POTUS Donald Trump

[DaveW]

I have maintained from day 1 that Biden was the correct choice.

 

He would have destroyed trump with 330+ Electoral votes.

 

I don't think Hillary was perfect, but for your claim that the country has moved so far liberal? Source needed for sure. The idea that Bernie would have won hands down is pretty absurd.

 

Biden? Wins in a landslide.

 

Hell even Hillary won in a landslide with 2.8 mil more votes

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think this is exactly what Lev and I have been talking about. Moderate by the very nature of the word is talking about compromise and middle ground. 

 

Precisely.  In order to compromise you sort of have to moderate your point of view.  Hillary, a good person who means well, is now also getting blasted for those sorts of decisions in her life time.  She has moderated and compromised and that makes her a terrible candidate apparently.  

 

Moderate or independent doesn't have to mean lacking conviction, or empty, or any of the things this thread has given examples of.  It just means someone who has their own set of beliefs and isn't beholden to any one framework.  You know, the kind of people more likely to actually solve a problem then funnel everything through their narrow framework.  

 

The right has long since ostracized most of those kinds of thinkers.  Like kab, I worry about the left splintering in it's own direction and casting off anyone too "moderate" for them.  That's a dangerous road. 

[Mike Sixel]

Today is a national bill of rights day. Might need to remind ourselves to fight for freedom of the press and religion the next few years.....

[Craig Arko]

 

Today is a national bill of rights day. Might need to remind ourselves to fight for freedom of the press and religion the next few years.....

The problem with the press is not that it's free, of course, but rather that it's bought and paid for. Freedom of religion will come when everyone decides to mind their own damn business, and not push it or take it from the next person.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Today is a national bill of rights day. Might need to remind ourselves to fight for freedom of the press and religion the next few years.....

 

We're going to have a long list of reminders....

[nicksaviking]

 

Today is a national bill of rights day. Might need to remind ourselves to fight for freedom of the press and religion the next few years.....

 

They'll be ready for the fight seeing as there is only one amendment that REALLY matters.

http://seveninchesofyourtime.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/arnold-schwarzenegger-commando.jpg

[TheLeviathan]

Anyone catch Obama's Russia comments today?

 

Damn.  Cold blooded.  And awesome.

[TheLeviathan]

Oh crap.....

[Badsmerf]

I'm completely in favor of everything Obama has done over the last couple days. Israel should not get our unwavering support. The UN is standing up against these actions, we would be fools to endorse them.

 

The fact trump continues to think he is already the president and should be able to influence policy should scare the **** out of everybody. Obama should do everything in his power to now make it difficult for trump to damage the country. Including, appointing a supreme court justice (it would only stand a year, but that is better than none). Take the gloves off Barry.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm ok with pushing back on Israel a little bit, but let's be clear also - not everything about the settlements is cut and dry.  So much of the blame for that region rests with the West's sloppy handling of the situation in the first place.  

 

And both "sides" in that conflict bear a great deal of responsibility for this mess.  I tend to slightly favor Israel, simply because they're not openly seeking to exterminate the other side.  Which I think is sort of important to note.

[DaveW]

 

I'I tend to slightly favor Israel, simply because they're not openly seeking to exterminate the other side.

Many would disagree I imagine..

 

[TheLeviathan]

Many would disagree I imagine..

 

I'm sure, but I look at it like this: if we could find a way to give both sides what they want (A Palestinian state and Israel keeps Jerusalem) which side is more likely to jeopardize that peace? I'd guess the same one that did 50 years agony and for the same reason.

[nicksaviking]

 

I'm sure, but I look at it like this: if we could find a way to give both sides what they want (A Palestinian state and Israel keeps Jerusalem) which side is more likely to jeopardize that peace? I'd guess the same one that did 50 years agony and for the same reason.

 

Then we'd be punishing a party based on stereotypes and future assumptions.

 

I'd bet if US allegiance was the other way around where we were clear allies with Palestine and we cast suspicious and judgmental eyes on Israel, it would be Israel that would be more likely to break any peace. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Then we'd be punishing a party based on stereotypes and future assumptions.

 

I'd bet if US allegiance was the other way around where we were clear allies with Palestine and we cast suspicious and judgmental eyes on Israel, it would be Israel that would be more likely to break any peace. 

 

I'm not sure I follow.  The problem here is this:

 

One side: "To preserve our existence we'll fight you"

 

One side: "As long as we exist we will fight you"

 

There seems to be the false notion that these are morally equivalent.

 

 I think drjim said this awhile ago, but I'm fully confident Israel would give back the West Bank and even disarm their nuclear program if they had full confidence their neighbors would hold the peace.

And they have every reason to have zero confidence in that today.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Then we'd be punishing a party based on stereotypes and future assumptions.

 

I'd bet if US allegiance was the other way around where we were clear allies with Palestine and we cast suspicious and judgmental eyes on Israel, it would be Israel that would be more likely to break any peace. 

 

come on, one side literally has said they want to wipe the other off the face of the planet......Israel is not w/o MAJOR issues, but have they ever said they want to exterminate the other side?

[drjim]

I'm not sure I follow. The problem here is this:

 

One side: "To preserve our existence we'll fight you"

 

One side: "As long as we exist we will fight you"

 

There seems to be the false notion that these are morally equivalent.

 

I think drjim said this awhile ago, but I'm fully confident Israel would give back the West Bank and even disarm their nuclear program if they had full confidence their neighbors would hold the peace.

And they have every reason to have zero confidence in that today.

If I didn't say it I endorse it.

 

Though I do wonder if that offer is now off the table, especially in the context of aggressive settlement building.

 

In a slightly related note, is there a more worthless organization than the UN? The frequency of anti-Israel resolutions are a joke (though I do appreciate a parting F U from Obama to Bibi). Digging into it a little more yesterday I was reminded that UNESCO passed a resoltion in October stating that the Temple Mount had no connection to Judaism.

[TheLeviathan]

 

If I didn't say it I endorse it.

Though I do wonder if that offer is now off the table, especially in the context of aggressive settlement building.

In a slightly related note, is there a more worthless organization than the UN? The frequency of anti-Israel resolutions are a joke (though I do appreciate a parting F U from Obama to Bibi). Digging into it a little more yesterday I was reminded that UNESCO passed a resoltion in October stating that the Temple Mount had no connection to Judaism.

 

I think there is a real lack of awareness here in the US about how strong anti-semitism is in Europe and the rest of the world.  The UN is a sad reflection of that.

 

I too think Israel has hardened too much (for some valid reasons and some not so valid reasons) for those peaceful solutions to happen.  

[nicksaviking]

 

come on, one side literally has said they want to wipe the other off the face of the planet......Israel is not w/o MAJOR issues, but have they ever said they want to exterminate the other side?

 

Well they have the backing of the "civilized" western world, well until now it seems. Up to this point they have had the ability to appear both magnanimous and martyr. They may have never said they wish to wipe out the Palestinians, but their actions including the encroachment sure seem to say they do. I just think if the roles were reversed it's quite likely the words and the actions would be too. 

 

Not that I want to defend the Palestinians. Without trying to be too dismissive, it feels like the mid 1990's when ESPN started pushing the Red Sox/Yankees rivalry; geographically those two clubs were in ESPN's wheelhouse and thus on TV every night. ESPN really wanted everyone to pick a side and become heavily invested. I don't want to pick a side, I think both parties are reprehensible.

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well they have the backing of the "civilized" western world, well until now it seems. Up to this point they have had the ability to appear both magnanimous and martyr. They may have never said they wish to wipe out the Palestinians, but their actions including the encroachment sure seem to say they do. I just think if the roles were reversed it's quite likely the words and the actions would be too. 

 

They have not had the backing of the West.  They've had our backing.  The rest of the West does NOT back them.  Europe wanted to dump that problem elsewhere and has continued to treat them with a similar level of spite.  

 

Settlements on a territory won (and ceded) in a war they didn't start is a far cry from stated objectives to commit genocide.

[nicksaviking]

 

 

 

Settlements on a territory won (and ceded) in a war they didn't start is a far cry from stated objectives to commit genocide.

 

If the current Palestinian leadership is still calling for genocide, yeah that's awful, but are they really doing that? Or is it just angry radicals making that claim? Because I'd guess there are plenty of just as sociopathic Israeli's who wish to wipe out Palestine.  As far as I can tell both parties just want the other gone.

 

And so I'm clear, this has nothing to do with religion and it shouldn't. This is about two nations fighting over territory.

[TheLeviathan]

 

If the current Palestinian leadership is still calling for genocide, yeah that's awful, but are they really doing that? Or is it just angry radicals making that claim? Because I'd guess there are plenty of just as sociopathic Israeli's who wish to wipe out Palestine.  As far as I can tell both parties just want the other gone.

 

And so I'm clear, this has nothing to do with religion and it shouldn't. This is about two nations fighting over territory.

 

Well, a lot of the unrest and hate rests in a long-seated religious feud.  I'm not sure you can separate them entirely.  

 

And no, the Palestinians and other neighboring countries (including Iran) still have it as a stated, not-secret objective.  The Israelis do not.  

[Badsmerf]

When the Palestinians are continually being backed into a corner, continually having to face down Israel WITH the USA baking them up, living as second class citizens... it's easy to see where radicalism comes from in the territory. Levi you're giving Israel to much leniency for their actions. I'm not by any means endorsing Palestine, they have committed more observable crimes, which is why many continue to back Israel. If a border is drawn, and Palestine gets their way and continues to threaten Israel.... It becomes a different discussion. I don't understand why Israel continues to hold on.

[TheLeviathan]

 

When the Palestinians are continually being backed into a corner, continually having to face down Israel WITH the USA baking them up, living as second class citizens... it's easy to see where radicalism comes from in the territory. Levi you're giving Israel to much leniency for their actions. I'm not by any means endorsing Palestine, they have committed more observable crimes, which is why many continue to back Israel. If a border is drawn, and Palestine gets their way and continues to threaten Israel.... It becomes a different discussion. I don't understand why Israel continues to hold on.

 

I do pity the Palestinians, they have gotten screwed over in many ways.  Europe took their land to give to Israel and then their neighbors attacked Israel and created a war that lost them further land.  So I absolutely grant they deserve their own state.  Israel should try to work with those that want peace to establish that.

 

I'd just suggest that Israel holds on because they believe any inch they give is going to turn into dozens of miles rather than just an inch.  I can't say I blame them.

[drjim]

When the Palestinians are continually being backed into a corner, continually having to face down Israel WITH the USA baking them up, living as second class citizens... it's easy to see where radicalism comes from in the territory. Levi you're giving Israel to much leniency for their actions. I'm not by any means endorsing Palestine, they have committed more observable crimes, which is why many continue to back Israel. If a border is drawn, and Palestine gets their way and continues to threaten Israel.... It becomes a different discussion. I don't understand why Israel continues to hold on.

Israel built a wall and created a de facto border and it changed nothing.

 

A big Palestinian problem is that the rest of the Arab leadership wants nothing to do with them. They are pawns to rally the base and stay in power. It is not just the US and Israel.

[nicksaviking]

 

Well, a lot of the unrest and hate rests in a long-seated religious feud.  I'm not sure you can separate them entirely.  

 

And no, the Palestinians and other neighboring countries (including Iran) still have it as a stated, not-secret objective.  The Israelis do not.  

 

I can separate it because I could care less about their religious beliefs. Having a religious state is a huge reason I dislike both parties.

 

I've heard plenty of talk from Iran about wiping out Israel, I still haven't heard anything like that from current Palestinian leadership. If there's a link I'd believe it, not that it really matters because as I said previously, I think both parties are flat out wrong and at fault already. It wouldn't make me dislike Palestine any more, I already dislike them plenty. Plenty of radicals (and Iran) have talked about wiping out the West and the US, I still don't believe in taking away and occupying their countries.

[Mike Sixel]

People have been trying to exterminate the Jews for 2000+ years....you might be a bit paranoid if that was your lot also. You can try to remove religion if you want, but that's naive, and I've met you, and you are smarter than that...sadly, religious hatred still exists. Brainwashing your citizens (saudi arabia, I'm looking at you) tends to do that....

[TheLeviathan]

Planting a religious state in the middle east was absolutely stupid. But that was Europe trying to shuffle their shame elsewhere. That selfish, stupid decision set this all off.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Planting a religious state in the middle east was absolutely stupid. But that was Europe trying to shuffle their shame elsewhere. That selfish, stupid decision set this all off.

 

In fairness, it's not like the Muslim states aren't religious. Also in fairness, where, exactly, should we have helped the Jews found a state where they could "feel safe", if not there? Africa wouldn't work. Europe wouldn't work. Asia? North America? South America?

 

There is no safe place for a Jewish state. Now, maybe there shouldn't be a Jewish state, but maybe there should....no place has been safe for them for millennia. 

[Craig Arko]

In fairness, it's not like the Muslim states aren't religious. Also in fairness, where, exactly, should we have helped the Jews found a state where they could "feel safe", if not there? Africa wouldn't work. Europe wouldn't work. Asia? North America? South America?

 

There is no safe place for a Jewish state. Now, maybe there shouldn't be a Jewish state, but maybe there should....no place has been safe for them for millennia.

 

Texas.

[nicksaviking]

 

In fairness, it's not like the Muslim states aren't religious. Also in fairness, where, exactly, should we have helped the Jews found a state where they could "feel safe", if not there? Africa wouldn't work. Europe wouldn't work. Asia? North America? South America?

 

There is no safe place for a Jewish state. Now, maybe there shouldn't be a Jewish state, but maybe there should....no place has been safe for them for millennia. 

 

Right, I'm not for any religious state, it's begging for persecution of the minority beliefs. Un-organically creating a country for a group sounds a lot like the antebellum movements to move former slaves back to Africa where they'd "feel more comfortable".

 

I get that both parties were imposed upon, it was very, very poor decision making due to motives ranging from virtuous to villainous but it can't be reversed, both sides need to compromise and neither want to give an inch. I can feel sorry for the innocent populations that have no impact on the situation most of whom likely would be fine with compromise if it meant violence ended. We've seen plenty of stories where both Israeli and Palestinian citizens have done heroic or charitably things to help a neighbor or stranger of opposite belief.  

 

But I have no pity for the countries and leadership who put pride and power ahead of peace any more than I have pity for our country or leadership when they are being stubborn and acting against the best interest of our citizens.