Article: Cardinals "Very Much In" on Brian Dozier

[Mike Sixel]

 

Fair. I wasn't saying your opinion was wrong (how can an opinion be wrong?) I just didn't know where it was coming from is all. He seems like a genuinely nice person, and works hard at his craft. I just have a hard time faulting someone for that is all.

 

I do agree, he seems like a great guy, and maybe I am being unfair here....

[drjim]

The Cardinal interest seems legit to me. Not just because of the report, but because of the fit. They had been speculated on before, but it certainly makes sense that the Cards would want to upgrade at 2b and they have some pitching depth and the price might not be as high right now as they originally were led to believe.

[Mike Sixel]

 

What's wrong with being a mouthpiece for our favorite team? It's no secret he had a good relationship with TR. 

 

Absolutely nothing, unless you want to be a journalist, at which point you should be objective. If he's not a journalist, nothing at all....No place did I say there was anything wrong, I said, pretty clearly, that it is hard to take him seriously as an independent journalist who should be trusted with news, IF he's a PR arm of the team. 

[howieramone2]

 

Agreed. The prospects listed here would all be playing at some point in 2017 or 2018 more than l likely. These offers, if they are on the table, would help the Twins very soon and for the forseeable future.

 

Trading Dozier isn't a tear down. It is using an asset at its highest value to gain more assets that have longer term value than Dozier will have WITH the Twins.

That's another way of saying a tear down.

[Mike Sixel]

 

That's another way of saying a tear down.

 

trading 1 player for 2-3 that are in line to be on the roster in 1-2 years is a tear down? I think we define that differently....

[Doomtints]

It's difficult to imagine that the Cardinals would part with anyone who would be better than De Leon + any other prospect.  If this is just spin, the Dodgers aren't fooled.  If it's not spin, the Twins are going down the path of getting ripped off.  As the Twins like Dozier and aren't trying to dump off a toxic personality, a player past his prime, or a high salary, I think we can all agree that this is just spin. 

 

I'm sure the Cardinals would love to have Dozier.  He would help them.  But they just don't have the pieces to give the Twins the best offer unless this becomes a 3-team trade. 

[Cory Engelhardt]

 

That's another way of saying a tear down.

 

You think trading 1 player for 2-3 younger players is a tear down?

 

I think trading/cutting more than 5 players is a tear down. Using 1 asset to improve the whole of a team is smart management, not a tear down.

[gunnarthor]

 

It's difficult to imagine that the Cardinals would part with anyone who would be better than De Leon + any other prospect.  If this is just spin, the Dodgers aren't fooled.  If it's not spin, the Twins are going down the path of getting ripped off.  As the Twins like Dozier and aren't trying to dump off a toxic personality, a player past his prime, or a high salary, I think we can all agree that this is just spin. 

 

I'm sure the Cardinals would love to have Dozier.  He would help them.  But they just don't have the pieces to give the Twins the best offer unless this becomes a 3-team trade. 

I'm not sure the Cards couldn't beat the Dodger's offer.  As said, Weaver's a nice looking SP prospect.  His ceiling isn't as high as De Leon's but he seems more durable and safer.  Flaherty is a nice looking prospect, too.  A package around those two isn't as good as a De Leon/Alvarez package but might be better than a De Leon/Stewart type package.  

 

I think Levine knows a lot about prospects and won't get ripped off.  We don't know how the Twins new FO views De Leon or Weaver.  

[Cory Engelhardt]

 

It's difficult to imagine that the Cardinals would part with anyone who would be better than De Leon + any other prospect.  If this is just spin, the Dodgers aren't fooled.  If it's not spin, the Twins are going down the path of getting ripped off.  As the Twins like Dozier and aren't trying to dump off a toxic personality, a player past his prime, or a high salary, I think we can all agree that this is just spin. 

 

I'm sure the Cardinals would love to have Dozier.  He would help them.  But they just don't have the pieces to give the Twins the best offer unless this becomes a 3-team trade. 

 

I think a deal could be made that would get the Twins interested in working with the Cardinals. De Leon is a GREAT prospect, but he isn't a given. Will be nice to have more teams talking.

 

[howieramone2]

 

You think trading 1 player for 2-3 younger players is a tear down?

 

I think trading/cutting more than 5 players is a tear down. Using 1 asset to improve the whole of a team is smart management, not a tear down.

Trading by far your best player for pie in the sky is a sign of a tear down. Many on the board, also want them to trade Santana. I'm flexible, but I do go to 15-20 games a year and would much prefer they attempt to contend like virtually every other team. I would increase payroll and offer up our AA pitching prospects. 

[Doomtints]

 

Trading by far your best player for pie in the sky is a sign of a tear down. Many on the board, also want them to trade Santana. I'm flexible, but I do go to 15-20 games a year and would much prefer they attempt to contend like virtually every other team. I would increase payroll and offer up our AA pitching prospects. 

 

Right.   The games in 2017 still need to be played and the Twins have one starting pitcher they can trust.  At some point you have to stop digging the hole bigger and start filling it in. The Twins are coming from a weak position with pitching, not a strong one.  Trading Dozier is the best way to replenish the pitching, not trading the one legit pitcher on the team. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Doomtints

[Cory Engelhardt]

 

Trading by far your best player for pie in the sky is a sign of a tear down. Many on the board, also want them to trade Santana. I'm flexible, but I do go to 15-20 games a year and would much prefer they attempt to contend like virtually every other team. I would increase payroll and offer up our AA pitching prospects. 

 

But, you have to be honest with where you are at, and who your best players are both today and in the next 2-3-5 years.

 

Dozier is their best player. That is not up for debate. He was in 2016, and more than likely would again be in 2017. He also is turning 30 in May 2017, and is only signed through the 2018 season. With him specifically, would you...

1) Keep him through his contract, and let him leave as a free agent

2) Sign him to an extension, covering his age 32-36 year old seasons

3) Trade him now for value, since you believe option 2 isn't wise.

 

Same with Ervin. I would absolutely listen because he also isn't going to be around after 2018. He just turned 34 a couple of weeks back, and the Twins have him for his age 34 and 35 season, his contract ending after 2018. Would you...

1) Keep him through his contract, hoping he still provides similar value for the next two seasons when he is 34 and 35

2) Sign him to an extension, paying him for when he is 36 and older

3) Trade him now for value, since you believe option 2 isn't wise.

 

I do think the Twins can and should build around their youth. Buxton, Sano and Kepler are all really good young players to build around, and Jorge Polanco is right in the mix. They are also cheap, and should be good for the next 4+ years. If you can supplement and add to their core (these guys) by trading off your aging veterans, that is a very good move both for now and for the next 4+ years.

[markos]

 

I'm not sure the Cards couldn't beat the Dodger's offer.  As said, Weaver's a nice looking SP prospect.  His ceiling isn't as high as De Leon's but he seems more durable and safer.  Flaherty is a nice looking prospect, too.  A package around those two isn't as good as a De Leon/Alvarez package but might be better than a De Leon/Stewart type package.  

 

I think Levine knows a lot about prospects and won't get ripped off.  We don't know how the Twins new FO views De Leon or Weaver.  

I agree. For me, Reyes is the potential game changer who is a better pitcher than anyone the Dodgers could offer outside of Urias. De Leon and Weaver are very close. De Leon probably has a little more upside (and the projection systems like him more), but Weaver hasn't had the injury issues. They are both shortish, primarily fastball-changeup guys with fastballs in the low 90s. Weaver is younger. I don't know, they are close. I don't think they Cards have anyone who they could match with Weaver that would be better than Alvarez or Buehler on the Dodger's side. My ranking would be something like:

 

Reyes + anything

De Leon + Alvarez

De Leon + Buehler

De Leon + Anyone else == Weaver + Anyone else

 

[Mike Sixel]

Hey, if Reyes is on the table, I'd do Dozier for him straight up......so, ya, that would be great!

[Doomtints]

 

I agree. For me, Reyes is the potential game changer who is a better pitcher than anyone the Dodgers could offer outside of Urias.

 

All sources reporting this news have made it clear that Reyes is off the table.  So, no, the Cardinals can't match what the Dodgers are reportedly willing to trade. 

[markos]

 

All sources reporting this news have made it clear that Reyes is off the table.  So, no, the Cardinals can't match what the Dodgers are reportedly willing to trade. 

<sad Charlie Brown music.../>

[gunnarthor]

Cards drafted Dakota Hudson last year.  IIRC, the Twins kicked the tires on him a bit as well.  Does anyone know how the Twins scouting department viewed him?  While he hasn't pitched much in the minors yet maybe he'd be part of the package with Weaver?

[Baseball Bat]

 

So you want to do a tear down and start a new 5 year plan? No one can predict who will win the World Series, the goal is to play meaningful baseball in September.

 

Trading your second basemen for two top 100 prospects that are a year or two away is not tearing it down. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The Cardinal interest seems legit to me. Not just because of the report, but because of the fit. They had been speculated on before, but it certainly makes sense that the Cards would want to upgrade at 2b and they have some pitching depth and the price might not be as high right now as they originally were led to believe.

Does it make that much sense?  The Cardinals depth chart right now has Matt Carpenter at 1B.  If they wanted extra offense, wouldn't it make far more sense to shift him back to a 3B or 2B and add a 1B bat?  It would seem wasteful to pay a premium for a 2B under those circumstances.  (They also just gave up a draft pick to sign Fowler, so if they had wanted to bid on Encarnacion, it would have only cost them a second rounder.)

 

That's why I agree with the latter part of your post -- I think with the Dodger talks stalled, there is an opening for the Cardinals to make a modest offer for Dozier. I suspect they will come no closer to our (apparent) asking price than the Dodgers, however.

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by spycake

[DaveW]

I wonder if Doogie has the same source as Dave? Skepticism of any of these "sources" is warranted as a baseball executives really don't talk all that much to the general public about deals and dealings in general.

He doesn't. I confirmed it with my source, as I have been saying for weeks now (via my source) the Dodgers have been and remain the only serious player. The rest is just spin.

[Oxtung]

I keep seeing people say that we have plenty of 3 and 4 type starters. I feel like this isn't really accurate. We have 3 and 4 starters for what the Twins have been over the past 6-10 years, but I don't feel like we have many "league average" 3 or 4 starters. We all HOPE that some of our pitching prospects at AA and lower currently will become at least #3 or #4 starters, but man, in our current rotation, who would you quantify as #3 or #4 starters?

 

Ervin Santana.

 

To me, that's the entire list. I don't feel like the Twins have any other CURRENT DAY #3 starters. We all hope Berrios will become that, and I think he can based on his minor league numbers. But man, to poo poo the idea of a #3 starter coming back, when that is a MASSIVE upgrade to what the Twins currently have in the starting rotation, that to me isn't really a negative.

 

I'm not saying we shoot for mediocrity; the Twins should always shoot for top of the rotation level type talent. But to say someone like Luke Weaver or Brock Stewart are guys who wouldn't upgrade our rotation, to me, that is crazy.

I don't think anyone believes we currently are chock full of 3/4 types but the Twins do have Santana, Hughes, Gibson, May, Duffey, Berrios, Mejia, rule 5 guy all around for several more seasons. In addition they also have Jay, Gonsalves, Stewart and Jorge 1-2 years out. After that they have guys like Romero and Thorpe 2-3 years out. That's 14 starting pitchers that will need innings to show what they are capable of in the next few years. That also doesn't include any veterans they might want to bring in for leadership or on one year deals to recoup value with an eye towards flipping.

 

Some of those guys will not pan out but the Twins won't know who until they invest the innings to find out. I think bringing back mid rotation guys just further muddies the water; it's just another mediocre pitcher to determine if they can sink or swim in MLB.

[Doomtints]

 

I keep seeing people say that we have plenty of 3 and 4 type starters. I feel like this isn't really accurate. We have 3 and 4 starters for what the Twins have been over the past 6-10 years, but I don't feel like we have many "league average" 3 or 4 starters. We all HOPE that some of our pitching prospects at AA and lower currently will become at least #3 or #4 starters, but man, in our current rotation, who would you quantify as #3 or #4 starters?

 

Ervin Santana.

 

To me, that's the entire list. I don't feel like the Twins have any other CURRENT DAY  #3 starters. We all hope Berrios will become that, and I think  he can based on his minor league numbers. But man, to poo poo the idea of a #3 starter coming back, when that is a MASSIVE upgrade to what the Twins currently have in the starting rotation, that to me isn't really a negative.

 

I'm not saying we shoot for mediocrity; the Twins should always shoot for top of the rotation level type talent. But to say someone like Luke Weaver or Brock Stewart are guys who wouldn't upgrade our rotation, to me, that is crazy.

 

That's right.

 

Some scouts have been writing funny things along these lines lately. There are no longer just prospects projected to be "#4 starters" in the league, but there are players projected to be "#4 starters for the Twins" which are of course not nearly as good as the typical #4 starter. 

 

The Twins pitching has been so bad, they inspired their own category. (To add some clarity, most starter prospects are pegged as #4 starters. This is the baseline until they start separating themselves from the pack). 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Doomtints

[Loosey]

 

That's another way of saying a tear down.

I call it a build up.

[diehardtwinsfan]

yeah, flipping Dozier for 2 mlb ready pitching propsects is not a complete teardown...  It's not.

[Obsvr]

 I guess "very much in" means different things lol.  

 

When I saw these reports yesterday they didnt smell right...kudos to the new regime for trying to push a bit.  Too bad cold water was thrown on these rumors pretty quickly.  Would be nice if there were a few teams driving up the bidding.

[Twinfan & Dad]

Let's not forget The Twins had 32 wins at the All Star break with Dozier hitting under .250 and 14 bombs. After the the break he hit close to .300 with 28 bombs but the Twins won less games. His production occurred when the Twins weren't playing for anything but roster spots and individual stats. Dozier's 2nd half explosion did not translate to wins. At times he stunk along with the rest of the lineup pre all star break. For us to say he was the best of a bad bunch is a more accurate description. If we are to move forward and put together a competitive team he must go now. I have faith in the new braintrust that they will receive 2 or 3 prospects that will be contributors in the next few years as we reload.

[tobi0040]

If Reyes is off the table I would rather have DeLeon than a package built around the 75th best prospect who projects as a third starter. We need quality not quantity.

[HitInAPinch]

From MLBTR:  TODAY: St. Louis is not “actively” working to acquire Dozier, per ESPN.com’s Mark Saxon (via Twitter).

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/12/cardinals-brian-dozier-trade-rumors-nationals-twins.html

 

So, it appears DaveW was right.   Again.

[nytwinsfan]

 

Let's not forget The Twins had 32 wins at the All Star break with Dozier hitting under .250 and 14 bombs. After the the break he hit close to .300 with 28 bombs but the Twins won less games. His production occurred when the Twins weren't playing for anything but roster spots and individual stats. Dozier's 2nd half explosion did not translate to wins. At times he stunk along with the rest of the lineup pre all star break. 

 

So what? You really think Dozier has a tendency to play good when it doesn't matter and play bad when it does? If not, then what is the point of this? If so, aren't you drawing a correlation based on a small sample size correlation?

[Mike Sixel]

 

So what? You really think Dozier has a tendency to play good when it doesn't matter and play bad when it does? If not, then what is the point of this? If so, aren't you drawing a correlation based on a small sample size correlation?

 

Maybe the point is that no matter how good Dozier is, they won't win w/o some pitching.....that those arguing the Twins should keep Dozier are ignoring that they can't win with this pitching staff. Maybe. Not sure. That's how I read it.