February 15, 20179 yr So, as part of some of the projects we do with Call To The Pen, I was assigned to put together the Twins all-time 25-man roster. I'm thinking along these lines for candidates: C - Joe Mauer, Earl Battey1B - Harmon Killebrew, Joe Judge, Kent Hrbek2B - Rod Carew, Buddy Myer3B - Eddie YostSS - Joe Cronin, Zoilo VersallesLF - Goose GoslinCF - Kirby Puckett, Clyde MilanRF - Sam Rice, Tony Oliva, Bob AllisonSP - Walter Johnson, Bert Blyleven, Brad Radke, Johan Santana, Jim KaatBullpen - Joe Nathan, Rick Aguilera, Camilo Pascual, Dutch Leonard Any thoughts?
February 15, 20179 yr What! No Gladden?!?! Sorry I just had to. He is a polarizing guy but was involved in the 9th inning in both series wins.
February 15, 20179 yr One other thought and this has been a thing for a while but the title,,,,, Twins means Minnesota,,,,,, franchise can mean Senators IF you want.
February 15, 20179 yr I agree. Although they are part of the franchise legacy, they are not part of the Twins experience. Lets keep this to Twins players only.
February 15, 20179 yr If we are limited to just the Twins, I vote for Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen at 2nd base and shortstop.
February 15, 20179 yr If you are including the franchise best got to include Heinie Manush, he is a Hall of Famer. The other question is are you looking for the players with the best performance as members of the Twins' franchise, or for the best players to ever wear the Twins' uniform (e.g. Molitor, Winfield, Carlton should be included if the second is true.)? If you are looking for performance in a Twins uniform only and only the Minnesota years. Gleeman wrote this for SABR, and likely answers all your questions. SP - Pascual and Viola were better than Radke btw.
February 15, 20179 yr Author They are part of the organization's history, and a Senators-only team would technically include two different organizations. Pascual wouldn't make either a Twins-only or a Senators-only list, but he's a sure-fire guy that has to be involved on a combined one. It'd be a different ballgame to do a Twins only... C - Mauer, Battey1B - Hrbek, Morneau2B - Rod Carew, Knoblauch3B - Killebrew, GaettiSS - Smalley, VersallesOF - Puckett, Oliva, Allison, Torii Hunter, TovarSP - Blyleven, Radke, Santana, Kaat, ViolaRP - Nathan, Aguilera, Guardado, Perkins, Jim Perry The toughest picks:- Battey vs. Brian Harper, very similar Twins bWAR (14.3 to 13.4), Harper led the 1991 WS squad, but Battey has the aspect of being an African-American catcher in the 1960s, which is a fairly big deal as well. - Shortstop. Smalley has a fairly significant lead on anyone else in the org in career production, but Versalles and Gagne were on successful teams. - Infield. My personal feelings for Hrbek aside, both Killebrew and Carew have arguments to play first instead, and Knoblauch is a top 7 guy for Twins career bWAR for position players in only 6 seasons in the organization. - Final bench spot. Tovar's infield/outfield versatility won over taking the "other shortstop" between Gagne and Versalles for me. In pitching, the only real question I considered was using Liriano rather than Perry as Liriano truly did work as a swing man in his career.
February 15, 20179 yr Author If you are including the franchise best got to include Heinie Manush, he is a Hall of Famer. The other question is are you looking for the players with the best performance as members of the Twins' franchise, or for the best players to ever wear the Twins' uniform (e.g. Molitor, Winfield, Carlton should be included if the second is true.)? If you are looking for performance in a Twins uniform only and only the Minnesota years. Gleeman wrote this for SABR, and likely answers all your questions. SP - Pascual and Viola were better than Radke btw. Just stats/performance with the organization. I did look hard at Manush, but it's hard to fit him in on the overall org one. Value statistics would debate the Radke stance. Many threw shade on him, but Radke is very near the top-rated pitcher in the history of the Twins-only end of the franchise. He had 45.6 bWAR in his Twins career. Blyleven is the only guy ahead of him with 49.3 as a Twin. Include in the Senators, and the only guy who is added in is Johnson. Many Twins fans drastically underrate just how quality Radke was for a long time for the Twins.
February 15, 20179 yr I am pleased to see Battey as the second catcher. We talk about vet presence and in an era when racism was still rampant on the field Battey handled Latin pitchers like Pascual and Ramos and black pitchers like Mudcat Grant as well as Kaat and other pitchers with equal ability. He was ahead of his time in controlling the field and it is hard to use the WAR and current analytics to capture his true worth to the team. I enjoyed watching him play in all aspects.I also remember both Vic Power and Mudcat Grant as really exciting players for the Twins for their short duration and Bernie Allen was an enjoyable player as a second baseman. It is hard to compare eras - complete games in the early Twins years wore down players like Pascual and Ramos. They pitched long and often (4 man rotation) and we do not have a good system that would eliminate the innings 7 - 9 runs and hits that current rotation pitchers do not face since we are asking for only 5 - 6 innings per start. Gleeman's top fifty Twins column is fun and I appreciate having it posted here. I am like so many who want to take the Senators off the list. I love the old ballplayers, but the Twins have been here over 50 years and have their own history. They are not tainted by the pre-integration period and provide us with a sense of team that is only hinted at when we refer to pitchers like Johnson who may have been the best pitcher ever, but was definitely not a TWIN.
February 15, 20179 yr One other thought and this has been a thing for a while but the title,,,,, Twins means Minnesota,,,,,, franchise can mean Senators IF you want. The Twins claim the historical records of the Senators as part of their property. The history counts.
February 15, 20179 yr If we are limited to just the Twins, I vote for Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen at 2nd base and shortstop. How many dingers can they hit?
February 15, 20179 yr On the franchise list, I thought Gaetti was better than Yost (I may be shorting Yost, I remember him from the end of his career). I definitely think Pascual was better than Radke (Viola too). Twins only: Perry was a true swing man and I wonder if Al Worthington might be due some love, even though relief pitchers were used much differently then. These are my takes devoid of statistics, just from memory.
February 15, 20179 yr Not enough HUSTLE and GRIT on this all-time roster IMO. Find a way to put super utility man Nick Punto on this and we're cooking with fire. Edited February 15, 20179 yr by Vanimal46
February 15, 20179 yr SP - Pascual and Viola were better than Radke btw.I'd take Radke over Viola for sure. Viola had a higher peak but it was only two seasons. Radke had six 4+ rWAR seasons with the Twins, two of them peaking over 6 rWAR (and another very close at 5.8). I guess it boils down to "peak vs. career". I'll take career if the peak was only two seasons (which were extremely good, don't get me wrong). Pascual is a bit tougher, though I still probably lean Radke because Pascual played a significant portion of his career in Washington, where he had his best season overall. And Pascual played in Minnesota just six seasons, three of which hovered between bad and terrible. His other three seasons were very good, though. edit: I see we're including time spent in Washington. Then I may give the nod to Pascual over Radke. But it's still a difficult decision. Both Pascual and Viola were horrible pitchers for a long stretch of their careers. The same cannot be said for Radke, whose worst seasons were just a touch below "average league starter".
February 15, 20179 yr If we are limited to just the Twins, I vote for Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen at 2nd base and shortstop.IALTO
February 15, 20179 yr Author On the franchise list, I thought Gaetti was better than Yost (I may be shorting Yost, I remember him from the end of his career). I definitely think Pascual was better than Radke (Viola too). Twins only: Perry was a true swing man and I wonder if Al Worthington might be due some love, even though relief pitchers were used much differently then. These are my takes devoid of statistics, just from memory. Yost also had one of the best nicknames in franchise history - "The Walking Man". Before Moneyball, he was a guy posting 20%+ walk rates, which is pretty incredible. Perry was put as swing man for that reason. Liriano in consideration for lefty purposes. Worthington was definitely in consideration as well.
February 15, 20179 yr If we are limited to just the Twins, I vote for Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen at 2nd base and shortstop.Gotta have Mary-Kate at the keystone...
February 15, 20179 yr Walt Masterson's 16-inning shutout probably qualifies him to be the long reliever.
February 15, 20179 yr Author No Torii? On the Twins-only, he'd be a 4th OF, but including the whole franchise, then no.
February 16, 20179 yr Author Not enough HUSTLE and GRIT on this all-time roster IMO. Find a way to put super utility man Nick Punto on this and we're cooking with fire. My first draft was: C - Pierzynski1B - Mientkiewicz2B - Rivas3B - PuntoSS - GuzmanOF - Tyner, Gomez, MohrSP - SilvaRP - JC Romero Figured that would destroy the internet due to the tails that would have battled off in reading the article, so I had to reboot.
February 16, 20179 yr I'd swap Blackburn for Silva. Carlos was actually really good one season. We don't want that kind of stink influencing the other players.
February 16, 20179 yr Author I'd swap Blackburn for Silva.Carlos was actually really good one season. We don't want that kind of stink influencing the other players. True. I seriously mind blanked on Blackburn. Likely one of those PTSD things.
February 16, 20179 yr My first draft was: C - Pierzynski1B - Mientkiewicz2B - Rivas3B - PuntoSS - GuzmanOF - Tyner, Gomez, MohrSP - SilvaRP - JC Romero Figured that would destroy the internet due to the tails that would have battled off in reading the article, so I had to reboot.On their best days I would be so happy with this. That's why I love baseball. (Well, Tyner is pushing it. Can we say Jacque Jones instead?)
February 16, 20179 yr My first draft was: C - Pierzynski1B - Mientkiewicz2B - Rivas3B - PuntoSS - GuzmanOF - Tyner, Gomez, MohrSP - SilvaRP - JC Romero Figured that would destroy the internet due to the tails that would have battled off in reading the article, so I had to reboot. Tyner has to be the DH. I'd go with Clete Thomas, Becker, and Hockin. Danny Santana has to be there as well. Lexi for sure. Edited February 16, 20179 yr by Thrylos
February 16, 20179 yr Author Tyner has to be the DH. I'd go with Clete Thomas, Becker, and Hockin. Danny Santana has to be there as well. Lexi for sure. Oh, I figured Darling Denny would be the leader of the bench!
February 21, 20179 yr Author I was asked to just do Twins, and here is what the final product was: https://calltothepen.com/2017/02/21/minnesota-twins-all-time-25-man-roster/ Enjoy, and feel free to comment there, ask questions here, etc....
February 21, 20179 yr Ok, it was only 5 seasons but I don't know if it can be considered small sample size. Shane Mack possibly the most underrated player in Twins history had better OBP and OPS than Puckett. He had better BA, OBP, and OPS than Oliva, Hunter, Allison and Tovar and in some cases way, way better. Oliva was the only one with a better OPS+ with 131 to Mack's 130. Tovar's was 100.
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