POTUS Donald Trump

[LaBombo]

 

The 'whataboutism' with conservative America is a truly dangerous matter. I'm glad you agree that Trump is bad. 

 

That said, I certainly haven't read every page in this thread but just looking over the last ten pages and no one but you has used "Nazi" so I'm not sure people are doing what you allege. And what you allege if frankly a non-issue. There is absolutely no comparison about violent extremism in America. The rightwing is far more violent and has committed far more acts of terror in America. It's not even close. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/09/28/right-wing-warnings-pose-far-more-danger-america-than-left-wing-violence/?utm_term=.e0b225e12462

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/why-does-the-far-right-hold-a-near-monopoly-on-political-violence/

 

Posted under general politics here in the TD sports bar forum.

 

 

"If the discussion we are having now, is about voter turnout.... I think democrats have to get dirty. Republicans use fear? They need to use fear. Hammer use fear to motivate people to vote, and people to change sides. Obviously, that is a message democrats are terrible at.

Get pundits on faux news that can put people in a box. Harp on corporations and big money controlling the gop. Call republicans Nazis as much as possible. without doing it too much. Show how weak Trump is. End citizens United."

 

Bolding added by me. I'm leaving the name off because I'm not looking to rip individuals, and to the extent that I know him or her, I like the person who posted it.

 

Your assumption that I'm being dishonest because I'm not a down-with-the-cause liberal is duly noted, however. And I hope you will forgive me for not taking the time to deconstruct far left editorials posted as fact.

[Craig Arko]

Perhaps a better comparison is the decaying Roman Empire under Nero. If we’re lucky there still might be a Marcus Aurelius in our future sometime. Before the end.

[Badsmerf]

I absolutely see the message of the Trump gop as a Nazi message. I have absolutely no shame in stating that. Not all republicans follow. I'm a huge John Kasich fan. There was a guy once that said they are who we thought they were. When someone walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, they are a duck.

 

Did we forget what led to the rise of Nazism? Nationalism. Anti sematic. Populism. Xenophobia. And the most commonly attributed quality is the purity of the Aryan race. But it didn't start there. Hitler took over the party in 1921, it wasn't until decades later they began killing people. Years of propaganda and lies. There is every possibility this could happen again.

[Badsmerf]

I do not have enough faith in our society to believe we are above repeating history. Like I said in the other thread, I live in Steve Kings district. I talk to my neighbors, I see their Facebook posts... The degradation of values and compassion is startling. The similarities to how Nazism began is also startling. It isn't ludicrous to call an extreme right wing person a Nazi... because that is exactly what Nazis are.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

Your assumption that I'm being dishonest because I'm not a down-with-the-cause liberal is duly noted, however. And I hope you will forgive me for not taking the time to deconstruct far left editorials posted as fact.

I could have posted the studies themselves but they were linked in the article.

When I was growing up, the republicans were the "grown ups" who fixed the problems that the Democrats pointed out but couldn't figure out how to solve. We had republican leaders push through environmental laws, for crying out loud. Now the right is so sensitive they can't even bother to understand why things happen. They've become a loose collection of "victims" who can't learn about anything - they actively encourage ignorance - and yet are "experts" on everything. And this victimization fantasy leads to violent acts that we see constantly from the right and not the left.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't see the relevance of mentioning Sanders at all.  It's classic both-side-ism.  "Yeah, Trump does bad things, but did you know about those crazy, violent liberals?"

 

Yes, political extremism is bad all around, but one political persuasion has a monopoly on that, with only a few exceptions. 

 

Perhaps the distinction is less about the party though?  I don't think LaBombo is wrong to try and isolate the fact that someone like Trump or any other Republican probably isn't the one to point fingers at right now.  In fact, I think Trump is as much a symptom of the real problem as this individual.

 

IMO, the issue lies with the significant way we have turned from disagreement to reviling our political opponents.  And while I blame the Republicans more for creating that trend, there is no doubt it's thick right now.  I wouldn't blame the Republicans for this individual, but I might place more blame on them for a slightly different conversation (but I think important distinction) that has enflamed this trend.

[PseudoSABR]

Calling someone a Nazi, or a racist isn't remotely the same thing as inciting violence.  

 

These kind of comparisons minimize what's going on not just on the far right, but in the right's base, spread out in rallies across the country.  

[PseudoSABR]

 

Perhaps the distinction is less about the party though?  I don't think LaBombo is wrong to try and isolate the fact that someone like Trump or any other Republican probably isn't the one to point fingers at right now.  In fact, I think Trump is as much a symptom of the real problem as this individual.

 

IMO, the issue lies with the significant way we have turned from disagreement to reviling our political opponents.  And while I blame the Republicans more for creating that trend, there is no doubt it's thick right now.  I wouldn't blame the Republicans for this individual, but I might place more blame on them for a slightly different conversation (but I think important distinction) that has enflamed this trend.

I couldn't disagree more.  The issue isn't extremism on both sides.  It's that one-side's extremism has become it's rallying cry.  Yes, there is violence on the left.  But it is not front and center to the belief-system that the left is selling.  Moving from Hillary to Bernie, doesn't get somehow more violent, because suddenly we're interested in socialism (sharing is so much like violence!).  

 

For a long time, there's been a core of othering on the right.  Clinton did that somewhat behind closed doors with her deplorable line, but it was not a feature of her campaign. 

 

In my opinion, it's god-damn cowardly how the right washes their hands of the culture violence that they've been stocking for decades.    (But never forget there's some bad people on the left! Let's make sure and mention that!)

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

More white, "christian" male violence from the right....but, hey, muslims.....and POTUS blames the victims by saying they should have had more security. 

[Mike Sixel]

I'd politicize the **** out of this week's violence, and remind people that they could be next. If you aren't straight, white, and "Christian", you have no place in this POTUS' world (and women only exist to please men). Hit this message hard....do you want a melting pot, or do you want what this GOP is selling? There are plenty of quotes and film to use.....

[TheLeviathan]

 

I couldn't disagree more.  The issue isn't extremism on both sides.  It's that one-side's extremism has become it's rallying cry.  Yes, there is violence on the left.  But it is not front and center to the belief-system that the left is selling.  Moving from Hillary to Bernie, doesn't get somehow more violent, because suddenly we're interested in socialism (sharing is so much like violence!).  

 

For a long time, there's been a core of othering on the right.  Clinton did that somewhat behind closed doors with her deplorable line, but it was not a feature of her campaign. 

 

In my opinion, it's god-damn cowardly how the right washes their hands of the culture violence that they've been stocking for decades.    (But never forget there's some bad people on the left! Let's make sure and mention that!)

 

I didn't mean to give off the idea that there was extremism on both sides in the sense of violence, more that hate towards the other side is pretty high on both sides.  This bomber and Trump are symptoms of that.  On the right, however, it manifests in a more ugly and violent way.  I won't (and can't, it's a fact) disagree with it - the left is not as violent.  But there is some dangerous level of, maybe hate isn't the right word....discord?....between people.

 

I've said before that the right operates more out of fear and they generally always have.  The people they woo to their voting bloc are more prone to fear (older populations, less culturally diverse populations) so it plays well.

 

I was simply saying I wouldn't blame Trump for this.  I don't think that's the correct takeaway.  But I do blame right-wing media and propagandists over the last several decades.  Not only for this bomber, but for Trump himself.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I was simply saying I wouldn't blame Trump for this.  I don't think that's the correct takeaway.  But I do blame right-wing media and propagandists over the last several decades.  Not only for this bomber, but for Trump himself.

So you think without Trump this would have happened? (Or some equally reprehensible tea-party right winger leading our country).  I don't.  

 

Whether or not we can hold Trump directly responsible isn't really point, he and the right's rhetoric and how they position themselves among disparate groups is a major contributing factor.   And again, honestly, this kind of both-sides talk, minimizes the right's contribution to this culture of violence/normalized extremism.   I mean what should those on the left do, to avoid being labeled as also extreme, shut-up and take it? Because I think that's the only way to evade this lame both-sides argument.

[TheLeviathan]

 

So you think without Trump this would have happened? (Or some equally reprehensible tea-party right winger leading our country).  I don't.  

 

Whether or not we can hold Trump directly responsible isn't really point, he and the right's rhetoric and how they position themselves among disparate groups is a major contributing factor.   And again, honestly, this kind of both-sides talk, minimizes the right's contribution to this culture of violence/normalized extremism.   I mean what should those on the left do, to avoid being labeled as also extreme, shut-up and take it? Because I think that's the only way to evade this lame both-sides argument.

 

I do think it would've happened with or without Trump.  Just like I think a Trump-like candidate was inevitable even if Trump lost.  I think your second paragraph completely ignored most of what I said, so I won't directly respond to it.

 

The right is to blame (not exclusively, but much more so) for the discord in our society.  It's the seeds that have been sown for a long time by the right that lead to this guy and to Trump IMO.

 

I don't know how the left combats that discord.  I don't know how independents combat that.  I really don't.  I'm not sure fighting fire with fire helps or if ignoring it helps (I'm not sure that's possible) or if fighting fire with love.  I honestly don't know.  I'm just stating my opinion that his actions are a reflection on a long-term problem that has slowly been building.  I'd like to hope we've hit the crescendo, but I'm not certain of that either.

[Badsmerf]

All this violence in the name of hate, and Trump will continue with the rallies. LaBombo, you criticized me for the Nazi remarks. I'm interested if you still find my comments reaching too far?

 

I reached my breaking point with the gop long ago. Trump certainly is a consequence of the rhetoric, as are these acts of violence. Perhaps the party learns after Trump, but I think it might be too late. As long as people like Rush Limbaugh (who still says they bomber could be a false flag), and Tucker Carlson directing the narrative, the party will continue down this dangerous path.

[TheLeviathan]

Has the right started spinning this tragedy yet? Guy had some semi-disparaging remarks about Trump. Probably will be saying Soros hired him as part of his continually nefarious schemes.

[ashbury]

Soros hired him as part of his continually nefarious schemes.

... against his own DNA.

 

_{^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros : Soros was born in Budapest in the Kingdom of Hungary to a well-to-do non-observant Jewish family}}

[Badsmerf]

... against his own DNA.

 

_{^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros : Soros was born in Budapest in the Kingdom of Hungary to a well-to-do non-observant Jewish family}}

Details... Since when does those factor into emotional responses?

[PseudoSABR]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1056700376718684160

[D. Hocking]

He just tweeted the media is the "true enemy of the people" and again is blaming them for everything. 

 

I don't think he has said one thing about the victims since it happened, but did have time to tweet his baseball criticisms pointing out that someone complimented him and start his rally with a joke about his hair looking bad because he had to take questions in the rain talking to reporters (about the shooting) just hours after the shooting.

 

During that time he also called Tom Steyer wacky, ignoring the fact that he also was a pipe bomb target.

 

He cannot even fake having empathy or caring or being human anymore for more than one teleprompter speech.

[gunnarthor]

 

He just tweeted the media is the "true enemy of the people" and again is blaming them for everything. 

 

I don't think he has said one thing about the victims since it happened, but did have time to tweet his baseball criticisms pointing out that someone complimented him and start his rally with a joke about his hair looking bad because he had to take questions in the rain talking to reporters (about the shooting) just hours after the shooting.

 

During that time he also called Tom Steyer wacky, ignoring the fact that he also was a pipe bomb target.

 

He cannot even fake having empathy or caring or being human anymore for more than one teleprompter speech.

Yep. All his politics aside, Donald Trump is also just a bad human being. 

[Squirrel]

 

Yep. All his politics aside, Donald Trump is also just a bad human being. 

I've been saying this since the beginning of time. His policies are one thing, but what I am most vocal about is that he is a vile human being and has no care for anyone or anything but himself.

 

[gunnarthor]

Jen Rubin is a conservative columnist at the Post. I think this article today was pretty good.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/10/29/enough-platitudes-lets-name-names/?utm_term=.281228470888

 

"In sum, we all have a tendency is to talk about “hate” or “bigotry” as if such sentiments were inanimate objects. We have to root it out. We have to combat it. But there is no “it” — there are people who say, write and do hateful things. And they should be held accountable. Let’s end the lazy thinking and the moral denseness. Lots of people have behaved in ways that degrade our culture and give oxygen and inspiration to dangerous people. We should call them out — by name — and implore them to do better."

[TheLeviathan]

That's one damn fine paragraph right there.

[USAFChief]

 

That's one damn fine paragraph right there.

It's one damn fine opinion, from start to finish.

[Mr. Brooks]

It is, but it won't make a lick of difference. Because the media is the enemy and criticism of our dear leader (and by extension, anyone who thinks like him) is "fake news".

[Squirrel]

 

It's one damn fine opinion, from start to finish.

Yeah ... I reposted it on FB and had a very difficult time trying to decide what to highlight ... so I did the opening, something from the middle and that summation above. Most excellent.

 

The Atlantic also had a good article, too.

 

Of course the minute I post these things, I get a couple of 'friends' who decry the Democrats as the ones really responsible in order to make Trump look bad. The few who still follow me, anyway.

[Mr. Brooks]

I happened to flip over to WCCO radio on my way home.

Jordana Green, who is Jewish, opened the 3 o'clock hour with a very powerful, and at times personal, monologue about the Pittsburgh shooting.

I don't know if they podcast, but if they do, I think it's a must listen.

[Mr. Brooks]

Trump is going to issue an executive order overturning birthright citizenship.

Is that unconstitutional? Yes. Will that matter? Nope. Not with his minions firmly in control of SCOTUS now. It's no coincidence he waited until after the Kavanaugh process to do this.

 

This is just the first step towards him seizing dictatorial control, watch.

 

Edit: Second step, actually. First was getting yes men on SCOTUS.

[stringer bell]

I responded doubting this would happen. I have now found the news report. I guess I shouldn’t doubt the lengths that Trump will go.

[gunnarthor]

Attacking the citizenship of Americans based on their parentage is a new low for Trump. I remember this BS came up in 2010 or so and was struck down pretty quickly by leaders in both parties. I worked for a non-profit in the south at the time and was quoted in the local paper saying that the issue had been decided well over 100 years ago by the Supreme Court and someone in the comment section said he didn't know who I was but that I should go and read the constitution. I guess those mouth breathers are more powerful now.