POTUS Donald Trump

[Squirrel]

 

There were no statues until the 1920s, when uppity women and blacks started demanding and getting more equal rights. They are not there to remember history, they are there out of fear of loss of white male power. There was no one that flew the confederate flag until the 1950s and 60s, and we all know why they reappeared during that time frame.

 

This isn't about history.

 

As for the ridiculous argument that you can't venerate Washington or Jefferson because they owned slaves......those men formed the Union, they didn't try to destroy it. One of the great changes of the last few decades  though, now, is that we actually do have conflicted feelings about them....and, IMO, it reminds us that no one is perfect, and no one should be idolized.

Just to be clear, when I talk of historical accuracy, this is what I'm referring to.

[D. Hocking]

 

There were no statues until the 1920s, when uppity women and blacks started demanding and getting more equal rights.,

 

American Experience had something on WWI earlier this year, and a big portion of the series was the spike of attacks against blacks when people were afraid they were going to expect too much on their return.  These soldiers risked their lives and lived through hell in Europe and then were figuratively and literally spit on when they returned and worse case scenario lynched. 

 

Trump is tweeting in support of the statues today - no care or thought to how his words might further exacerbate the situation.  I think the press conference was in a way a water shed moment for him, not that he was not bad before, but I think he is going to fully embrace his alt-right side.  Sadly, so far he seems to be getting away with saying anything.  There were some tisks tisks from Congress, but nothing of real consequence or teeth.

 

I read an interesting comment that said getting rid of the statues is not erasing history, the statues themselves falsified history by glorifying the Confederate and making it something it never was.  

 

There was a nice and peaceful candle light vigil and Charllottesville last night.  Trump did not comment on it, but I am sure he is carefully crafting a thoughtful response. 

[ashbury]

Its not a mistake to paint all southerners who embrace "southern pride" as glorifying slavery?

Straw man.

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

Don't you think your viewpoint could be colored growing up in the north? Its not a mistake to paint all southerners who embrace "southern pride" as glorifying slavery?

 

I can't do that.

It's not really a 'viewpoint.' This idea of 'Southern Pride,' being explicitly 'Southern,' rather than more incrementally regional is inextricably linked to the qualities that are held in common throughout the confederacy. Chief among them: slavery - an institution of violent exploitation upon which antebellum southerners' fate and fortune were founded, without exception.

 

I don't see this as a matter of perspective. 

[Pardon My Dinger]

...and that is why anyone who refuses to peel the confederate flag decal off their rusty tailgate ought to be put on a big boat and sent off to a remote island, left to fend for themselves, without modern infrastructure/amenities, law and order, social welfare programs or anything else resembling a society based on contribution and cooperation.

 

Does that opinion make me "Alt-Left"? If so, I guess I can live with that label.

[Squirrel]

Here is a good, very basic, article with timeline:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/08/the-real-story-of-all-those-confederate-statues/

 

"No one should think that these statues were meant to be somber postbellum reminders of a brutal war. They were built much later, and most of them were explicitly created to accompany organized and violent efforts to subdue blacks and maintain white supremacy in the South. I wouldn’t be surprised if even a lot of Southerners don’t really understand this, but they should learn. There’s a reason blacks consider these statues to be symbols of bigotry and terror. It’s because they are."

[gunnarthor]

Sidebar: Interestingly, right after the Civil War, Southerners didn't hold Lee in quite the same heroic fashion some do today. There were complaints about his military strategy and his loss at Gettysburg - particularly Pickett's Charge. But the lost cause myth came out and put the failure at Gettysburg on his subordinates - mainly Longstreet whose post-civil war career saw him support Grant and join the Republicans.  

[Willihammer]

 

Straw man.

How so?

[Willihammer]

 

It's not really a 'viewpoint.' This idea of 'Southern Pride,' being explicitly 'Southern,' rather than more incrementally regional

Huh? I don't know what we're arguing about anymore. If I see a northerner with a confederate flag, I assume that person is probably a racist. And I'm the last person to throw that label at someone. I specifically said "southern" white person in my post because I think the symbolism has a more complicated heritage that includes post-Civil War years, ie. beyond slavery, for them.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Huh? I don't know what we're arguing about anymore. If I see a northerner with a confederate flag, I assume that person is probably a racist. And I'm the last person to throw that label at someone. I specifically said "southern" white person in my post because I think the symbolism has a more complicated heritage that includes post-Civil War years, ie. beyond slavery, for them.

 

No one used that flag until the civil rights era in the 50s and 60s.......so, ya, it's about racism. Always has been, always will be. If they can't understand that, that's on them......

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

Huh? I don't know what we're arguing about anymore. If I see a northerner with a confederate flag, I assume that person is probably a racist. And I'm the last person to throw that label at someone. I specifically said "southern" white person in my post because I think the symbolism has a more complicated heritage that includes post-Civil War years, ie. beyond slavery, for them.

It is about racism. It can't possibly not be about racism. Without racism, there is no confederacy, there are no status or symbols. That's the point. 

[Squirrel]

Huh? I don't know what we're arguing about anymore. If I see a northerner with a confederate flag, I assume that person is probably a racist. And I'm the last person to throw that label at someone. I specifically said "southern" white person in my post because I think the symbolism has a more complicated heritage that includes post-Civil War years, ie. beyond slavery, for them.

Have you read any of the articles I posted? For me it's even more troubling that these are from post war eras because of the specifics that they symbolize. It's as if no lessons were ever learned and there was no acknowledgement of the wrongs committed and gives license for these attitudes to continue to exist because those that want this to thrive rally around these things. These statues were erected, specifically, in the heights of Jim Crow to make sure that black people 'knew their place' and to emphasize white supremacy. There is no mistaking that. If there are those who don't see it that way, and have adopted alternate ideas of what these things symbolize, they are just wrong and likely do not know the proper history or context. And I don't think the statues can or should stay just because some either forgot or never learned their history or come up with the reasons such as 'Well, they're okay because that's not what I personally see in them.' For me that's really akin to saying, 'Well, I'm not racist so this isn't about me.' I can't say it plainer. If the only thing these statues represent is 'We are southern' and nothing more, that's really quite lazy and why nazi and white supremacist groups are able to exist. None of these statues should be on pedestals surrounded by beautiful parks because that is NOT what they are.

[USMCTwin]

My usual caveat: I'm not a Trump supporter. I found his condemnation of the evil neo-nazis too light. Saying there were good people there is despicable morally corrupt position.

 

As someone that grew up and lived in the south I feel like many of the views espoused here are too simplified or straight forward. I was happy when the Southern Baptist Convention amended their resolution to encourage members to stop flying confederate battle flags.

 

http://www.russellmoore.com/2016/06/14/southern-baptists-confederate-flag/

 

Of course it's not exactly true that no one flew the battle flag until much later or that monuments were all created later. Mississippi adopted their flag 1894. Again like Moore from the article above it should be changed. My birthplace Bowling Green, KY (yeah not a terrorist attack President Trump) has this monument 1876. Should it be torn down? It's meant to honor the men that died. I don't know. I'm deeply conflicted, but I don't think that makes me a racist.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Monument_of_Bowling_Green

 

I also think some statues such as monuments of Generals are easier calls to remove. That really seems to represent more of the movement than the loss of life of individuals at least to me. Though I don't think mobs taking to the streets to tear them down is the right way to go about it.

 

I wish we were in fact the United States of America, but that almost seems bordering on the threshold of irony which makes me terribly sad.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

If they can't appreciate the reason behind tearing them down, and only like the statutes because of their own nostalgia (which is legitimate, but in no way overrides what these statutes communicate to nonwhites (and frankly a lot of whites)--yeah, they are abating racism (less morally culpable than actual racists?) Why hold onto, and fight for, statutes that celebrate the deadliest war in our history largely over individual state's abilities to keep slavery legal.  

 

What history these statutes often depict is one of them being erected during a time just preceding the civil rights movement--there perhaps was not to champion what was best about the South, but perhaps rather to continue to assert the white race's moral authority (if not superiority) in the face of expanded rights for non-whites. 

I can't really argue with this, but I think it's a mistake for outsiders to assume an ordinary southerner today sees the statues as symbols of slavery or white oppression. 

 

edit: what poster above wrote

[drjim]

My usual caveat: I'm not a Trump supporter. I found his condemnation of the evil neo-nazis too light. Saying there were good people there is despicable morally corrupt position.

 

As someone that grew up and lived in the south I feel like many of the views espoused here are too simplified or straight forward. I was happy when the Southern Baptist Convention amended their resolution to encourage members to stop flying confederate battle flags.

 

http://www.russellmoore.com/2016/06/14/southern-baptists-confederate-flag/

 

Of course it's not exactly true that no one flew the battle flag until much later or that monuments were all created later. Mississippi adopted their flag 1894. Again like Moore from the article above it should be changed. My birthplace Bowling Green, KY (yeah not a terrorist attack President Trump) has this monument 1876. Should it be torn down? It's meant to honor the men that died. I don't know. I'm deeply conflicted, but I don't think that makes me a racist.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Monument_of_Bowling_Green

 

I also think some statues such as monuments of Generals are easier calls to remove. That really seems to represent more of the movement than the loss of life of individuals at least to me. Though I don't think mobs taking to the streets to tear them down is the right way to go about it.

 

I wish we were in fact the United States of America, but that almost seems bordering on the threshold of irony which makes me terribly sad.

Thanks for this perspective, very helpful. This situation is not nearly as straightforward as people want it to be.

 

The best compromise I saw floated was to tear down statues of leaders, keep monuments that honor the sacrifice/service of the common soldier. Probably time to rename roads/buildings/Army bases/etc as well.

[nicksaviking]

 

 

What about some southern white friends I have made. They of course appreciate and identify with the south in ways I cannot understand, and they probably like the statues, but they are not racists. Are they racists?

 

Isn't it basically the same thing as the neo-Nazi's co-opting that stupid cartoon frog as a symbol of racism, even when that's not what the creator of that stupid cartoon frog intended?

 

They might take pride in their state or their region, but for some reason they are tying their pride to symbols that really should elicit no pride. 

[twinsnorth49]

If an ordinary Southerner today doesn't see the statues as symbols of slavery and white oppression, then perhaps they should head to the library and read a history book. 

 

Ignorance is no excuse.

 

[USMCTwin]

If an ordinary Southerner today doesn't see the statues as symbols of slavery and white oppression, then perhaps they should head to the library and read a history book.

 

Ignorance is no excuse.

I'm pretty familiar with history. Perhaps you should read the link I provided about the monument in my town. Not all monuments are created equal in my mind.

 

If you don't agree, I would like to be able to agree to disagree, but calling the other person ignorant is hardly a place to start.

[Mike Sixel]

The confederate flag is literally the flag of people that fought a war to secede from the Union, so they could continue owning other humans as slaves. If people don't understand that's a BAD THING to fly, I have no idea what they are thinking. There are plenty of other "symbols of pride" for the South....

[USMCTwin]

The confederate flag is literally the flag of people that fought a war to secede from the Union, so they could continue owning other humans as slaves. If people don't understand that's a BAD THING to fly, I have no idea what they are thinking. There are plenty of other "symbols of pride" for the South....

I agree with all of this. Like Grits now surely that can be made the official symbol of the south.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I agree with all of this. Like Grits now surely that can be made the official symbol of the south.

 

I really like good grits....

[Craig Arko]

Than problem is more widespread than it's given credit for. And it's not just the South. It's not just the U.S. either, by any means, but since that's the topic here...

 

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

[twinsnorth49]

I'm pretty familiar with history. Perhaps you should read the link I provided about the monument in my town. Not all monuments are created equal in my mind.

 

If you don't agree, I would like to be able to agree to disagree, but calling the other person ignorant is hardly a place to start.

I do disagree, personally I don't think monuments dedicated to people who were commited to racist ideals should sit in public places.

 

I didn't say your opinion is ignorant, I think people who live in the South who don't understand what these symbols represent are being ignorant. I actually think there is merit to the monuments being preserved and placed in a museum to help teach people about their history.

[biggentleben]

 

Don't you think your viewpoint could be colored growing up in the north? Its not a mistake to paint all southerners who embrace "southern pride" as glorifying slavery?

 

I can't do that.

 

No, I've spent my entire adult life conversing frequently with Braves fans from the South, including the deep South. This is by no means a pervasive sentiment. It's just the loudest one.

[Craig Arko]

[ashbury]

How so?

Because what you asked me to respond to wasn't remotely what I had said.

[ashbury]

The confederate flag is literally the flag of people that fought a war to secede from the Union

You mean this?

 

http://stat.ameba.jp/user_images/20150629/13/kokoro-no-soko/1a/b1/g/t02200161_0380027813351204846.gif

 

The Stars and Bars is what the Confederacy kicked off with and kept for the majority of its time (they added stars as more states joined the club). I don't see it very often on car bumpers. What I much more often see is this:

 

 

USMCTwin helpfully pointed out that we're talking about battle flags here. I think this one is of the Tennessee Army, although there are variations and maybe it's only something close - there are square ones, rectangular ones of varying ratio, and it's hard for me to keep them all straight.

 

Later on, the Confederacy adopted a new national (or whatever they called themselves) flag, with a version of this southern-cross battle insignia on a white (heh) field, and later with a red vertical stripe to keep it from looking like an all-white (heh) flag of truce when the wind wasn't blowing. Consult Wikipedia, Snopes, or any source you prefer, if you want the fine details - I can't claim to have absorbed them all. I don't see those on car bumpers either.

 

Anyway, this isn't directed so much to you specifically, but I don't think it's much of a stretch to insist that this distinction be kept in mind. One is of a government, one is of a fighting force. If you are part of an oppressed minority today, doesn't the singular focus on the fighting force of the Confederacy, as distinguished from the folkloric genteel way of life, give you a little additional pause when you see it just beneath someone's gun rack? And is it unreasonable to kindly ask that people stop displaying the insignia of a supposedly defunct military?

[ashbury]

 

My birthplace Bowling Green, KY (yeah not a terrorist attack President Trump) has this monument 1876. Should it be torn down? It's meant to honor the men that died. I don't know. I'm deeply conflicted, but I don't think that makes me a racist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Monument_of_Bowling_Green
 

This is a good summary. I especially am moved by the description, which typified the devastation Northern invaders inflicted upon Southern homesteads. It's like, "you punched us in the nose when we tried to leave, and at the end expected us to rejoin your union with smiles and no hard feelings." And Kentucky hardly had the worst of it, though they may have had the misfortune of being on the route for one or more armies on their way to Atlanta. I hope there is a little balance to this in the presentation given by the other markers, but at first glance I have no problem with this monument. War is heck.

 

I have more of a problem with a statue in a different location in clear honor of a general who fought to keep the status quo when the tide of history was manifest in favor of individual liberty. These were guys who were big on Manifest Destiny in other contexts.

 

 

[Pardon My Dinger]

I think we are starting to split hairs at this point. All good points, though.

[jimmer]

Bannon is out!