POTUS Donald Trump

[Doomtints]

 

You can tell yourself that all day long.  Your statement is just another form of Scientific racism, which has existed for hundreds of years.  And I'd add that it should be given even less merit given that the people producing said data are the same ones claiming to have more intellectual capacity.  Seriously, you can do better than that.

 

The left consumes propaganda just as much as the right, and I sure as hell not going to allow you or anyone else to decide what is 'dangerous', 'irresponsible', or who should be 'reprogrammed'.  Some guy named Hilter already tried that. I'd rather not repeat it.

 

I am very much taking a stand.

I'm not sure you read what I wrote.

 

The RIGHT has been using "scientific racism" as you call it ON THEIR OWN BASE. They call out the LEFT as attacking their base, which HAS NEVER HAPPENED. The purpose of this is called SCAPEGOATING. 

Almost all of the disdain for the right base is from the right elite.  The left made the mistake of not fighting this when it started 20 years ago.  Perhaps those on the left thought it was obvious b.s. to most people and believed it would go away on its own. Instead it grew.  

 

As for Hitler, he took the reigns over a Germany that had this same thing going on for a few generations. One side was being demonized long before Hitler came to power. Heck, long before WW1, which is what the history books tell you. The racism in Germany leading up to WW2 started in 1871 when Germany was unified. Numerous scholars of the day wrote that Germany needed its own cultural identity and until it had one it would be a weak nation. This meant exterminating those who did not fit. By the time Hitler came to power, there were enough people buying into this idea that made his task relatively simple.

 

Trump too has taken over the reigns of a system that was put in place years earlier. In fact, I think he took over the system by surprise. Right now the Republicans are rolling with it, using him to get what they want. But they did NOT mean to create this person, they only meant to program their base to demonize the left. Trump started aping the propaganda the right were using in mass media, but the Republican politicians never had the courage to say themselves. This made them lose control of the party.

[TheLeviathan]

 

i don't think I've coddled it, or let it fester. What would you like me to do about overly PC media, exactly? I think most people have very little influence on stuff outsider their circle of friends, saying anyone coddled it is specious at best. 

 

If you mean the political elite of the left did, that may or may not be true. I don't see Clinton or Obama acting that way in office, for example.

 

Well, couldn't your average Republican make the same argument about some of their fringe?  While personally you might not condone it, enough on the left do.  (And I don't consider you a lefty anyway, far too independent from what I've observed)

 

At some point you have to shut down the crazies and not let them represent you.  And that has to come within your own side.  And that's a huge issue of late.  We just have no willingness to say "Hey, we agree on 90% of this stuff....but on this 10% you gotta get your *@^% together"  No one seems to be willing to do that on either side.  Look at the way the righties folded on Trump as soon as he won.

 

That kind of self-policing is so damn vital and it's completely non-existent but for a few.

[Doomtints]

 

"Hey, we agree on 90% of this stuff....but on this 10% you gotta get your *@^% together"  No one seems to be willing to do that on either side.  

 

Rachel Maddow, Al Franken (when he was broadcasting), Bill Maher, the Comedy Central crew (then and now) *all* call out people on the left when they act up even though they are all clearly liberal.

 

Heck, even today, this was called out by a member of Trump's cabinet as the reason Trump won. If there is a stubborn, disdainful left I haven't seen it.  The right certainly describes this existing in vivid detail, but it's a fantasy.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Rachel Maddow, Al Franken (when he was broadcasting), Bill Maher, the Comedy Central crew (then and now) *all* call out people on the left when they act up even though they are all clearly liberal.

 

Heck, even today, this was called out by a member of Trump's cabinet as the reason Trump won. If there is a stubborn, disdainful left I haven't seen it.  The right certainly describes this existing in vivid detail, but it's a fantasy.

 

And elements of the left attack them for doing so.  Slate all but exists for this purpose.

 

You don't have to go far on social media, or listen to a celebrity talk, to hear it.  You so much as mis-speak, use the wrong word but mean well, or do anything that can be taken out of context and construed as "privileged" and there is a cadre of clowns there to lambast you for what you said.  What's new is that the right seems to be mobilizing their own version of this now.

 

I mean, hell, if you don't think this is a thing you should read up on some of the examples given in that article.  The professor and his wife with the Halloween thing is preposterous, but it's well in the vein of trigger warnings, barring speakers from campuses, and a host of other things.  Sorry, but this is not a fantasy, even if the right is unfairly capitalizing on it.

[Doomtints]

Truth. And there is no easy answer.

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I'm not sure you read what I wrote.

 

The RIGHT has been using "scientific racism" as you call it ON THEIR OWN BASE. They call out the LEFT as attacking their base, which HAS NEVER HAPPENED. The purpose of this is called SCAPEGOATING. 

Almost all of the disdain for the right base is from the right elite.  The left made the mistake of not fighting this when it started 20 years ago.  Perhaps those on the left thought it was obvious b.s. to most people and believed it would go away on its own. Instead it grew.  

 

As for Hitler, he took the reigns over a Germany that had this same thing going on for a few generations. One side was being demonized long before Hitler came to power. Heck, long before WW1, which is what the history books tell you. The racism in Germany leading up to WW2 started in 1871 when Germany was unified. Numerous scholars of the day wrote that Germany needed its own cultural identity and until it had one it would be a weak nation. This meant exterminating those who did not fit. By the time Hitler came to power, there were enough people buying into this idea that made his task relatively simple.

 

Trump too has taken over the reigns of a system that was put in place years earlier. In fact, I think he took over the system by surprise. Right now the Republicans are rolling with it, using him to get what they want. But they did NOT mean to create this person, they only meant to program their base to demonize the left. Trump started aping the propaganda the right were using in mass media, but the Republican politicians never had the courage to say themselves. This made them lose control of the party.

 

I did read what you wrote. Perhaps I misunderstood you, but the study you cited about one side having more intellectual capacity than the other was meant to build up the left, not the right (or at least the version I read was). Now perhaps you were being sarcastic, and if so I missed that completely, or perhaps you're referencing a different study that says otherwise; but again, I very much take issue with the idea that the right is the only side consuming propaganda. Everyone is susceptible to it. You are. I am. And there's plenty of it on both sides. People on both sides need to wake up to that because neither party has represented them well. 

 

The fact that you'd cite that study (if you meant it) is proof of precisely that. If you really think that people on the left are just that much smarter than the people on the right, then you sir are a big part of the problem and not the solution. It's the very definition of SCAPEGOATING and rather ironic given your stance on that issue. Now perhaps I misunderstood you, and if so, please clarify.

 

But my original point still stands. I'm rather tired of one side labeling the other as stupid. It's propaganda. It's a mechanism for ignorant people to sound intelligent to themselves while outshouting their opponent. Real problems get lost in that context, as do real solutions.

 

When Obama got elected, I reminded all of my Republican friends that they had rolled out the red carpet for him. Trump's election was the Dems doing the same. The left needs to wake up to that, or they'll be outraged again 4 years from now.

[D. Hocking]

His statement for International Holocaust Day - on surface seems normal, but the statement normally gives special acknowledgment to a group that was especially victimized by this and makes one wonder if Bannon might have drafted it.  This is also the day he chose to sign his EO banning refugees.  

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/27/statement-president-international-holocaust-remembrance-day

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

And elements of the left attack them for doing so.  Slate all but exists for this purpose.

 

You don't have to go far on social media, or listen to a celebrity talk, to hear it.  You so much as mis-speak, use the wrong word but mean well, or do anything that can be taken out of context and construed as "privileged" and there is a cadre of clowns there to lambast you for what you said.  What's new is that the right seems to be mobilizing their own version of this now.

 

I mean, hell, if you don't think this is a thing you should read up on some of the examples given in that article.  The professor and his wife with the Halloween thing is preposterous, but it's well in the vein of trigger warnings, barring speakers from campuses, and a host of other things.  Sorry, but this is not a fantasy, even if the right is unfairly capitalizing on it.

 

Having watched my fair share of Maher on HBO, I'm simply going to say that he treats the left with kid gloves. He's better than most when it comes to attacking their own, but an impartial observer he is not.

[TheLeviathan]

Having watched my fair share of Maher on HBO, I'm simply going to say that he treats the left with kid gloves. He's better than most when it comes to attacking their own, but an impartial observer he is not.

Absolutely, but impartial observers are damn near unicorns.

 

John Oliver is the only current person I can think of that might fit.

[stringer bell]

Let me tell you about my work. I worked with and now supervise 12 employees. We don't talk about politics much and never have. However, having been around most of these people for more than a decade, I know where almost all of them stand. Barack Obama probably got a majority of our votes. I don't think Clinton got a single one. This is a group that, if only voting for economic self-interest, should have all voted for the Democrat, but the 3 Gs (God, guns and gays) work against that. There is some fear and loathing of Muslim immigrants (one employee is a Somali immigrant) and distaste for those "on the dole" (welfare, disability etc).

 

The thing these employees have in common is lack of education-my replacement has a college degree, but no one else does. They lapped up much of Trump's BS without question and seemed entranced by Trump's celebrity, holding Hillary to a much higher standard for some reason.

 

My best friend at work retired about a year ago. She made it known that she supported Obama in '08 and '12, but for the last week has been posting things in support of Trump on social media. Sandy (my friend) would be classified as a labor Democrat (her husband is a retired union guy) and she too was suspicious of immigrants, especially non-whites.

 

To summarize, I think for reasons that have been discussed upthread, it seems Republicans and Trump in particular have taken the white working-class demographic, despite ample evidence that conservatives really offer them no better alternatives.

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

Per the earlier conversation, Bill Maher's final thoughts tonight absolutely roasted the same things in drjim's article.  I can't find a video yet, but it was relevant to our discussion.  (And I happen to be a big fan of everything he said, but that's my editorial)

[DaveW]

It's ****ing embarrassing that hardly anyone on the right side of the aisle is standing up to trump in any meaningful way.

 

This "Muslim" ban is not only deeply disturbing, its highly illegal. I'm ashamed to be an American at this point. Disgusting.

[D. Hocking]

I saw some video of him with Theresa May and at the swearing in ceremony yesterday.  He cannot take his eyes off of his notes for a minute and just recites what is before him as if he does not really understand what he is reading and that it was written for him. When he does go off script, it is some third grade level quip.  

 

I am sure this is a coincidence, but the ban did not include countries where he does business.  This includes Saudi Arabia, which had many of the 9-11 terrorists, even though in his statement he specifically mentioned 9-11.

 

He attacked the NYT and Wahsington Post this morning.  I am not exactly thrilled about the state of the news media right now, but more people need to call him out on his campaign to delegitimize the news.  It is not like he is subtle about it - praising Fox News and tweeting Breitbart and attacking anyone who criticizes him.  He does not even try to be honest, talking about declining subscriptions when the NYT has seen a surge since he was elected.

 

My niece is studying abroad in Spain.  I wonder what kind of reaction and coverage she is seeing of this circus over there.  His whole administration is just fear and hate.

 

And then Pence -- "life is winning again" -- as we threaten health care, gut environmental protection, and deal with a complicated refugee situation with really broad black and white strokes.....

[diehardtwinsfan]

Unfortunately, I think the news has done a pretty good job of delegitimizing themselves. Their bias is ridiculously obvious at this point, and I suspect most people are tired of it. News today is nothing more than click bait lacking any substance at all.

[TheLeviathan]

 

It's ****ing embarrassing that hardly anyone on the right side of the aisle is standing up to trump in any meaningful way.

This "Muslim" ban is not only deeply disturbing, its highly illegal. I'm ashamed to be an American at this point. Disgusting.

 

I feel strongly about the role Islam plays, but the path to a solution is the opposite of what Trump is doing.  These people seek sanctuary and hope and we are offering them hate.  We won't help modernize the faith abroad with grand, public displays rejecting it.  

 

I said it in the last discussion - these are the reformers we need so badly and we risk sending them in the opposite direction.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

It's ****ing embarrassing that hardly anyone on the right side of the aisle is standing up to trump in any meaningful way.

This "Muslim" ban is not only deeply disturbing, its highly illegal. I'm ashamed to be an American at this point. Disgusting.

 

Yeah, I agree here. It's one thing to require background checks of incoming refugees. It's another to close your borders.  I guess we need to remove Emma Lazarus from the Statue of Liberty as well. 

[D. Hocking]

 

Unfortunately, I think the news has done a pretty good job of delegitimizing themselves. Their bias is ridiculously obvious at this point, and I suspect most people are tired of it. News today is nothing more than click bait lacking any substance at all.

 

I think they are reaping what they sowed, and are not really doing what they need to do to persuade people that they are not fake.   The media has shown bias or manipulated stories to create ratings rather than present the facts so there is enough truth in Trump's criticism of the media that it is going to stick.  

 

Journalistic integrity or lack of substance has deteriorated enough, so that Trump has a tool to try and suppress any criticism or negative story about him while he elevates "news" sources that are basically propaganda tools of his party.  He can lie or do something horrible and any report of his actions is going to be doubted by enough people that it will be more difficult for the story to take off and receive any lasting impact.

 

The news media has been in sad shape for awhile, but the added element of Trump using people's lack of trust in them to help create his own version of the truth is a bit chilling.

 

[Regardless of how much to blame the media itself is for this mess, I still find it greatly disturbing that the President of the United States is attacking them or any voice that says something he does not like.]

[USAFChief]

I think the folks at "media" such as Breitbart have done a fantastic job of convincing many people that the "media" is all the same.

 

It galls me to think there are people who think there is no difference between the New York Times and The National Enquirer. I think you can probably trace the beginnings of this to Fox News.

 

It's a sad state of affairs, and I don't know the answer. That Steve Bannon has a place in the Executive Branch--and many people support him-- is a pretty clear signal to me we need significant change.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

It galls me to think there are people who think there is no difference between the New York Times and The National Enquirer. I think you can probably trace the beginnings of this to Fox News.

It started when Reagan told the FCC to eliminate the Media Fairness Doctrine in 1987.

 

It started with talk news. Fox News took it to a new level. And that paved the way for the Breitbarts of the world.

 

It's a sad state of affairs.

[jimmer]

I'm waiting for him to do something that isn't horrible.  Checking the news daily to see what ridiculous thing he's done, and the effects his decisions have had, is like watching constant horror movies.

[twinsnorth49]

I like our guys tweets better.

 

@

 

Justin Trudeau ‏@JustinTrudeau  1h1 hour ago
More
To those fleeing persecution, terror & war, Canadians will welcome you, regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength #WelcomeToCanada

[Craig Arko]

PM Trudeau is a good egg.

[ashbury]

PM Trudeau has forgotten that either you are with us or you are against us.

[D. Hocking]

 

I like our guys tweets better.

 

@

 

Justin Trudeau ‏@JustinTrudeau  1h1 hour ago
More
To those fleeing persecution, terror & war, Canadians will welcome you, regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength #WelcomeToCanada

 

If Rob Ford had ever become PM, even he would probably have better tweets and policies and bring more dignity to his office than the person in the White House right now.  

 

.http://storage.torontosun.com/v1/dynamic_resize/sws_path/suns-prod-images/1297713760634_ORIGINAL.jpg?quality=80&size=420x

 

 

[Craig Arko]

PM Trudeau has forgotten that either you are with us or you are against us.

I'm against us then.

[D. Hocking]

WTF  - Donald Trump Shuffles National Security Council.

Executive measure adds Steve Bannon while removing Director of National Intelligence, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-signs-order-to-revamp-national-security-council-1485641329?mod=e2tw

 

I have no comment at this point but WTF.

[DaveW]

ACLU doing some good work tonight, a long ways to go, but it's a start and some mother ****ing hope!

 

Feels good to get a small win on this one.

[DaveW]

PM Trudeau is a good egg.

I spend a lot of time in canada, and the general consensus (North can speak on this more than I) seems to be that Trudeau has really good ideals/thoughts/heart, but backs down too easily on things, hopefully this is one he sticks too.

 

On a very selfish side note: this is great to hear from him. I'm getting married in a few months in Canada and we have a good number of people attending from Iran. It's absurd to think that if we had it here in NYC that a lot of folks (who already spent a lot on tickets hotel etc) wouldn't be allowed to attend if president Cheeto dick had his way.

[Craig Arko]

WTF  - Donald Trump Shuffles National Security Council.

Executive measure adds Steve Bannon while removing Director of National Intelligence, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-signs-order-to-revamp-national-security-council-1485641329?mod=e2tw

 

I have no comment at this point but WTF.

Yes, this guy.

 

[gunnarthor]

I loved this tweet

 

 

ACLU drops mic