POTUS Donald Trump

[TheLeviathan]

 

 It's just difficult for me to deny all the common threads. In many white supremacy groups, Christianity and racism are so intertwined. 

 

Look at the more outward examples though.  The chants in Charlottesville were largely non-religious.  They were racist, homophobic, nationalistic, anti-semitic, and a variety of things.  But I can't find any evidence that Christianity was envoked much.  

 

Where I agree is that Christianity needs to do more.  I liked this particular piece.  But the real problem, in my eyes, is White Supremacy and Nationalism.  Their church is 4chan and their threat of terrorism is real.  Where Christianity has blame is in not doing enough, not in being embedded deeply in this threat.  That distinction may not be important to you, but it is to me.  I firmly believe we do more to fix problems when we work harder to identify their root causes and avoid conclusions we want to draw.  

[Squirrel]

 

Look at the more outward examples though.  The chants in Charlottesville were largely non-religious.  They were racist, homophobic, nationalistic, anti-semitic, and a variety of things.  But I can't find any evidence that Christianity was envoked much.  

 

Where I agree is that Christianity needs to do more.  I liked this particular piece.  But the real problem, in my eyes, is White Supremacy and Nationalism.  Their church is 4chan and their threat of terrorism is real.  Where Christianity has blame is in not doing enough, not in being embedded deeply in this threat.  That distinction may not be important to you, but it is to me.  I firmly believe we do more to fix problems when we work harder to identify their root causes and avoid conclusions we want to draw.  

It doesn't need to be invoked when the basic belief of supremacy is based in what they believe God ordains. It's at the core. Where did 'Jews will not replace us' come from?

[TheLeviathan]

 

It doesn't need to be invoked when the basic belief of supremacy is based in what they believe God ordains. It's at the core. Where did 'Jews will not replace us' come from?

 

I think you're making an inaccurate claim that these people think they need a god to ordain their racism.  Some do, many don't.  Anti-semitism absolutely has deep roots in Christianity, but it's also existed quite independent of it.

 

Either way, I don't think we're going anywhere, but I do hope you at least rethink your stance given how blatantly false some of your justifications were at the start.  Perhaps you're looking too hard to find something you want to be there.

[Squirrel]

 

I think you're making an inaccurate claim that these people think they need a god to ordain their racism.  Some do, many don't.  Anti-semitism absolutely has deep roots in Christianity, but it's also existed quite independent of it.

 

Either way, I don't think we're going anywhere, but I do hope you at least rethink your stance given how blatantly false some of your justifications were at the start.  Perhaps you're looking too hard to find something you want to be there.

I don't think they are that false. There are many white supremacy groups where this is at its core. I think it's easier to think otherwise, and a lot worse when the roots are religious.

[LaBombo]

 

 It's just difficult for me to deny all the common threads. In many white supremacy groups, Christianity and racism are so intertwined. Maybe it's easier for you to isolate these threads. It isn't for me. And I don't say that to accuse Christians and Christianity in general as being bad here. Not at all. Nor are all white supremacy groups based in Christianity, but many, and I'd say the majority, are. There are many who believe that God decreed one race being superior to another. They feel their racism is justified in these beliefs. I'd say that's pretty extreme, and the resulting actions, terrorism. And the terrorism, Christian terrorism. I get it ... to you that's a leap you cannot take. I don't find that leap so great.

 

But back to my main point ... in this country, it's the greater danger, and not Islamic terrorism.

 

The fact that you would feel compelled to go on at length about Christian terrorism on any ordinary Easter Sunday would make me wonder how hard you're trying to isolate them.

 

The fact that you're expounding on Christianity's role in terrorism on an Easter Sunday when we are still trying to determine the number of Americans (and hundreds of others) murdered today by anti-Christian terrorists... words fail me.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't think they are that false. There are many white supremacy groups where this is at its core. I think it's easier to think otherwise, and a lot worse when the roots are religious.

Your Tennessee and Louisiana examples were both false. The Louisiana one was especially egregious.

 

Seems to me you drew a conclusion and sloppily went looking for justification.

[gunnarthor]

For anyone who cares, this article from CNN, and the links it highlights, are pretty good reading on the rise of white nationalism. Unsurprisingly, Trump is a factor.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/16/politics/fact-checking-trump-on-threat-of-white-nationalism/index.html

[TheLeviathan]

 

For anyone who cares, this article from CNN, and the links it highlights, are pretty good reading on the rise of white nationalism. Unsurprisingly, Trump is a factor.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/16/politics/fact-checking-trump-on-threat-of-white-nationalism/index.html

 

The CSIS link embedded in that article is harrowing.  It's well worth a read but you won't feel good about the world when you're done.

[ewen21]

"Radical terrorist Christians" has what to do with anything we've discussed vis a vis immigration? Why is race being injected into this discussion on immigration

 

For my part, i am far more concerned about Muslim terrorists than what Carole calls "Christian terrorists"

Not sure how she got there.

[Squirrel]

"Radical terrorist Christians" has what to do with anything we've discussed vis a vis immigration? Why is race being injected into this discussion on immigration

For my part, i am far more concerned about Muslim terrorists than what Carole calls "Christian terrorists"

Not sure how she got there.

Because you said this:

Obama couldnt condemn Islamic terrorism. Where was your outrage for that?

 

I never threw a conniption over that. I know some people were angered by it but nowhere near how whites on the far left got about Trump on Charlottiesville.

 

Is Trump an Islamophobe for posting what Ihlan said with an image of 9/11 accompanying her words? Amazing how people carry on about that. I'm GLAD he did that. People who there use wouldn't see or hear those comments get to see them. I'm far more disturbed by her as an American than I am Trump.

 

For the life of me I cannot understand anyone who sees that the other way

To which I said:

Because, in my opinion, radical/terrorist Christians are a far more dangerous in this country than radical/terrorist Muslims. That could be one reason.

 

Two, because most people, yourself included it seems, want to label every Muslim a terrorist. That's just wrong in the same way not every Christian is a terrorist. But Christian radicalization in this country is the bigger threat.

[ewen21]

I don't "want to label every Muslim a terrorist"

 

Because I don't appreciate what Omar doesn't make her a terrorist. It makes her someone I cannot like that. I know people who were on the scene during that event. What Omar said makes me sick and so do people who claim it was "an inside job"

 

As far as Christian terrorist organizations go you're going to have to explain this one. We had a black president serve two terms

[LaBombo]

Easter, 2016:  75 dead, 340 injured in Lahore, Pakistan by Islamic terror attacks on Christians.

 

Palm Sunday, 2017: 45 dead, 126 injured in Egypt by Islamic terror attacks on Coptic Christians.

 

Easter, 2019: at least 240 dead (including "several" Americans), at least twice as many injured, in terror attacks on Sri Lankan Christian churches and hotels. Warnings of an impending Islamic terror attack went unheeded for 10 days.

 

I just wanted to make sure we're all on the same page here... that domestic Christianity-based terrorism is such a deadly and immediate threat that it's the sole topic of discussion here not only on the most sacred holiday of Christianity, but on the actual day of the 20th most deadly terror attack in modern history.

 

Do I have that right?

 

Because if that discussion can't wait for even one day, then I'm inclined to believe that it might be motivated by something other than concern for the well-being of others.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I just wanted to make sure we're all on the same page here... that domestic Christianity-based terrorism is such a deadly and immediate threat that it's the sole topic of discussion here not only on the most sacred holiday of Christianity, but on the actual day of the 20th most deadly terror attack in modern history.

 

Do I have that right?

 

In fairness, they are probably two different conversations.  But, yeah, it's a strange day to make that flimsy argument.

[LaBombo]

 

In fairness, they are probably two different conversations.  But, yeah, it's a strange day to make that flimsy argument.

 

Totally get what you're saying. I hate the idea of terrorism no matter the target or perpetrators, and domestic/foreign soil is a useful distinction to make.

 

But the necessity of tying Christianity to the root motivations of terrorism just hours after hundreds of its followers were once again victims of a horrific attack... there are 363 other days of the year to talk about Christianity-based terrorism besides Easter and Christmas.

 

I had thought that the left's opining that Notre Dame should be rebuilt as a secular monument to multicultural statism while the ruins were still smoldering was a look so bad that it would not be topped for a long time.

 

Instead there's a serious contender before the week is out.

[TheLeviathan]

 

.....was a look so bad that it would not be topped for a long time.

 

Instead there's a serious contender before the week is out.

 

Optimism of any kind these days is starting to look so naive it's adorable.

[LaBombo]

 

Optimism of any kind these days is starting to look so naive it's adorable.

 

You're right, and anyway I should have saved some of it for tomorrow, because Monday.

[Squirrel]

You're right, and anyway I should have saved some of it for tomorrow, because Monday.

I apologize. My comment was thoughtless considering it was a Christian holy day and considering events of the world. I should have waited to post that. I am no longer a follower of any religion so I am often oblivious to the significance of the day. That's no excuse, however, and I do apologize for commenting as I did yesterday.

 

That said, I do stand by my comment, that in this country, the threat of terrorism is greater from within, from home grown individuals and groups, and that, while not labeled as such by anyone but me, I consider Christian terrorism among them. And yes, I do think many white supremacy groups and individuals believe that God ordained them superior and that those threads of religion and racism are intertwined. Levi accepts my example of violence at women's health clinics to be an example of this, but not my statement regarding white supremacy groups. Yes, perhaps the supression that I have experienced over the years in religious organizations has led to me to a rather hard and cynical opinions on that, but I have heard discussed as a kid the heirarchy of beings on Earth. (Never were those discussions at my own home, which is why I distinguished a difference.) I can't just unwind and separate those threads.

 

That all said, I've now taken this down a path that is not specific to Trump, other than, since he became president, there is a distinct rise in activities of hate groups directed at minorities, Muslims, immigrants, etc. That he doesn't take a strong stance to disavow these groups is, imo, shameful and downright heinous.

[LaBombo]

 

I apologize. My comment was thoughtless considering it was a Christian holy day and considering events of the world. I should have waited to post that. I'm not a follower of any religion so I am often oblivious to the significance of the day. That's no excuse, however, and I do apologize for commenting as I did yesterday.

 

That said, I do stand by my comment, that in this country, the threat of terrorism is greater from within, from home grown individuals and groups, and that, while not labeled as such by anyone but me, I consider Christian terrorism among them. And yes, I do think many white supremacy groups and individuals believe that God ordained them superior and that those threads of religion and racism are intertwined. Levi accepts my example of violence at women's health clinics to be an example of this, but not my statement regarding white supremacy groups. Yes, perhaps the supression that I have experienced over the years in religious organizations has led to me to a rather hard and cynical opinions on that, but I have heard discussed as a kid the heirarchy of beings on Earth. (Never were those discussions at my own home, which is why I distinguished a difference.) I can't just unwind and separate those threads.

 

That all said, I've now taken this down a path that is not specific to Trump, other than, since he became president, there is a distinct rise in activities of hate groups directed at minorities, Muslims, immigrants, etc. That he doesn't take a strong stance to disavow these groups is, imo, shameful and downright heinous.

 

It's not like your goal was to give offense, and I get that you were specifically addressing domestic terrorism, so... apology accepted but not needed, I guess?

 

And it's entirely fair to say that hate groups like the KKK have co-opted biblical text and Christian symbols in an attempt to build a facade of divine justification, civic duty, or other false pretense to lend credibility to what is instead a 'belief' system based on hate.

 

Like Levi, I tend to see anti-abortion terrorists in a different light from hate groups with more peripheral connections to Christianity. They seem to believe their mission is mandated directly by scripture rather than vaguely justified by it, they generally don't rely on a social component to their affiliation, and they operate with a very specific goal against specific targets to cause terror in an effort to limit a specific freedom.

 

Put another way, the bible told them to save the babies and they don't care who they have to scare/hurt/kill to do it. There is no question as to either their goal or their motivation. That's religious terrorism.

 

As for the rest, everyone's life experiences inform their political leanings and concerns, and I can understand yours leading to the feelings you have. My concern is when resolve against terrorism connected to religion turns into a projection of guilt by association with that religion... no matter what that religion is. As long as that's not your intent, we're on the same side. I respect your opinions and my post yesterday was meant to express exasperation, not to justify a rebuke. 

 

 

[Squirrel]

It's not like your goal was to give offense, and I get that you were specifically addressing domestic terrorism, so... apology accepted but not needed, I guess?

 

And it's entirely fair to say that hate groups like the KKK have co-opted biblical text and Christian symbols in an attempt to build a facade of divine justification, civic duty, or other false pretense to lend credibility to what is instead a 'belief' system based on hate.

 

Like Levi, I tend to see anti-abortion terrorists in a different light from hate groups with more peripheral connections to Christianity. They seem to believe their mission is mandated directly by scripture rather than vaguely justified by it, they generally don't rely on a social component to their affiliation, and they operate with a very specific goal against specific targets to cause terror in an effort to limit a specific freedom.

 

Put another way, the bible told them to save the babies and they don't care who they have to scare/hurt/kill to do it. There is no question as to either their motive or the motivation. That's religious terrorism.

 

As for the rest, everyone's life experiences inform their political leanings and concerns, and I can understand yours leading to the feelings you have. My concern is when resolve against terrorism connected to religion turns into a projection of guilt by association with that religion... no matter what that religion is. If that's not your intent, then we're on the same side.

All fair and well put. This gives me something to mull over in how you have addressed it.

 

And yes, I think apologies are still due to anyone who took offense even if unintended. I understand the significance when pointed out. I just didn’t think about the significance at the time.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 Levi accepts my example of violence at women's health clinics to be an example of this, but not my statement regarding white supremacy groups. Yes, perhaps the supression that I have experienced over the years in religious organizations has led to me to a rather hard and cynical opinions on that, but I have heard discussed as a kid the heirarchy of beings on Earth. (Never were those discussions at my own home, which is why I distinguished a difference.) I can't just unwind and separate those threads.

 

I would just suggest that perhaps you've let those personal experiences become a brush you're painting far too broadly with.  The poor folks in Louisiana were attacked because they were Christian, but you seem to have equated all acts of racism and white supremacy with Christian.  Frankly, that's just way out of line with reality.  

 

But I totally understand the bitterness with religion.  I share it and I sometimes have to remind myself not to let it out.  Case in point, we're in the adoption process and here in Arizona we have to take a class to be licensed and it is super churchy.  As in constant Bible references and conversations.  It makes my blood boil and annoys me, but I have to remember it matters to these people.  It's their reason for getting involved to help kids and I have to let my own disdain go.  It was making me irrationally upset in the classes. Maybe you've let your personal feelings push you past the point where your opinions no longer have factual validation.  

[PseudoSABR]

Poll: Trump approval sinks 5 points after Mueller report, tying all-time low

His approval is at 39%

Only 34% support impeachment (59% of Dems).

 

(I think it will take Mueller testifying to bring that impeachment number up). 

[TheLeviathan]

I really hope impeachment is tabled.  There may be merit in it but people don't want it.  The Senate won't finish the job.  And by the time you wrap it up it's 2020 anyway and that could be a point Trump hammers to victory.

 

It needs to be squashed.  Do the hearings, get Mueller on the record, use it to win in 2020...but do not do impeachment proceedings.

[biggentleben]

 

I really hope impeachment is tabled.  There may be merit in it but people don't want it.  The Senate won't finish the job.  And by the time you wrap it up it's 2020 anyway and that could be a point Trump hammers to victory.

 

It needs to be squashed.  Do the hearings, get Mueller on the record, use it to win in 2020...but do not do impeachment proceedings.

 

I think impeachment before 2020 is asking for death for the Democratic party in the 2020 election.

 

There are many who are on the fence politically in this country at the moment - fed up with voting for a President who has delivered essentially nothing promised (and made life much, much worse for many of those he specifically targeted with promises), but also still very wary of the entire "swamp" of Washington. Wading (very intentional word choice) into impeachment proceedings will show that group on the fence that those in Washington are more concerned with proving a point than actually getting things done.

 

Like Lev said...get Mueller on record, let the dozen active investigations that were handed over due to evidence obtained in the Mueller investigation work out (reportedly some of which would get Donald pretty bad once out of office as they refer back to actions before he was in office and would be prosecutable at a state level, so he may be "f'd" once he's out of office as well). Focus on pushing as much real policy in front of the Senate and in front of Trump as possible over the next 18 months. His inaction on that action by legislators will speak louder than anything furthering Mueller's report could do at this point.

[PseudoSABR]

 

 Wading (very intentional word choice) into impeachment proceedings will show that group on the fence that those in Washington are more concerned with proving a point than actually getting things done.

Does that group care nothing about the rule of law?

 

I get the political pitfalls, but deciding not to enforce the rule of law because of political backlash seems particularly unseemly to me.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Does that group care nothing about the rule of law?

 

I get the political pitfalls, but deciding not to enforce the rule of law because of political backlash seems particularly unseemly to me.

 

No, they don't.

 

Especially since the enforcement you are talking about is not clear cut. 

[biggentleben]

 

Does that group care nothing about the rule of law?

 

I get the political pitfalls, but deciding not to enforce the rule of law because of political backlash seems particularly unseemly to me.

 

Except there are legal proceedings still ongoing. Those very well could engulf very important pieces of the Trump cabinet, campaign, and family. Right now, one major concern is that impeachment procedures would not be able to prove guilt enough to actually impeach.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Except there are legal proceedings still ongoing. Those very well could engulf very important pieces of the Trump cabinet, campaign, and family. Right now, one major concern is that impeachment procedures would not be able to prove guilt enough to actually impeach.

In my proceeding post, I was remiss to mention that it's important to get people on record that they don't think obstruction of justice is an impeachable offense.  I think getting too calculated about the election can easily lose it as well.  Criticism of Trump could easily turn into: well, why didn't you impeach!

[Badsmerf]

Newsflash: Trump isn't losing and is still OUR all president! You don't have to LOVE him but you HAVE to respect him.

-SouthSideBilly

Respect is earned not given, and he has yet to earn mine. I respect the office, does he?

[PseudoSABR]

 

Respect is earned not given, and he has yet to earn mine. I respect the office, does he?

Don't feed the troll.

[Badsmerf]

Don't feed the troll.

Did somebody say the TROLPO?