? 300

How many at bats does Nishi have in the majors this year? 5

Dozier is going to end up with at least 4 times as many at bats and Nishi won't be around next year as well.

That isn't the message they are sending.

[JB_Iowa]

You can only keep playing Nishi until he starts demoralizing pitchers.

 

Fortunately the Twins came through in the 2nd last night and made Nishi's personal performance a non-issue in terms of the outcome of the game.

 

But that probably won't always be the case. We've got some fairly inexperienced pitchers out there. Having to overcome fielding errors is probably helpful to a point but at some point it has to demoralize the pithcer -- and the team.

[DPJ]

How many at bats does Dozier have in the majors this year? 300

How many at bats does Nishi have in the majors this year? 5

Dozier is going to end up with at least 4 times as many at bats and Nishi won't be around next year as well.

That isn't the message they are sending.

Doz is up and should stay up cause he offers some hope in the infield, Nishi is just for no other reason then cause he's owed money. I think it would send a pretty ****ty message to send down one guy who rightfully deserves to be in the majors while playing a guy that has no business being on a major league roster.

[DaveW]

Doz is up and should stay up cause he offers some hope in the infield, Nishi is just for no other reason then cause he's owed money. I think it would send a pretty ****ty message to send down one guy who rightfully deserves to be in the majors while playing a guy that has no business being on a major league roster.

One could argue that neither "deserves" to be in the majors now. I like Doziers potential, but the guy has a .269 OBP and .324 slugging%

[DPJ]

One could argue that neither "deserves" to be in the majors now. I like Doziers potential, but the guy has a .269 OBP and .324 slugging%

And who do you replace Dozier with then huh? Yeah Dozier hasn't been great but who the hell is there in this organization that's better while offering some potential for the future.

[Craig Arko]

You can only keep playing Nishi until he starts demoralizing pitchers.

 

Fortunately the Twins came through in the 2nd last night and made Nishi's personal performance a non-issue in terms of the outcome of the game.

 

But that probably won't always be the case. We've got some fairly inexperienced pitchers out there. Having to overcome fielding errors is probably helpful to a point but at some point it has to demoralize the pithcer -- and the team.

This. When it drags the team down it's not acceptable.

 

I'm fine with sending Dozier down for a few weeks when Plouffe comes off the DL, though. See if Bruno can jump start him again. Carroll is a perfectly good SS until then.

[Nick Nelson]

Doz is up and should stay up cause he offers some hope in the infield, Nishi is just for no other reason then cause he's owed money. I think it would send a pretty ****ty message to send down one guy who rightfully deserves to be in the majors while playing a guy that has no business being on a major league roster.

Why are you so concerned about the "message" being sent? The Twins need to do what's best for them as a team. The notion that Dozier has somehow earned anything is silly.

[DPJ]

Why are you so concerned about the "message" being sent? The Twins need to do what's best for them as a team. The notion that Dozier has somehow earned anything is silly.

Where the hell did I use the word earn slick?

 

Dozier is up and should stay up cause he's the best the Twins have now and for the future...and that's what's best for the team.

[JB_Iowa]

Where the hell did I use the word earn slick?

 

Dozier is up and should stay up cause he's the best the Twins have now and for the future...and that's what's best for the team.

But is that what's best for his long-term future (and the team's long-term future)? He's had a long taste of the big leagues -- maybe a return to AAA to work on some specifics is what he needs.

 

I honestly don't know the answer but I'm not willing to dismiss the possibility that he goes to AAA, works on some things and is better off for it in the long run. (Yes, I know there's the possibility that it works the other way but then that tells you something about him, too.)

[TheLeviathan]

Do what's best for Dozier - I'm sure we can find someone to stand at shortstop for a few months of a wasted season.

[PopRiveter]

It is kind of hilarious, actually. I like to hum the Benny Hill theme song whenever a ball gets hit his way...

You just made the game more fun for everyone who read this comment! Awesome!

[Nick Nelson]

Where the hell did I use the word earn slick?

 

Dozier is up and should stay up cause he's the best the Twins have now and for the future...and that's what's best for the team.

That seems to be your implication. As if there's some great injustice in one bad player being rostered over another.

 

What's best for the team is what's best for the player. Dozier looks overwhelmed and he's not showing any meaningful signs of improvement. If the coaching staff feels he'd benefit from a return to Triple-A to work on some things, then so be it. That approach has helped plenty of players before.

[TheLeviathan]

I still can't wrap my head around the logic that you just keep tossing players out there that have a future with this team, no matter how much it hurts their development, simply because the season is lost. The players that belong out there in that situation are Capps, Pavano, Nishi and anyone else that some miracle might give them value to be claimed or traded for.

 

A guy like Dozier should be part of the future plans, letting him repeatedly fall on his face doesn't help him with his future. It hasn't been helping him the last month either when people were using the same logic in June. Then a 5 game streak in early July somehow confirmed that insanity, but the truth is he's been overmatched. And he's been overmatched for awhile.

[DPJ]

That seems to be your implication. As if there's some great injustice in one bad player being rostered over another.

 

What's best for the team is what's best for the player. Dozier looks overwhelmed and he's not showing any meaningful signs of improvement. If the coaching staff feels he'd benefit from a return to Triple-A to work on some things, then so be it. That approach has helped plenty of players before.

So I never use the word "earn" but you thinks that's what I'm implying...top notch as always Mr Nelson.

 

I don't think he needs to return to AAA, I think he needs to take his hacks and lumps and go through what most rookies go through. Plus what's the point of sending a guy down for a few weeks only to call him up when rosters expand in September.

[StormJH1]

I still can't wrap my head around the logic that you just keep tossing players out there that have a future with this team, no matter how much it hurts their development, simply because the season is lost. The players that belong out there in that situation are Capps, Pavano, Nishi and anyone else that some miracle might give them value to be claimed or traded for.

 

A guy like Dozier should be part of the future plans, letting him repeatedly fall on his face doesn't help him with his future. It hasn't been helping him the last month either when people were using the same logic in June. Then a 5 game streak in early July somehow confirmed that insanity, but the truth is he's been overmatched. And he's been overmatched for awhile.

Well, first of all, I don't think Nishi has ANY value, even if he were somehow hitting .280 and stealing some bases. His skill sets profile as a utility infielder, but I'm pretty sure he's the worst middle infielder defensively in the AL, or possibly all of baseball. I'm not kidding. I'm trying out MLB TV for a month or so, so if I come across someone worse around the league, I'll happily correct myself.

 

The problem the Twins have is they lost basically an entire generation of prospects under Smith's watch. Granted, many of those were originally drafted by Ryan in the first place, or they had medical problems, or the disaster known as the Rochester Red Wings failed to prepare them with basic baseball skills. I'm talking mostly about the draft classes from 2004 (Plouffe) to 2006 (Valencia). Plouffe looks like one of the few position players to really emerge out of that haul, though there are some guys that are even more recent (Revere - '07) that are starting to contribute.

 

So when you talk about the assumption that terrible teams should give playing time to the next wave of prospects...well, the "next wave" is all 18-21 year olds right now. Otherwise, they are injured (Benson, et al) or non-prospects (Pretty much the whole AAA team). When you look at the end of 2011, you saw bad teams bringing up guys like Ackley, Hosmer, Moustakas, Chisenhall, and Kipnis all over baseball. I would LOVE to watch one of those bad teams. Unfortunately, the Twins are going to need "bridge" guys..probably more washed up vets..to even make it to the point where we can see if Sano, Rosario, Arcia, etc. are major league ballplayers. And that's not even addressing the pitching rotation, which is much worse condition. There are still some great players on this team that are fun to watch, but in terms of general outlook, it's a dark time for Twins fans.

[TheLeviathan]

So when you talk about the assumption that terrible teams should give playing time to the next wave of prospects....

Well, I think you might have missed my point. The logic that "We're bad" means "Play a bunch of young kids" leaves out the important piece of "play a bunch of young kids WHO ARE READY". You don't just call up a kid because you suck - call him up because it will help his development.

 

I'd argue we haven't been helping Dozier's development for about 2 and a half months. It's too late to rectify it now probably, but the guy hasn't been making much of any progress for a long time now. Just because we're bad isn't an excuse to continue that method.

 

Hopefully that was better articulated.

[DPJ]

I'd argue we haven't been helping Dozier's development for about 2 and a half months. It's too late to rectify it now probably, but the guy hasn't been making much of any progress for a long time now. Just because we're bad isn't an excuse to continue that method.

 

Hopefully that was better articulated.

Maybe Dozier just isn't a major league player, instead of looking for improvments the Twins are getting a good look if this kid is even a major league starter. Even with his .890 OPS and plus defense (RP) this could just be the case of a guy that can't hack it. Granted I'd still give him all of next season before the guy is written off, but I personally nothing wrong with throwing a kid in the deep end and seeing if he's gonna sink or swim.

[iatwins]

Good lord, Reusse is murdering both Nishioka and the front office on 1500 right now. Actually pretty entertaining.

[DPJ]

Good lord, Reusse is murdering both Nishioka and the front office on 1500 right now. Actually pretty entertaining.

Well it is one of the most colossal mistakes in scouting I've ever seen. How the hell do you give up 15 million dollars for a guy that can't play baseball? He can't hit, he can't field...he has no tools besides speed that would lead you to believe he could be an everyday player.

[snepp]

Well it is one of the most colossal mistakes in scouting I've ever seen. How the hell do you give up 15 million dollars for a guy that can't play baseball? He can't hit, he can't field...he has no tools besides speed that would lead you to believe he could be an everyday player.

He sure had a sexy batting average that one season in Japan though.

[DPJ]

He sure had a sexy batting average that one season in Japan though.

BABIP'ed the Twins outta 15 million.

[John Bonnes]

Well it is one of the most colossal mistakes in scouting I've ever seen. How the hell do you give up 15 million dollars for a guy that can't play baseball? He can't hit, he can't field...he has no tools besides speed that would lead you to believe he could be an everyday player.

FWIW, I don't think it was the Twins scouting that let them down on this one. I know some folks who saw the Twins scouts reports on Nishi, and they say it was pretty accurate. I assume it didn't say "AA Player" in big red letters, but it did estimate his skills appropriately.

 

I've also heard from some people that the problem with the Nishi signing was that the tail was wagging the dog - the Twins wanted to expand to Japan for revenue reasons and Nishi (and the pitcher they just lost out on) were their attempts to do so.

[SBG]

FWIW, I don't think it was the Twins scouting that let them down on this one. I know some folks who saw the Twins scouts reports on Nishi, and they say it was pretty accurate. I assume it didn't say "AA Player" in big red letters, but it did estimate his skills appropriately.

 

I've also heard from some people that the problem with the Nishi signing was that the tail was wagging the dog - the Twins wanted to expand to Japan for revenue reasons and Nishi (and the pitcher they just lost out on) were their attempts to do so.

If the Twins pretty much knew that he was worthless and still paid $15 million to get him, does that make the situation any better? I think that makes me even more unhappy with this trainwreck.

[Boom Boom]

FWIW, I don't think it was the Twins scouting that let them down on this one. I know some folks who saw the Twins scouts reports on Nishi, and they say it was pretty accurate. I assume it didn't say "AA Player" in big red letters, but it did estimate his skills appropriately.

 

I've also heard from some people that the problem with the Nishi signing was that the tail was wagging the dog - the Twins wanted to expand to Japan for revenue reasons and Nishi (and the pitcher they just lost out on) were their attempts to do so.

This is interesting stuff, John, but if all this is true then I like the Nishioka signing even less now.

[JB_Iowa]

If the Twins pretty much knew that he was worthless and still paid $15 million to get him, does that make the situation any better? I think that makes me even more unhappy with this trainwreck.

I don't think hat they knew he was worthless. I think that this was a MASSIVE ORGANIZATIONAL FAILURE -- and that's why no one was fired over it.

 

I suspect that there was some failure in scouting -- my bet is that the scouts raised some concerns but that they didn't put up a "stop sign" on signing him. And then, I think that the desire to gain an entree into the Japanese market overrode any "red flags" that the scouts may have raised.

 

A failure at all levels in the process. We can only hope that they've learned a lesson from it and that they keep marketing out of the baseball decisions.